Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Steve usually runs behind this time of the year. If he's got the mojo, he'll be in front by May.

See BRR.....that's exactly what I was speaking about. When you are proven wrong, and KNOW you are wrong, you just change the argument to something you know you have the better of. So when was the subject of this exchange the All Stars? It wasn't, but because you know the Outlaws have you over a barrell you choose to spin it away. I even posted that you would do that and you still couldn't find any other way out....LMAO. You even admit that last year was an aberration because the WoO was a seriously dilluted product, and they still beat your posse more often than not. Why can't you just admit that they are the top of the food chain in the sprint car ranks, no harm in admitting the truth. but like I heard in a movie once...."THE TRUTH? YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" You really are pathetic, but at least you are predictable, and that makes me chuckle. So thanks for that.

Since you don't seem to have enough balls or money to support your posse against the WoO on your own home turf, then I guess we are done here.

Just in case you missed it.....In the three WoO races at Volusia

Lucas Wolfe...20th...DNS...B5

Josh Wells.....B15...C...C

Greg Hodnett...26...21...23

Lance Dewease...B10...26...C

Justin Barger...C...B14...B6

Justin Collett....C...C...C

Fred Rahmer...B18...16...10

Cody Darrah....12...C...26

Clabaugh and Busby were there for the first three nights but didn't run the WoO shows. Buckwalter and Krimes were at East Bay and didn't stay for Volusia. Don't remember any posse in victory lane for the All Star or East Bay shows either. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wells lead a good portion of the opener in posse land before breaking and giving way to Dewease and Hodnett.

Knoxville vs WoO - 1978 through 2006 (Nationals Included)

Aug 9 1978 Doug Wolfgang - Speedway Motors #4x

Aug 10 1978 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

Aug 12 1978 - Doug Wolfgang - Speedway Motors #4x

Apr 21 1979 - Sammy Swindell - Jeffrey #91

Aug 8 1979 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

Aug 9 1979 - Main event rained out Tim Green

Aug 10 1979 - Gary Patterson - Aden #4J

Aug 11 1979 - Ron Shuman - Stanton #75A

Apr 19 1980 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

Apr 20 1980 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

May 30 1980 - Doug Wolfgang - Howells #4

May 31 1980 - Doug Wolfgang - Howells #4

Aug 14 1980 - Mike Brooks - Annett #12

Aug 15 1980 - Sammy Swindell - Jeffery #19

Aug 16 1980 - Doug Wolfgang - Howells #4

Aug 17 1980 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

Sep 20 1980 - Tim Green

Apr 18 1981 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

May 22 1981 - Doug Wolfgang - Howells, Inc. #4

May 23 1981 - Sammy Swindell - Nance #1n

Jul 22 1981 - Sammy Swindell - Nance #1n

Aug 12 1981 - Jack Hewitt - Watson #78

Aug 13 1981 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

Aug 14 1981 - Tom Corbin - Deryetcalf #22

Aug 15 1981 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

Sep 12 1981 - Doug Wolfgang - Howells, Inc. #4

Apr 17 1982 - Doug Wolfgang - Howells Inc. #4

Jul 21 1982 - Danny Smith - Spurlock #18

Aug 12 1982 - Jimmy Sills - Bailey Bros #01

Aug 13 1982 - Doug Wolfgang - Stanton #75

Aug 14 1982 - Rick Weld

Aug 15 1982 - Steve Kinser - Kinser Bros #11

Apr. 16 1983 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Jul 27 1983 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Aug 10 1983 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 11 1983 - Bobby Allen - Allen #1a

Aug 12 1983 - Rick Montgomery

Aug 13 1983 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Oct 15 1983 - Keith Kaufmann - Hamilton #77

Oct 16 1983 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Apr 28 1984 - Bobby Davis, Jr. - Suiter #18

Apr 29 1984 - Rained Out

Jul 25 1984 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Aug 5 1984 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Aug 6 1984 - Brad Doty - Stanton 75

Aug 7 1984 - Dave Blaney

Aug 8 1984 - Doug Wolfgang - Weikert #29

Apr 27 1985 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Apr 28 1985 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Aug 14 1985 - Doug Wolfgang - Weikert #29

Aug 15 1985 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 16 1985 - Brad Doty - Pack #4a

