Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

There are a few debate subjects that I read on the HH board that make me stop and go hmmm. Now don't take this the wrong way because I can understand a Sprint Car fan not being into fenders or Mortifieds but one type of Sprint Car better than the other? The 410 vs 360 debate is the most amusing to me so I did a little research to make my point.

Nobody would deny the influence that legendary drivers have had on our sport. The interesting thing is that you'll hear people praise the legends and talk about some awesome race they saw 20 years ago then they'll blast 360's out of the other side of their mouth. So here is what I put together to make my case that all Sprint Car racing is good regardless of what's under the hood.

I'll use Knoxville track records for the sake of argument because they're readily available on the internet and because a lot of the 410 vs 360 complaints come from fans of the big half miles.

1961 Knoxville was a Supermodified track not to be confused with today's Mortifieds. Supermodifieds were basically Sprint Cars with bodies or if home built as close as they could get to that standard. Roy Robbins held the 1961 track record at 23 seconds flat. Judging by that today's 410 snobs would have got up and left the first Knoxville Nationals after hotlaps demanding their money back. I'd have given anything to be there, I was 10 years old at the time and those were cars I grew up watching.

By the way, the 19 second barrier was broken in 1973, the year I got out of the Navy. I was amazed at the progress we had made in only 12 years, today's 410 snobs would have whined about how slow they were.

1980 Doug Wolfgang holds a track record of 18.538, still too slow for some of today's Sprint Car fans.

1989, two records that year, Sammy Swindell clocks a lap of 16.211 early in the season which is subsequently lowered to under 15 seconds. I look around the stands and again all of today's 410 snobs got up and left.

Last October, the event is the Knoxville Late Model Nationals, quick time set by Shannon Babb at 19.757. 59 cars on hand, winner Scott Bloomquist. 410 fans wonder how these door stops plodding along at almost 20 seconds per lap can hold anybody's interest. Late Model fans are all hyped up by the "awesome" three and four wide racing and talk about how fast they were all the way home. Proof that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Last night July 3, 2010, 410 quick time 14.991, 360 quick time 15.985, a difference of .994 seconds. Sprint Car fans enjoy all of the racing and barely notice the .994 second difference, today's 360 drivers are flying compared to the legendary drivers of the past. The legends of days gone by that are still the subject of countless magazine articles in today's racing rags raced their entire careers without ever coming close to 15.985 seconds on a big half mile. Today's 410 fans are not impressed by the comparison.

Personally as someone who has seen it all spanning from the early 60's to present I don't see what the big deal is about .994 seconds. I'll never say that a 360 isn't a real Sprint Car or consider them less entertaining than a 410.

Stan Meissner

Send some of that rain to the east coast. PLEASE!!! We are way too dry.

Later, JERSEY

230+ tracks visited

2010-30,(2011)16,(2012)17,

(2013)21races-W.Gr(x2),Bridgeport(x2)/N Egypt(x2),Port 

Royal,Susky,Plymouth,Winchester,

Kokomo,Wall,GraysHar(x2)Gr.View 

SouthSound,Wash.,Willamette,Cot.Grove,

Southside,Langley VA,Orange Co.NY

I couldn't agree more with you Stan. Just to show all the 410 people how lame their argument is look at the June 19th, 2010 results from Knoxville Raceway. Clint Gardner set quick time in the 360's at 16.260. Ian Madsen was quick time in the 410's at 16.532. I'm surprised they all didn't get up and go home never to return. 360's have closed the gap. Sprint car racing is great no matter what size motor they have under the hood. Some of the best racing I've seen at Knoxville this year has been in the 305 class.

I'll see what I can do for you. I'm kinda partial to Jersey seeing as I spent two six months stints in Lakehurst going to catapult and arresting gear school back in the early 70's. Don't want to see that area dry up, I always liked it out there.

Stan Meissner

Great post Stan...I think you summed it up correctly by saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"...I too grew up in racing in the era that you did. Most of the younger fans on here have only been exposed to the modern day 410 rockets and that's what they enjoy, and it's understandable.

I have not met one old "veteran" (old, as in late 40's, mid-50's) that feels like the racing today is better that it was in the 70's or 80's. And it's all not because of the nostalgic fantasies of us old kooks. I like to take new people to the races to introduce them to the sport. 20 years ago I didn't have to "sell" it to them...they saw a few races and were hooked...these days you take them to a 410 winged race for the first time and as soon as they throw the green for hot laps there eyes grow big and you think you got them...But, two hours later following hot-laps, Time trials, and follow the leader heat racing, you start seeing doubt in there eyes..."don't they ever pass?"

