Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

We are going to fix the 410 car count woes with a crate engine?

I hear Shatz drove some NEW G.M. crate engine and found it to be acceptable.

Hear are a few ideas, simple ideas, I know I couldn't possibly be a smart as ALL of the folks out there but these are my thoughts anyhow.

2.5' fuel injection. So the injections can be sleeved if need be, run what you have at little or no cost. Anyone that thinks the 3' fuel injection has a place in affordable 410 sprint car racing is DRUNK!!!!

14 to 1 compression ratio. Lets see unless you are the Kahn team or the Stewart team or somehow affiliated, how does an open compression ratio number help anything that resembles affordable competitive 410 sprint car racing? Anyone who think 16 to 1 is the answer is completely IGNORANT!!!!! This at the cost of a set of pistons, or for the guys who aren't that high in compression now maybe some machine work or creative gasket work. Don't give me any S^&T about policing this, people have been successfully policing compression for years.

8000 RPM rev limiter. Lets see, 10,000 gazillion RPM with a push rod engine?????? Lets see, any place at all in the branks of affordable 410 sprint car racing???????????? Realistically how many ignitions are out there??? They all provide chips for rev limiters. Hell they could be community chips kind of like race-cievers. Lets see cost????? What the hell do chips cost?????

That's it, you know some day a specific intake gasket or something but these THESE THREE SIMPLE THINGS WOULD SAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS A YEAR PER RACE TEAM PER YEAR.

P E R I O D!!!!

Keep the frickin NASCAR crate engine. Leave the whole spec engine thing to the Indy car folks. Let the creative builder have some fun, let the ennergetic home builder stand a chance.

WAKE THE F&^K UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Emmet Hahn knew this was coming!!!!! And NO ONE backed him up!!!!!

LETS SEE, DO YOU THINK ANY OF THIS THINKING COULD BE APPLIED TO THE THRIVING (NOT) MIDGET POPULATION????

I LOVE 410 RACING. SORRY THERE AREN'T ANY 360s THAT WILL EVER COMPARE.

GOD HELP US.

Fastrip

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

And what does that engine cost?

What does that engine have to do with NASCAR anyway?

Your idea will not slow them down so that a 360 won't run with it?

I am not sure God really cares about your racing so I don't think he would be helping a lot. I think we have bigger problems that we need Him for.

Um...coffee anyone?

I have no problem letting these cars go back to the days of "run what ya brung". But back in those days you were able to put together a complete car and motor for around $5,000 and race for $1,000 - $1,500 fairly easily multiple times a week with less maintenance. Now we have a complete car and motor costing upwards of $70,000 and race for the same money is in some places only once a week. Even the WoO only pay's $10,000 to win which if you get your calculator out is a considerable difference still.

Of course the above figures do nto include the difference in transporting the vehicles, the family station wagon pulling an open air trailer versus the $250,000 rigs we see today....

On the other hand, I would like to see a little more cost saving efforts for the drivers and teams. The crate motor seems fine to me if someone wants to buy one, a series or weekly track will allow it, and a person can have it serviced for a good cost.

I wonder if some of the guys who we watched raced when we were younger had to deal with the costs of today back then (adjusted by inflation of course), if they would have raced or would have raced something else. Just a thought.

Lets see wht does that engine cost?

Your existing engine, lasting a full season now instead of 8-10 nights, the cost of injection sleeves, pistons and a chip. how is that outlandish?

Hey VANH, You don't see any crate engine crap in NASCAR? Lets see tehy serialize every part of every engine (saving lots of money there). No one wants to go that way.

You think even a restricted 410 wouldn't be a better option then a restricted 360? Sure the 360 are a nice show but I am a displacement guy, always will be. You can not top the recovery power of a good 410 in a sprint car.

I am pretty sure God is in every aspect of everyones life. I am pretty sure he cares more then most realize, about every little thing. Heck I am sure God is a 410 sprint car fan, no doubt.

Hey MASSive FAN

Have you bought any transporter fuel lately? Have you been to the race track 2 hours before the show and home 2-3 hours after? Have you spent your own hard earned money on any race car components? How would anything I suggested raise the costs?

I don't buy transporter fuel, I do show at the track early and stay late, I have bought parts. I see the money, I see the people fighting to keep a car on the track. I see numbers dwindle. Why wouldn't such simple suggestion at least be considered? I just don't know why.

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

I am interested in the better good of 410 sprint car racing.

I don't want to fight, although I will occasionally debate.

I do not see everyone dumping the parts they have and going to crate engines as the answer.

I am often inspired to ask for God's help. Like I said, he is definately the number one 410 fan.