Aug 16 1985 - Tim Gee - G & G #88g

Aug 16 1985 - Max Dumesny - Trostle #20

Aug 17 1985 - Doug Wolfgang - Weikert #29

Oct 4 1985 - Dave Blaney - Bishop #2

Oct 5 1985 - Brad Doty - Pack #4a

Oct 6 1985 - Doug Wolfgang - Weikert #29

Apr 25 1986 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Apr 26 1986 - Sammy Swindell - Beadle #1

Jun 25 1986 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jul 23 1986 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 14 1986 - Dave Blaney - Stanton #40

Aug 15 1986 - Brad Doty - Marks/Kepler #18

Aug 16 1986 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Apr 24 1987 - Brad Doty - Marks-Kepler #18

Apr 25 1987 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jul 22 1987 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jul 22 1987 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 15 1987 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

April 29 1988 - Mark Kinser - Reid #6r

April 30 1988 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

June 22 1988 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug. 10 1988 - Bobby Davis, Jr. - Luna #10

Aug. 11 1988 - Dave Blaney - Nott #48

Aug. 12 1988 - Doug Wolfgang - Kepler #18

Aug. 13 1988 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Apr 28 1989 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Apr 29 1989 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Jun 23 1989 - Doug Wolfgang - Peace #8d

Jun 24 1989 - Doug Wolfgang - Peace #8d

Aug 16 1989 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 17 1989 - Doug Wolfgang - Peace #8d

Aug 18 1989 - Jerry Richert, Jr

Aug 19 1989 - Doug Wolfgang - Peace #8d

Apr 29 1990 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Apr 29 1990 - Doug Wolfgang - Williams #8

Jun 22 1990 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jun 23 1990 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jul 25 1990 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Aug 15 1990 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 16 1990 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Aug 17 1990 - Jim Bell, Jr. - Bell #3BG

Aug 16 1990 - Bobby Allen - Allen #1A

Apr 26 1991 - Doug Wolfgang - Rogers #49

Apr 27 1991 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jun 21 1991 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Jun 22 1991 - Doug Wolfgang - Rogers #49

Jul 24 1991 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 14 1991 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 15 1991 - Kenny Jacobs - Wintermyer #1w

Aug 16 1991 - Tommie Estes, Jr - Gilliam #29G

Aug 17 1991 - Steve Kinser Kinser #11

Apr 25 1992 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Apr 26 1992 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Jun 19 1992 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Jun 20 1992 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jul 22 1992 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 12 1992 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 13 1992 - Sammy Swindell - Annett #1

Aug 14 1992 - Gary Brazier - Brazier #21AU

Aug 15 1992 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Sep 25 1992 - Tim Monson - Monson #6m

Sep 25 1992 - Dave Blaney - Chupp #7C

Sep 26 1992 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Apr 30 1993 - Danny Lasoski - Forbrook #5

Jun 26 1993 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Jun 27 1993 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Aug 19 1993 - Dave Blaney - Luna #10

Aug 20 1993 - Stevie Smith - Hamilton #77

Aug 21 1993 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Sep 24 1993 - Stevie Smith - Hamilton #77

Apr 29 1994 - Dave Blaney - Luna #10

Jun 18 1994 - Main event from Apr 30th cancelled due to rain

Jun 24 1994 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jun 25 1994 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jul 20 1994 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 17 1994 - Andy Hillenburg - Hillenburg #2

Aug 18 1994 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Aug 19 1994 - Greg Hodnett - Two Winners #8TW

Aug 20 1994 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Sep 23 1994 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Apr 28 1995 - Danny Lasoski - Sonner #47

Apr 29 1995 - Cancelled due to thunderstorms. Rescheduled for May 6th.

May 6 1995 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Jun 23 1995 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Jun 24 1995 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Jul 19 1995 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 161995 - Andy Hillenburg - Hillenburg #2

Aug 17 1995 - Danny Lasoski - Hamilton #77

Aug 18 1995 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Aug 19 1995 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Sep 27 1995 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Apr 26 1996 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Apr 27 1996 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Jun 21 1996 - Stevie Smith - Motter #71M

Jun 22 1996 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Jun 22 1996 - Jeff Swindell - 2 Winners #7TW

Jul 24 1996 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Aug 14 1996 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Aug 15 1996 - Terry Mc Carl - Gray #51

Aug 16 1996 - Cancelled due to rain

Aug 17 1996 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Apr 25 1997 - Sammy Swindell - Swindell #1