Now don't get me wrong here, I enjoy 410 and 360 Winged racing..once you get to the A-Mains youre gonna see some good racing....and, I don't think there is anything better in Winged racing than a WoO A-Main, awesome cars, awesome drivers. But, I just think the 3 hours you sit there to get to the A's is a little stale...

5 years ago, I wouldn't have been seen at an IMCA Modified or a Late Model Race if my life depended on it. Thankfully, I have changed my views. I am still a sprint car fan #1, but if you want to see some side by side racing and passing ALL night long, go to one of Iowa's numerous short tracks and check them out! The modifieds actually remind me of watching non-wing sprinters in the 70's.

I guess I am fortunate, no long lasting biases which allow me to enjoy all forms of dirt track racing.

I do not believe the one lap record was lowered to under 15 seconds in 1989!! I know it is a typo but I had to jab you about it (-:

When the track slicks off the 410's are turning high 16's and even low 17's in the A. The old scoreboard at Knoxville used to show lap times during the races as well as average lap speeds.

I'm always amazed at how fast the 360's look when they hot lap first. They only look a little slower when the 410's come out. The 360 Nationals is one of my favorite events. Without 410's on Weds & Thurs I don't even notice they are not as fast as a 410.

I also wonder why, since they are so much like a 410 now except for cubic inches, why are they made to drag around an extra 100 lbs? Take the 100lbs off a 360 and how much would that .994 second difference change?

I was going by what I found online but it could have been a typo.

You make some great points. This topic is sure to make some people stop and think about how close these cars have come.

Not that I don't enjoy a good World of Outlaws or IRA 410 race as often as possible. That extra tick of the clock more speed makes a difference in reaction times so there is a difference in the two but not big enough that I don't appreciate 360's or even 305's. It's all good.

Stan Meissner

Don Droud, Aug 24,1998..first lap under 15 seconds..14.934

First 360 sub 16 second lap 15.991 set May 8,2006 (Higday)

Bobby Allen first ever sub 16 second lap 15.722 set Sept 15,1989

Wow, And I thought Scruffy was FLYING the night he set that record!

Midgets are way slower than non wing 410's .... a 305 winged car is noticeably slower than 360 winged cars. Those same 360's are some what slower than 410 winged cars ....it is the closeness of the field in a race that makes the excitement.

Now ...if you want to get into 'names' ...that's another kettle of fish .... the most 'famous' (for lack of a better word) are your 410 winged drivers and probably followed fairly close by non wingers and midgets (as they are some what mutually synonomous) ... then down the line your 360's. Not knocking the 305 guys but they are last .... (entry level is the reason given for this class.)

Any of these groups can put on a GREAT race ...or a 'yawner'......just my take on things.

I tend to think some people confuse 'names' with quality (or perceived lack of quality) of open wheel events.

Kind of like Budweiser ....vs. Schlitz .... if your thirsty ....and both are ice cold .... 'who really gives a sh!t' ....

R.A.

S.H.S.

360s suck. Speed isn't the issue, the problem is they cost half as much....whoever doesn't move up to the 410s just isn't good enough to be able to afford it or to be able to get sponsors. Ask Steve Kinser.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

410's are harder to drive, and the setup matters more. Sure, 360 races are closer, because they are more forgiving to driving errors and setups not being perfect. If the 410's went away, 360's would become just as expensive as 410's currently are and the fields would quickly shrink when everyone went 305 racing. I think that it is more important that promoters do some promoting, get some butts in the seats, put on a show, and pay a decent purse. I'm in California at the moment, and a lot of my co-workers were unaware that there is racing at the local fairgrounds every week. There is not THAT much to do around here, if people knew that something was going on, they might come out. Heck the only reason I ever know about the local sprint racing is that I hunt it down. And promoters need to run a SHOW! So that people come back. 4 division of junk and 16 sprints isn't really a show. Yes, I know the economy sucks, but how hard are these promoters working? I know that some of them are, and when they do they get results.

In 1961, I was 14 years old and going to Knoxville on a regular basis. I remember watching Robbins race there along with the Blundys, Welds, Earl Wagner, Jerry Richert, etc. Just like today, there were good side by side races, and there were freight trains. There were also driver disputes and irrational fans, just like today.

Today, I make 6-8 WOO shows, about a half dozen other sprint races (mostly IRA) and the Knoxville Nationals week, beginning with the 360 National finals.

For me, it's not the speed that matters so much as the competition. Having said that, I don't particularly care for most of the stock car divisions, or Indy type cars, but, I can enjoy them in a good race when they are a support class.

