Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Why isn't their any big non-wing 360 series out there? Hahn has seemed to be doing a great job with the TNT Bandit series but they only run a few times a year and it is a 410 series. Seems to me that with so many more 360 sprint cars out there than 410's that it would make sense to have a non-wing 360 series. More car count, fans would love it. I'm talking about a "national" non-wing 360 series, I don't mean switching the USAC non-wingers to 360's, I'm talking a whole new series. ASCS seems to get the idea that in order to pick up new fans you have to hit bigger markets, the ASCS tour does a pretty decent job of hitting a lot of areas, still could be better but its way better than USAC as far as exposure to different markets.

Maybe run some exhibition 360 sprint races in conjunction with ASCS national events? or even their regional series? I really like winged racing, and non-wing racing is even better. Tim Crawley won the TNT race at I-30 a couple months back with a 360, a 360 winning in a 410 race. Not likely to happen in winged racing.

With the Knoxville Non-wing nats coming up on sunday, and then osky on tuesday, it will be interesting to see in any new interest comes about for more non-wing races. Lets have a decent discussion and try not to be drama queens.

Well there isn't any "national" non wing 360 groups. What is "national" anyways? Well that's another discussion.

But there is the ASCS Canyon Region in AZ and now they've jumped into CA. There's the USAC West Coast group. In the Northwest there are two rival groups, the Northwest Wingless Tour and the Oregon Sprint Car Association. In Florida there is the Checkered Flag Sprints. While none of these have huge schedules it does provide an opportunity to run a 360 without the wing. I think the reason that there isn't a "national" group is because there is so much winged racing, both 410 and 360. Let's face it the only real places that run non wings period are AZ, CA, IN and a few other places that run some sportsman type of stuff. Winged racing is where the money is, often times non wing is where the better racing is. JMO.

I have wondered the same thing for a couple years now.

We have the HRA 360 wingless series which tours parts of Iowa and South Dakota that gets 15-25 cars a night, but their payout is a joke compared to USAC or ASCS.

Without the wing, high horsepower motors aren't needed. So I think a national 360 wingless series is a good idea, you could greatly cut motor costs from the 410 series.

Another idea - How about a sealed motor wingless series???

All you have to do is get a crowd so you can pay a decent purse ,there are plenty of cars you just have get a crowd

Ideas are easy to get money to make it happen is harder

I am not trying to be a smart butt here but it takes a place to have the race,money to put it on and a crowd to pay for it. By the way the purse is a small part of the expense

Van:

Are you saying that people won't come to watch a wingless 360 series?

If the payout is good, the cars will come (look at the ASCS). There are many more 360s in the country than 410s. If car counts are good, and the track is prepped right there will be good racing.

Will people not pay to see a full field of wingless 360s? The difference in speed between a wingless 360 and 410 is not much, or at least alot less than in winged cars.

JMO

I dont think he's saying people wouldnt come, just takes somebody to step up and put in the sweat equity and put up the money to get it going. I'm sure an ASCS 360 Non-Wing National series would be just as popular as the winged series with time.

and i might be wrong here (ive never raced full size sprint cars) but I would assume that running non-wing races for the same money would attract more cars interested in making money because the wear and tear on the cars would be less I assume. slower speeds = less hanging rpm = less wear on the motor = less wear on the chassis (unless you get upside down) and less wear on the parts. Also you wouldnt have to keep up with the Wing game and worry about having spare wings and tearing them up. No 275 dollar titanium wing trees to destroy, just hurts more when you flip, non-wing flips seem to be more violent

I've long thought that if someone put together a spec/sealed motor non wing series on the west coast, you could consolidate all these odd ball classes (i.e., SPEC sprints, Sprint 100s, Mini Sprints, Pro 4's, Six Shooters, etc.) that only pull a handful of cars. Get all these guys together into an affordable class, and let them have at it. I really think it would work, the cars would be well matched and competitive, there sure as hell is some talent in ALL those fields, the car count could be good, and the fans and racers would get one awesome show.

I'm sure there are details and nuances that I don't know anything about, and maybe it's a far fetched idea, but Alan Handy (maybe it was John Padjen... I don't remember) put together a winged car with a 'Vette LS6 (I think it was the LS6) motor in it. Thing was REALLY cool. Seal it, take the wings off, and let's race 'em! IROC on dirt!

I've mentioned a 360 nonwing series, too. It makes a LOT of sense.

I used to think that the ASCS could do what the WoO did in its infancy... run what the local rules were. You had big wing races, little PA wing races, nonwing races... now THAT is a championship!

Goodyear tire races, Hoosier tire races, nonwing races... would THAT liven up the ASCS into a national power that people would pay to see? Maybe. I think if the purses were right that the cars would show. (not that the ASCS National events haven't had strong car counts) Many strides have been made to pay. The National races lately have had big winner's purse if nothing else.

It seems that the ASCS is built around regions that feed the national series. You may have 10 or so true national points chasers and the rest of the field is local/regional cars. Nothing wrong with that... it's logical.

