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Topic: POLL: Would going to a smaller tire make 410 sprint car racing cheaper?
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Page 4 of 4 of 79 replies
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October 03, 2009 at
08:26:26 PM
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I totally agree with Lance Dewease on the tire issue. I would love to see 12" left rears and 15" or 16" right rear tires on these cars. Another major problem that has screwed up sprint car racing are these Dolly Parten or top heavy purses. The more you pay to win the more everybody spends the more everybody loses in the end. Cappy and I were having a heated discussion this july in the office at Knoxville Raceway and he told me there probably won't be any 410 weekly racing here in another year or two. The motor costs are worse at Knoxville than anywhere else in the country. They have had so many motors blowing up there this year that it averages 2-3 motors per team blew up this year. That adds up to $30-60 thousand dollars a year just for blowing up motors at a local level that only races 4 months a year. The durability of a 360 engine is what makes them so much cheaper to run than 410's. It's sad to continue to watch this sport die year after year. Its been going down hill ever since the 92-93 slick50 days in Arizona. The fans don't come to the sprint car races (local, woo & Nationals) at Knoxville anymore not because of the economy but the truth is because the don't like what they are getting from the race track.
Calvin Landis #70
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October 28, 2009 at
04:05:01 AM
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You hear all the time about how 360 motors will last longer than 410's will,but why is that? You know these top 360 builders are putting as much compression in their motors as a 410,and the drivers are winding them as tight as they can,so what makes the 410 so much more of a timebomb? Is the aluminum block part of the problem?-With the cost of motors,360 and 410,it's kind of like spending $50 on a carnival game trying to win a $5 stuffed bear.
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October 28, 2009 at
08:33:06 AM
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Don't worry guys. The Goodyears will unhook the cars quite a bit. No bite in those things.
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October 28, 2009 at
06:25:22 PM
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Read Dave Argabright's latest column in Sprint and Midget, look at USAC Midget's, they are all but dead due to uncontrolled spending to win $2,000. It looks to me like 410's are headed that way unless they address these issues. Personally I would love to put a team out in the next couple of years but not unless some sanity enters the picture. There may be 100-200 people just like me ready to enter or re-enter the sport if they can get the costs under control. They can still be the best, most exciting division in the world and make it so a car owner doesn't need to spend $500k a year just to see his car race 100 times.
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October 29, 2009 at
12:10:20 PM
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"Would going to a smaller tire make 410 sprint car racing cheaper?"
No, because everything else (motors, parts, chassis, ect.) will still be expensive no matter what you do with the tires. I do agree with Calvin on the size of the tires, though. Also if these tracks or series are going to have a tire rule, let all the brands (Hoosier, Goodyear, American Racer, ect.) in to sell tires and just have a hardness compound rule that you can test with a durometer. Just my 2 cents. 
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October 29, 2009 at
05:18:30 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: sprintcrew on October 29 2009 at 12:10:20 PM
"Would going to a smaller tire make 410 sprint car racing cheaper?"
No, because everything else (motors, parts, chassis, ect.) will still be expensive no matter what you do with the tires. I do agree with Calvin on the size of the tires, though. Also if these tracks or series are going to have a tire rule, let all the brands (Hoosier, Goodyear, American Racer, ect.) in to sell tires and just have a hardness compound rule that you can test with a durometer. Just my 2 cents.
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Yes...
AARN: Why are the tires being blamed for so many ills?
Lance Dewease: We’re averaging five to eight races on a rear end, then we need to change the ring and pinions. It’s about the down force. The tires are growing and that makes everything else quicker. People don’t understand the pressure it has on drivelines and U-joints. The vibration inside the car is incredible, and it’s related to down force and how the tires are reacting.
Dewease is trying to answer by emphasizing just how much grip the tires have now. He's trying to paint a picture for someone who never sat in the seat before. The wings are the same size as they were twenty-five years ago. In fact, they even have less downforce now because of the flat top wing rule. The only thing that has changed is the tires and the heads. Traction is what should be limited, not horsepower.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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October 30, 2009 at
07:33:26 AM
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No adjustable wing sliders and a set wing angle along with smaller tires is a sure way to limit traction. One right rear and one left rear per night. "ALL NIGHT" This would allow guys with less ponies to at least have a chance. Let the smart guy have a chance against the rich guy?