Apr 26 1997 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Jul 4 1997 - Sammy Swindell - Swindell #1

Jul 5 1997 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Jul 23 1997 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Aug 13 1997 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5m

Aug 14 1997 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Aug 15 1997 - Gary Wright

Aug 17 1997 - Dave Blaney - Blaney/Hylton 10

Apr 24 1998 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Apr 25 1998 - Postponed to May 2nd due to rain

May 2 1998 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Jul 3 1998 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Jul 4 1998 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Jul 22 1998 - Jac Haudenschild - Elden #22

Aug 12 1998 - Jeff Swindell - Two Winners 104+

Aug 13 1998 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 14 1998 - Craig Dollansky - Gleason #21G

Aug 15 1998 - Danny Lasoski - Roth #83

Jul 2 1999 - Danny Lasoski - Roth #83

Jul 3 1999 - Danny Lasoski - Roth #83

Jul 21 1999 - Danny Lasoski - Roth #83

Aug 11 1999 - Craig Dollansky - Dollansky #7

Aug 12 1999 - Tyler Walker - Walker #35

Aug 13 1999 - Sammy Swindell - Swindell #1

Aug 14 1999 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Apr 28 2000 - Sammy Swindell - Swindell #1

Apr 29 2000 - Danny Lasoski - Roth Racing #83

Jun 30 2000 - Johnny Herrera - DOCC M'sports #20

Jul 1 2000 - Stevie Smith - Smith #19

Jul 19 2000 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 9 2000 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 10 2000 - Craig Dollansky - Karavan Racing #7

Aug 11 2000 - Keith Kaufman - Middleswarth #7K

Aug 12 2000 - Mark Kinser - Kinser #5M

Apr 27 2001 - Craig Dollansky - Karavan Racing #7

Apr 28 2001 - Danny Lasoski - Stewart/Lasoski #20L

Jun 29 2001 - Danny Lasoski - Stewart/Lasoski #20L

Jun 30 2001 - Stevie Smith - Smith #19

Jul 16 2001 - Jason Meyers

Aug 8 2001 - Danny Lasoski - Stewart/Lasoski #20L

Aug 9 2001 - Donny Schatz - Schatz #15

Aug 10 2001 - Manny Rockhold - Gould #02

Aug 11 2001 - Danny Lasoski - Stewart/Lasoski #20L

Apr 26 2002 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Jun 28 2002 - Danny Lasoski - Stewart #20

Aug 7 2002 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Aug 8 2002 - Donny Schatz - Schatz #15

Aug 9 2002 - P.J. Chesson - Chesson #76

Aug 10 2002 - Steve Kinser - Kinser #11

Apr 25, 2003 – Danny Lasoski – Stewart #20

Apr 26, 2003 – Danny Lasoski – Stewart #20

Jul 4, 2003 – Steve Kinser – Kinser #11

Jul 5 2003 – Danny Lasoski – Stewart #20

Aug 14 2003 – Donny Schatz – Schatz #15

Aug 14 2003 - Steve Kinser – Kinser #11

Aug 16 2003 - Danny Lasoski – Stewart #20

May 1 2004 – Mark Kinser – Roth #83

Jun 25 2004 – Joey Saldana – Woodward #2

Jun 26 2004 – Craig Dollansky – Karavan #7

Aug 11 2004 – Tim Kaeding – Roth #83

Aug 12 2004 - Danny Lasoski – Stewart #20

Aug 14 2004 - Danny Lasoski – Stewart #20

Apr 29 2005 - Danny Lasoski – Stewart #20

Apr 30, 2005 - Steve Kinser – Kinser #11

Jun 24 2005 - Kraig Kinser – Kinser #11k

Aug 10 2005 – Fred Rahmer – Harz 88H

Aug 12 2005 – Shane Stewart – Rudeen #26

Aug 14 2005 - Kraig Kinser – Kinser #11k

Jun 23 2006 – Joey Saldana – Kahne #9

Jun 24 2006 - Cancelled due to rain

Aug 9 2006 – Fred Rahmer – Klein #22

Aug 10 2006 – Jason Johnson – Rowe #41

Aug 11 2006 – Calvin Landis – Landis #70

Aug 12 2006 – Donny Schatz – Schatz #15

Oct 7 2006 – Donny Schatz – Schatz #15

There is no weekly sprint series at Lebanon Valley, so when the outlaws run there, it is pretty much the only time that anyone runs sprints there. I know this, I am from New York. Also the only time they run 410's in New York is when the outlaws come to town. That's why there is usually only enough drivers for three heats in an outlaw race up here. Also from what I've heard from people that run there is that it has high-banks and is extremely fast, not flat corners. And you don't see why running at the Grove every week is an advantage over running there 3 weeks in the year? Track time is important. Having to adapt is a disadvantage compared to drivers that run the same track week after week. Especially at the Grove.