Have fun with this post, have a good day.

Off to the races,

Fastrip

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

If you're a displacement guy then how does 429 CI sound to you? What would be the problem with instituting your rules for the existing 410's and allowing the new crate engine to run with them? They would be similiar in HP right? That way new teams have an option to buy a new competitive motor that lasts 25+ races for 20 grand and the existing teams can still use the equipment they have already invested in.

A

At the risk of getting into a pi$$ing match with you I am going to respond.

Do I currently or have I in the past bought transporter fuel lately? I have. I'm not sure why you are bringing up fuel, but I will bite. Many on this board that really know me know that I have helped out many racers over the years in many different areas. Maybe not your favorite drivers, but most of mine. Have I bought parts? Again, I have, maybe not for your guy, but for those I choose to help out, usually kept quiet about it so I don't inherit some additional "friends". Why the hell am I even responding to you about this, how I spend my money and the closeness I am to the sport is none of your business.

You missed my point though. There is, and always will be, a place for both types of engines and operations to exist. My point, and if you can take of your displacement blinders and desires for a second, is that everytime we have a new "restricted" series or program that comes out tracks and series think it is the green light for lowering purses, which I do not want to see happen. Example, there is a huge difference between the 3 classes that run at Knoxville, 410, 360, 305 in purses. The 410's and the 360's at K-ville can run the same dollar wise from the garage to the track, but there is a considerable difference in purse and points fund. The 305's are already starting to get out of hand as far as dollars are concerned, with an even lower purse.

I am all for a restricted or crate series or weekly program, I just want to see the purses stay competitive and some what profitable for the drivers and teams. I think when you get down to it, you will see that you and I are pretty close to being on the same page as far as the original thought, negating the need for your rant on me about buying fuel and parts.

Member of this message board since 1997

Racing ANYTHING has never been cheap .........enough...... for those running mid pack and back .....speaking of DRUNK ....I know a guy that has a cart his kid races at English Creek ... (what little racing they've done this year ...thanks NWS) ..but I have no reason to doubt what he told me they spent in '08 an '09 and that is pretty much for trophies ....in those 2 years just towing 40 miles or so and maybe racing and practicing 25 times .......over 6 grand (not including his initial investment of carts, engines and a trailer)

You can make the number ONE touring sprint car series in the country a 305 c.i. steel block, steel head series and there are going to be owners and teams and drivers spending BIG $$$$ (20 times more than some) out the ying-yang and we'll be having the same chat a few years from now.

I don't disagree costs are high and teams are dropping here and there ... but I would offer the economy is more the problem ....than engine costs.. the IRA seems to be doing okay with cars (number of) and they have the basic same rules as the WoO.

360 racing was supposed to be the 'answer' but IMHO I see a bigger a disparity between the top echelon 360's at Knoxville and the bottom (example: Randy Martin vs. Alan Zoutte) than I do between the 410's.

I think a cubic inch rule, injector diameter size and no 'ti' rotating parts in engine ... along with a wing size/design and the wickerbill rule then your car with driver included weight rule are about it.

(yeah ...yeah yeah ..... wheel sizes and tire compounds and dozens of other ideas can be thrown in there .... just trying to keep it on the cost factors not ideas of better racing rules.)

If the WoO as we know it now (drivers, owners, cars, trailers and 'circus') became a 305 series ... the crowds will still come .... it's about the 'drivers and owners names' and the racing ... not the c.i. displacement or horsepower numbers.

When the ASCS (or USA or what ever letter you want to call a series) can get ALL the Kahne and Stewart cars and Kinser, Schatz, Sides, Dollansky, Meyers, Saladana and Lasoski for their drivers + a some others I have missed .... and it has to be ALL of them........

Then Hahn and company (or WXYZ) will have a marketable NATIONWIDE series to promoters.

Until then .... who ever can keep the above teams and names together as a series (and the others I didn't mention) as 100% loyal followers ....they will basically make many of the rules and be in charge.

R.A.

S.H.S.

In the current situation (i.e. purses, parts, etc...) you are 110% correct, I agree. I appreciate your coverage on the LS1 engine program Hawker, it's been very insightful.

If you are going to restrict the current engines that are already out there, IMO, there should be a fair balance between compensation and requirements to where it does not hurt the racers.