By the way, Stan, I also enjoy your website. Don't check it every week, but often.

Jason Johnson ran 3rd at the 410 Nationals a few years back and now runs 360's with the ASCS. So since he is running 360's he's not a good driver? Gary Wright, Shane Stewart, Gary Lee Maier and Jason Johnson have all won 360 championships. Guess none of them are any good? Johnny Herrera can't get sponsorship to run a 410 so he's no good either? Did Steve Kinser go to drive for TSR cause he couldn't get a sponsor with Quaker State leaving? Apparently sponsors know who the good drivers are cause if you are not able to get a sponsor to run a 410 you are no good!!!!

Better go back to the "cut & paste" posts.

While Kinser is arguably the best driver of the winged era, that doesn't necessarily make him an authority regarding everything concerning sprint car racing.

If he was telling how to drive a sprint car, then I'd be listening.

If he had his way, there would be no tire rule in sprint car racing...and little other rules, for that matter.

Do 410 snobs think Nascar has always had a 358 ci limit? Used to run larger ci, and didn't go out of business. TV ratings blossomed and fanbase increased a million times over despite the ci reduction. I think the saying "don't try to reinvent the wheel" comes to mind here. Do what works. What Nascar does... works.

Did the IRL fold when they reduced ci? Actually it was their competitor.

Did NHRA Pro Stocks disappear when they limited the mountain motors? No. They actually are the tightest competition in 1/4 mile racing.

Did the WoO fold when the ci rule was changed to eliminate unlimited big blocks? How about the 430 ci limit... did the WoO fold then? No. Ohhhhh... they MUST have folded when they cut it back to 410. Right? They didn't? HUH?

So you're telling me that ci limits DON'T ruin racing as we know it?

Personally... I think if the WoO ran ASCS rules you'd have 5-10 more drivers win an A feature every year but the cream would still rise to the top. I think the price of a 360 would go up, as was mentioned, but it wouldn't cost as much as a 410 does today.

I do think that 360s should have a spec aluminum block, though. Aluminum blocks can be repaired way more often than steel blocks. Change that rule & I'm 100% behind 360s for all sprint car racing.

If Joey Saldana, Donny Schatz, Jason Meyers, Jason Sides, Steve Kinser and Sammy Swindell were running WoO 360s... you're telling me you wouldn't show up?

If you wouldn't... WOW. Amazing.

then support the 360 nationals...and don't forget to look around the stands and find each other - maybe you can all sit together on the top row?

limited sprints have made a name for themselves as the most expensive form of backgate racing for 410 sprint fans to ignore. the engine size debate team seems lost on the issue of the connection of driver identification and the fan base.

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

If the tracks are OK with lap times 3 to 5 seconds off the pace due to total lack of moisture, we might as well go to a straight six with a single throat carb.

A 410 is already extremely regulated so I guess a 360 is even better and like someone already said a 305 might be best...well second only to the local 3 dollar 3 minute kiddie go cart ride.

We shouldn't be aloud to type NASCAR on this board. Its insulting.

My hope is that sprint car racing gets deballed and regulated to the point that anyone not on welfare can win. Then Haud, Steve, Joey, Sammy, Hodnett and even Gerkin and Stauffer will have no advantage over a pansy like me. Now that will be cool.

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

If the 360s paid what 410s paid, I would be a supporter of 360 racing. But 360s generally run for 30 to 50 percent of a good 410 purse. The 360 Nationals pay 1/15 as much as the 410 Nationals pay to win. By and large, 360s are a reason for a promoter not to pay the drivers a decent purse. Here in central PA, ASCS failed to gain a foothold a few years ago. Fred Rahmer has it right when he said what 360 racing in PA would lead to if the top 410 drivers went to Susky and supported it. If the top drivers would have went to Susky and ran a 360 for $1,500 to win, then what reason would the 410 tracks have for paying $3,000 to win weekly?

The top drivers listed as running 360s are running 360s because they don't have any solid 410 offers. What sense does it make to run a class that consistently races for much less money? Jason Johnson went to 360s because he lost his 410 ride in PA. That is not a shot at him as a driver, but it's not like he walked away from a top 410 ride to race a 360.

Couldnt agree more, Ive been saying the same thing for the last few years now.

This country has hundreds & thousands of unemployed comedians... and we get you? Leave it to the pros, funnyman.

I pointed out logical thoughts based on history. Smart people learn from their mistakes... WISE people learn from the mistakes of others.

3-5 seconds different sounds a bit high. Maybe somewhere 5 seconds is true... news to me.