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November 22, 2009 at
11:25:48 AM
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"With Goodyear becoming the designated supplier of rear tires for the World of Outlaws Sprint Car Series next season, it's the perfect opportunity for officials to mandate narrower tires on both sides of the car. That would be a big step in "unhooking" the cars and making the driver a bigger part of the equation." -Keith Waltz, Nov. 18th, 2009 National Speed Sport News
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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November 22, 2009 at
11:29:55 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on November 22 2009 at 11:25:48 AM
"With Goodyear becoming the designated supplier of rear tires for the World of Outlaws Sprint Car Series next season, it's the perfect opportunity for officials to mandate narrower tires on both sides of the car. That would be a big step in "unhooking" the cars and making the driver a bigger part of the equation." -Keith Waltz, Nov. 18th, 2009 National Speed Sport News
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That would be a big step in "unhooking" the cars and making the "Traction Control" a bigger part of the equation.
I think this is more true.
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November 22, 2009 at
11:36:21 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: brettco on November 22 2009 at 11:29:55 AM
That would be a big step in "unhooking" the cars and making the "Traction Control" a bigger part of the equation.
I think this is more true.
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Let us know when people start complaining about every World of Outlaw late model race being won off the front row.
Let us know when ASCS 360 late models take over the whole country because UNLIMITED late model engines cost too much to maintain.
_________________________________________________
(from Brad Doty column in the January 2009 SprintCar & Midget)
It was an eye-opener to some when they compared the right rear tire of a late model to that of a sprint car (at the Vault World Finals).
The right rear tire of the late model is considerably smaller in circumference and width. The late model also weighs twice as much as a sprint car, but yet, uses half the tire.
At one time the late models had wedge bodies and plexiglas wings and sideboards all over them and they also used a big soft floppy right rear tire. When they finally outlawed the wedge bodies and went to the harder and smaller tire, the racing arguably got a whole lot better. Those who have been advocating for smaller and harder tires for sprint cars say that something could be learned from the late models.
I've had an ongoing argument/debate with a couple of drivers who want to solely blame the racetrack when, on occasion, the racing isn't what we hope it would be. If it weren't for the late model race, where they were passing, I'm sure those guys would still say it was the fault of the racetrack and that it "was too fast" and not slick enough for the sprint cars. But the argument goes right out the window when the late models were able to pass and put on a good race on the same racetrack.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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November 22, 2009 at
01:47:15 PM
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only the company selling the tires can answer this question, it's up to them
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November 22, 2009 at
02:28:21 PM
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This message was edited on
November 22, 2009 at
02:33:38 PM by brettco
Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on November 22 2009 at 11:36:21 AM
Let us know when people start complaining about every World of Outlaw late model race being won off the front row.
Let us know when ASCS 360 late models take over the whole country because UNLIMITED late model engines cost too much to maintain.
_________________________________________________
(from Brad Doty column in the January 2009 SprintCar & Midget)
It was an eye-opener to some when they compared the right rear tire of a late model to that of a sprint car (at the Vault World Finals).
The right rear tire of the late model is considerably smaller in circumference and width. The late model also weighs twice as much as a sprint car, but yet, uses half the tire.
At one time the late models had wedge bodies and plexiglas wings and sideboards all over them and they also used a big soft floppy right rear tire. When they finally outlawed the wedge bodies and went to the harder and smaller tire, the racing arguably got a whole lot better. Those who have been advocating for smaller and harder tires for sprint cars say that something could be learned from the late models.
I've had an ongoing argument/debate with a couple of drivers who want to solely blame the racetrack when, on occasion, the racing isn't what we hope it would be. If it weren't for the late model race, where they were passing, I'm sure those guys would still say it was the fault of the racetrack and that it "was too fast" and not slick enough for the sprint cars. But the argument goes right out the window when the late models were able to pass and put on a good race on the same racetrack.