I have never driven, owned or even sponsored a race car but it goes with out saying that the teams with the most money will always have at least a slight advantage no matter what the rules are. My extreme novice input would be to increase the weight to 1400 with the driver, use flat 16 or 20 square foot top wings, harder narrower tires and no engine rules. Couldn't a guy build or buy a good motor pretty "cheap" that produces 800 HP? Might weigh more but if the weight rules are reasonable it it might matter less.

there is a few teams at my local track (ocean in nor cal)that is still towing with an old open trailer yes thy my be towing it with a Denali (u know hoo u are lol)but still.----and thy all do pretty darn good so i don't believe a $250,000 rig helps em go fast get rid of the rigs and go with open big-blocks or as thy say run what ya brung let the teams that want/can dump $40,000 into a motor do it but let the low $ teams play with whatever thy can. remember the world of outlaws best years where before the book ooh ya one more thing the championship should be contested with and without the crutches (wings for u newbees)

Robert Bond    San Jose Ca

Wake up yourself. You say you like 410 racing but you want to change it so it is more like what you don't like? Awsome sprint cars should never be affordable! Its an oxymoron. I am a car salesman that knows he can't afford racing against Tony Stewart or John Zemitis. Working stiffs like me want to go the races, buy a 30 dollar ticket and see something great....not regulated, watered down and restricted. Why do you want to piss on the camp fire? There are umpteen other divisions with all kinds of rules to try to keep the cost down. Go watch them instead of trying to deball what is still at least somewhat cool.

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

Big names with no horsepower is like a book with no words

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

First off I think its funny, the guys that take offense to anyone pissing on or watering down THEIR 410 sprint cars. Hey, you and the 11 other guys across the country with enough budget to run with the Outlaws I will always take my hat off to.

I believe as I do. Three simple, relatively inexpensive limitations, that could save millions of dollars a year.

Sure the Outlaws will probably always win, limitations or not, lets see, they run 60-70-80-90-100+ races a year. Who do you suppose is going to have things figured out? It's what they do. Why do tracks with 30-40 cars on a regular basis only have 26-28 cars(including the Outlaws) show for an Outlaw show?

Hell besides Dale Blaney and maybe of course Tim Shaffer and maybe one of the Kaedings and maybe a Rahmer or Kaufman or Smith (all of which, if the planets align and the earth shakes (and Swindell blows a GOODYEAR and Shatz has his 48 lap motor in for a 50 lap race, Kinser and Saldana hurt motors and Lasoski never really gets things rolling and on and on)) and a few other posse members or Knoxville regulars regularly race for a top 5 or even a win.

All of these clubs all over, spending billions and billions to have something that would be legal (and like I said occasionally competitive) with the Outlaws. I would think with a few simple rules the number of competitive home track racers would jump, and push the travelers to new heights.

Purses depend on full seats, seats are easier to fill if an occasional local has the slightest chance to win and the locals might even try if they thought they might have the remotest chance of being competitive. I believe the show would be as good or better then ever.

I seem to read more and more of dwindling car counts and empty seats (all while trying to keep equipment that would equal Outlaw rules). I love 410 racing, a love that started in the late 70s when a freind dragged me to Eldora to watch a couple of young prodigys swap slide jobs and slice through traffic (like it wasn't there). I was from then on sold and names like Swindell and Kinser have always had a special place in my life.

I don't like to say this but the late model folks seem to be doing pretty good for thenselves. I know around here they put on an excellent show (for taxi cabs) with more engine combinations then I personally know.

Indy car is spec racing and their car counts and fan base shows it (can't or don't care to know how to pronounce the names if they didn't come from the sprint car scene like years past).

NASCAR is spec racing, if anyone doesn't understand that they are really living with their heads wrapped with their Dale Jr. shirts way to tight.

Now we want to go to a spec engine, that is what this whole thread was about in the first place. You worry about pissing on or wattering down anything, the spec engine really makes me Indy car/NASCAR nervous.

Three simple, inexpensive, better for longevity, rules, that was my idea in the first place, not some ASA/Focus engine package. And yes any way it goes the likes of Swindell, Kinser, Saldana, Shatz and all the travelers will definately still be fast. I'd sure like to try to beat them on a home track. I can't say I would try or know many who will as it is, not that they don't have 'Outlaw equipment'.

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

" but I am a displacement guy, always will be." = small d*ck syndrome.....LOL

Take it to the Top & let it Rock

What's the difference if it's a sleeved down, compression limited, rev limited, $40,000 750 HP 410 or a $20,000 stock 750 HP 429? The whole idea was to develop a stock sprint engine that could be competitive with the 410's at a fraction of the cost. The 410 limit is part of the reason engine costs are out of control. Your love affair with the 410's couldn't have started when you saw the WOO in the late 70's because there was no such thing as a 410 then. It was run watcha brung, no limits. The 410 rule didn't start until 1985.

A

bingo 

Robert Bond    San Jose Ca