Sorry, still think your argument is weak. How come the track isn't an advantage anywhere else in the country then? You skipped that part in your answer. Wouldn't track time be just as important everywhere else as well?

I have been to Lebanon Valley many times. I was just making a point that Williams Grove isn't the only big paperclip the Outlaws run. It is high banked, but most guys dive for the inner rail entering the corners.

Most tracks aren't as tough as William's Grove. That was my point in my first post on this subject, when I said that the advantage for locals is bigger than for locals at places like Knoxville. And how many of the other paperclips have weekly series with as many weekly 410 drivers as the Grove. I do think Rahmer could go wheel to wheel with the outlaws if he toured with them. However I wouldn't say that about most of the posse. Many of the guys making A-mains and top 10's against the Outlaws wouldn't normally do that at other tracks. And seriously, if Jessica Zemken can get a top ten against the outlaws at a home-state track (Fulton), that does show a bit of home-field advantage. Look at how she did in Knoxville, both in 360's and 410's. Yet she came from 23rd to 10th at Fulton. Naturally the tougher a track is the bigger the advantage. And the grove is one of, if not the, toughest tracks in the U.S. Add the fact that you have veterans like Rahmer and Dewease who run PA every year, when Knoxville's finest always seem to move to the Outlaws. Most of Knoxville's full-timers at this point are young-guns, not the veterans that PA has. Also the Knoxville locals seem to have done as well against the outlaws as Pa drivers did at Grandview and Lernerville. Billy Alley had a 4th in one Outlaw A-main at Knoxville last year, with a number of them in the A-main.

Wait till some of these young boys get some laps under their belts here in Pa, we have some great racers coming up that will probably be here for a while because of their backgrounds.

The Posse runs good ANYWHERE. They win races in Florida. They win at Knoxville and Osky. They win at Charlotte. They win at every track around here...Erdley and Dewease beat the NST at Selinsgrove and Susky last year along with our guys manhandling the Outlaws at the Grove. Our race teams also run strong at Port, Hagerstown, Grandview and during the New York swing. That's why the Posse fills in the top ten in the 410 DOY poll each year.

Many of our drivers are Outlaw caliber... The only reason someone like Dewease isn't on the road is because he hasn't been offered a good enough ride to make it worth his while yet. Same for Lincoln Speedway, an Outlaw show isn't worth their while for the sanction fee the Outlaws are asking....

The long and the short of it is... History shows that OUTLAW KILLERS are born and bred in Central PA... not just OUTLAW WANNABEES like most other places around the country.

I don't think I was clear on the wager. Not national feature wins, simply head to head at the Grove, Posse vs Outlaws. How many times they there this year, can't be that big a nut to cover? Maybe what 8 times, Posse wins 5 Outlaws win 3, or vice versa, just make things interesting. Any confident Posse fans want to pony up on the boys? Bear in mind, I'm not bashing them, they are tough at the Grove, so let's see if anybody has confidence beyond the keyboard and usual blah blah blah.

That's my problem with your argument. You think PA has the best, just cause they're in PA. No. Rahmer has won in Knoxville. Not very many of them have. You have guys like Rahmer and Dewease sticking aroundin PA. So the best in PA stay there, and the best in other areas leave to tour with the Outlaws and the ASCS. It's not that PA has such good drivers born in PA. It's that the best stay there so you have them for there whole career. I'm not saying that's bad. PA has great racetracks with very supportive fans. I just hate the fact that many posse fans act like their drivers are better cause they are born in PA. I do think Rahmer and Dewease could tour with the outlaws. But most couldn't fair all that well outside of PA. If Lasoski had stayed in Knoxville, they could claim that their drivers can win anywhere, but those locals decide to tour. Jason Johnson could be a local down south and beat the outlaws but he chose to tour with the ASCoT. He did win a preliminary A-Feature at the Grove once. It's not that PA drivers are naturally better, it's that the best stick around in PA, whereas that isn't the case at most tracks.