Build up the regional series! Indiana is prime ground for ASCS nonwing regionals! California next. Build it up and the national series will make sense then.

I do not understand ,why change from 410

Engines last longer

Can't use big hp

can you run a 360 with a 410 non wing?

Are we trying to start something that is all ready there ?

360 nationals crowd?

Lots of cars and great racing and small crowd why ?

Because they are not 410s and if we like it or not that is what people come to see

I dont know about all that.......

if you combined the 360 and 410 nationals and schatz and kinser and all of the heroes ran 360's its not like people would stop coming. most people cant tell a difference in speed of a 360 and 410 with the naked eye unless there is a 360 and 410 up against each other in the same race.

It should be easy.

You simply need a sponsor, 20 full-time cars, at least 25 two-night race tracks, 750.00 to start, 300.00 tow money, 4K to win...and a few other "minor" things and...boom...you have your series.

Oh, it would probably help if those "25 tracks" also had a local series with same rules.

TSA...It's not a GROPE...it's a Freedom Pat!

Today's 360's are turning laps at the Knoxville weekly show within a second of the 410's. Another way to look at it, there are legendary drivers in the HOF that never came close to the speeds of today's 360's. The 410's take it up a notch, no doubt abut that, but the 360's are still Sprint Cars and a helluva lot more fun to watch than the gazillion stock car and modified classes up in my neck of the woods. The problem up here isn't that they're 360's, it's sitting through six or seven other classes to see three Heats, a couple Dashes and a Feature. We're working on resolving that but we've got a long ways to go.

Stan Meissner

Why are you guys trying to kill off the 360 class?

As far as California goes, I wouldn't say it's killing off the 360 non wings so much as collecting all the half-hearted classes and putting together one solid program. Why have the Pro-4's with 6 cars, the SPEC's with 15 cars, and the Six Shooters with 5 cars when you can make the sport more affordable for everyone and put on a 26 car show:?

Like I said before, I've got a hard on for spec racing, so I'd change from a 410 to a 360 program with the intention of a racer of going to his or her local GM dealer and ordering an injected motor out of the factory catalog, bolting it into a car, and being competitive for a fraction of the price of todays race motors.

I'm looking at this as a traveling 360 non-wing series on the west coast that would knock off all the morphidite, off the wall non wing "affordable" stuff that's been tried out here. Maybe it's not as feasible when you leave the left coast, and maybe I'm missing the point, but out here it's not un-common to see a guy run a 2 bbl cast iron headed SPEC motor that he just wrote a $15,000 check for. For that kind of money, and a trip to your local dealership (GM, Chrysler or Ford, take your pick) we could all have the same EXACT equipment, be competetive, do the admission paying fans a service and RACE!!

I'm not trying to make this a sealed motor discussion, so I'm sorry if that's where I'm headed. I've just long thought that it's a good solution for the money game that ends up in our racing world.

If you guys have your way and get this big 360 series going, the promotors are going to quit booking 410's when they can get twice the field for half the purse. So now the 410 guys have no where to race their 410's, so what do they do, they go 360 racing.

So far we have saved the promoters a bunch of money, and great, look at this we can race a $ 15 K engine and be competetive, whoopee! Oh wait, that guy who just dropped down from 410's- he's a stud-oh wait his-crew chief can read a track like I can read Curious George books- aw jeez-his engine guy works for the engine builder and can fuel that thing where mortals fear to tread.

Ok, now this isn't looking so good for me. What's second pay? Crap you mean eight of those 410 gus showed up, I just became mid pack. What do those guys have under the hood? Roush Yates 360's? what do those things cost? 35 grand? For a 360? For 2000 to win? You gotta be kidding me. We need a new class- these 360's are just too expensive....

Spec engine???

See "Focus Midget"

You're pleading my case for me.

We do need a new class (I'm talking specifically about Northern California). We have guys who have 2 bbl SPEC sprint motors that are built like hell wont have it. There are guys spending over $14k on CARBURETED cast iron headed motors. Believe me, we ran one blew one up, and buying the thing in the first place was one of the worst financial moves we ever made!

You're out to lunch if you think you need to spend $15k on a motor that will be competitive with everyone else (who is man enough to not cheat) that is running your spec division. You can buy an LS6 from Summit for $6200, all aluminum, intake and heads... bolt that thing in and lets go race. Yeah, it's only 400-ish h.p., but if everyone is making 400 h.p. for $6200, then let's go racing!

My dad told me a long time ago, "If everyone was racing a 15 h.p riding lawn mower, and you were going 3 wide for the lead, the crowd would still be on their feet, and you'd still be having fun."

First things first ,the fans make the racing possible and they do not turn out for 360 racing.

If you want to make it affordable then you need a spec. or a sealed motor.

I don't think a 4000 to win purse is going to get the drivers you need to entice the fans and I don't see todays promoters taking the risk[loss] to get a series started.

just my 2cents.