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I'm all for smaller tires and even wing. Do you agree with what I said cubic? Why won't they take away the wing adjustment-set the angle and race with what angle you choose.
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November 22, 2009 at
05:05:52 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: brettco on November 22 2009 at 02:28:21 PM
I'm all for smaller tires and even wing. Do you agree with what I said cubic? Why won't they take away the wing adjustment-set the angle and race with what angle you choose.
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Max wing angle limit is coming sooner or later. Most racing series already tech wing and spoiler angles. Is easy to check and makes a huge difference. No brainer.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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November 22, 2009 at
08:01:25 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: cubicdollars on November 22 2009 at 05:05:52 PM
Max wing angle limit is coming sooner or later. Most racing series already tech wing and spoiler angles. Is easy to check and makes a huge difference. No brainer.
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Do you agree that Traction control will take over when they make 410s run smaller harder tires? It wasn't that long ago that TC was all you wanted to talk about. Do you think the outlaws guys all have it already?
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November 22, 2009 at
08:28:02 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: brettco on November 22 2009 at 08:01:25 PM
Do you agree that Traction control will take over when they make 410s run smaller harder tires? It wasn't that long ago that TC was all you wanted to talk about. Do you think the outlaws guys all have it already?
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Central PA is considering legalizing traction control for 2010. Then MSD can sell it already installed for a couple of hundred dollars. No one likes it, but at least it will be fair. Only big money race teams can afford to run it right now. Late model racing hasn't seemed overly affected by it and most of them run it. Not too many other options at this point, they have been trying to police it for years to no avail.
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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November 23, 2009 at
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I have been involved in racing in one aspect or another for over 30 years and this idea of saving money to save the sport has been ongoing for ever. When the WoO did away with "Run-What-Cha-Brung" motors it saved money for all the teams for a little while but then they found other areas to spend that same money on. I got word a few weeks ago that a Paul Ott engine complete and out the door was now $50250.00!! Racing has always been about spending $$$$$. If you can not afford to run the "Premier" series then you race in a lower division, or something you can afford. Dont make those who can afford to race what they want stop because you can afford to do it too. And please quit quoting some old articles from 1995 about saving money and quit quoting Lance Dewease also. If you want to quote someone make it somebody who has pull in this sport
The older I get the faster I use to be
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February 02, 2011 at
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Has anyone changed there view now that car counts down, tracks cutting the payout, fans counts down, the economy such as it is sponsorship???
A narrower right rear tire would save money in racing this has been proved.
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February 02, 2011 at
03:39:44 PM
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Holy Thread Resurrection Batman!!! 
Phil Taylor
home-theater-systems-advice.com
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February 02, 2011 at
07:33:17 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: wvsprinter on December 20 2008 at 12:36:44 PM
I have no problem going to a 16" right rear tire limit, but I really don't think that is the answer. The real problem is the cost of the motors and rebuilds. There needs to be a compression limit put on the motors and possibly spec heads & injection.
I would like to see a flat foil wing with no wicker bill (regular size sail panels), 16" right rear tires with two compounds to choose from (hard & harder), a compression limit on the motors, a spec head & injection (maybe a 2 3/4 max), no cockpit adjustable shocks or weight jackers, and NO FUEL STOPS! This would be a good start that would not change the current "look" of 410 sprint cars and would only reduce the speeds just slightly while at the same time significantly reducing the overall yearly costs.
410's still need to be the "premier" division, thus the larger cc heads & larger injections, but they need to have limits. Start by controling the major costs, engines & tires, and you will be well on your way to saving the sport.
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Smaller tires would unhook the car.
Unhooking the car solves every $ problem related to engines needing more hp and less races between rebuilds.
Put in place a meaningful tire rule and you don't need a single other engine rule and you would significantly reduce the number of unplanned "fuel stops" also.
This is so simple that it would be funny if neglecting to do something wasn't destroying sprint car racing.
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February 03, 2011 at
01:33:27 AM
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simple answer, no...
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