Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I have a few questions.

Am I the only one that thinks the 'open' word going along with 410 and midget engines is starting to hurt the sport?

In the case of the 410 doesn't't a 3' intake sound too big?

Don't larger intakes coincide with higher working RPM bands?

Don't higher RPM bands mean more frequent rebuilds and more catastrophic explosions when that might be the conclusion?

16 to 1 compression (and probably then some) also adds to any potential longevity problems?

Does anyone think any given show would suffer if everyone would be limited to 8000 RPM, a 2.5' injection and 14-15 to 1 compression?

There are chips that could limit the RPM. Intake stacks have been necked down in other instances and compression has been monitored in many classes of race car for years.

Doesn't anyone think it would be good to have engines that could be run for 15-20 nights and then wouldn't cost 10%+ of their original purchase price to freshen?

On the midget front, what was the average car count at say Sun Prairie on Sunday nights for the summer? Last summer? and maybe the summer before that?

I would not recommend the Focus thing for the midgets. Nothing against the Focus series, they are a great development series, I am just saying more for the money in the 'open' midget class.

I would not recommend 360s for the sprint cars. There are several excellent 360 series, I am talking 410s.

I think the tire rule is really quite cute. Does anyone think there were any of the hard compound tires run anywhere this year (unless mandated). Put them on hard tires and make the races 40 laps minimum. Now that would be even more bang for the buck for the paying customers.

Sure Stewart, Kahn, Lewis and the like would be at the Dynos in a heart beat. That parts of racing will never change. I just think there might be more competitive cars in any given race program. I would think there might be more driver and less HP. Again nothing against the guys that can handle the power being pumped out as it is. If anyone thinks the guys who are fast now would be anything less with any rule changes I would disagree.

I have lived a blessed and wonderful life. Aside from my family and faith, racing has always been a part of it. I witnessed the evolution of the sprint car and midget racing since the early 70s (You know the tipped over wings and 5 coils, the motorcycle and outboard boat engines and all of that). I think simple rule changes such as my previous ramblings could do nothing but generate new interest and most importantly possibly level the playing field for the Saturday night racer. The Saturday night racer that certainly doesn't have the budget for an engine program involving 16 to 1 +, 9000RPM+, four , five , six night engines that cost thousands and thousands to buy and freshen.

Sincerely,

Fastrip

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

simple solution - across the board, change the rules to 1 engine per event = problem solved

crank the p!ss ourt of it all you want and all you can afford - but when the magic smoke comes out - YOU are done until tomorrow. no provisonal excuses, no big $ bribes...you blow it, park it - let the spenders spend themselves into a nightmare and concentrate on t-shirt sale for the night.

eventually they will abandon1 new eingine per race...or beg for additional sponsors...and the wing can only hold so many deep pocket names.

in the big picture- eliminate the 410 cuid rule and have at it...HP can be made much more cheaply without this rule structure and the only people benfiting are the builders.

have a nice day

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

Top race teams who have a competitive advantage under current rules and financial constraints are the main obstacle. They are the reason 360s have taken over the country.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

You know there isn't any form of racing that doesn't have to deal with cubic dollar evolution. The rules are as they are, the people with the resources will take the rules to the limit. that is that.

To that end, was Karl Kinser good for the sport or bad for the sport? Hell he brought the mechanical sprint car to near its present day condition. There have actually been steps backwards from the Karl Kinser pinnacle. The weight rules and limitations on the use of titanium are a few things

to pop into my head.

Can the sport afford to lose teams like Tony Stewart racing and Kasey Kahn racing? I don't think so. I am just suggesting the playing field get somewhat leveled again for a while.

The races that turned my blood to part methanol and gear lube were in the late 70s at Eldora. A couple guys by the name of Kinser and Swindell swapping slide jobs for the lead, lap after lap. In Laverne Nance's cars. Sure they were leading edge at the time but compared to today? The cars, the tires, the engines. I have, to this day, to see anyone do it any better, race on the edge that is, heavy old S&*t bucket or not.

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

The races that turned my blood to part methanol and gear lube were in the late 70s at Eldora. A couple guys by the name of Kinser and Swindell swapping slide jobs for the lead, lap after lap. In Laverne Nance's cars. Sure they were leading edge at the time but compared to today? The cars, the tires, the engines. I have, to this day, to see anyone do it any better, race on the edge that is, heavy old S&*t bucket or not.

The irony of it all is that they were turning lap times slower than today's 360's. Fast forward to 2008 and half the people in the stands get up and leave after the 410 Features when 360's are the support class.

Stan Meissner

Stan, would you agree that it's been marketing that has created that situation?

...

Central Pa is the only place in the country left where cockpit adjustable shocks and weight jackers are still legal...because of a few top teams. They are the only reason, or a lack of backbone by our local promoters, whichever way you want to look at it.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

You know Emmet Hahn tried that spec head thing a few years back. Hell the car was near Outlaw calibre. Too darned many other choices and the class just plain dies. Like the Nascar Silver Crown cars.

You know what I mentioned above for changes wouldn't require much of anything different for all practical purposes. No one hears, no one care? I don't know. If I could put it together there would be a weekly race of 14.5 to 1, 8000 RPM 410s on 25s or harder and off we go.

The Outlaws exist because of 15 well funded teams. Not because of parliamentary support from any sanctioning body. Bring those 15 teams together to race anywhere and there would be a heck of a show without any sanctioning moniker. Those 15 teams decide what all the 410 open cars are going to do pretty much across the country. A great part of the racing public wants to have a car that would be legal to race with the fast 15 so everybody does as they do. Millions of dollars spent to have the opportunity to race with the travellers if and when they show up. Most won't even try but they could if they wanted to. That's definitely worth all the extra money.

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

Sprint Car summits are held annually where all the top players in the sport come together and discuss cost saving measures among other things. The current official stance seems to be if it isn't broken, don't fix it. The major players in the sport have only locked in current maximum specifications... current max tire size, current max injector size, wing dimensions, etc. No reductions. ASCS leads on that forefront, as do the various 305 series across the nation.

Limited sprints do seem to be slowly taking over even here in Central PA. It is a gradual transition. Our 358s headline at Selinsgrove and Trailway Speedways. Our 410s headline at Williams Grove, Lincoln and Port Royal Speedways with limited sprints running as a 2nd class. Carbureted super sportsman headline Saturday nights at Williams Grove. 360 special shows also seem to be making headway as the Kasey Kahne charity race this year was a huge success with Kahne, Stewart and Blaney competing.

The reason they don't just give the 410s a compression rule or make them run a smaller harder tire is because the top race teams in the sport are very adamant about not changing anything. To the point of boycotting whatever series or track that would try to make a change. The Outlaws aren't going to push the issue because their race teams don't want it. Our race tracks here in PA were swayed by our top teams on the cockpit adjuster rule alone, much less anything else. Ohio's tracks are small enough engine cost isn't a critical factor. Same for California that only runs 410s weekly at Chico. IRA as well. Knoxville is the only race track that is big enough it matters that seems to be willing to push the issue at all.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

you said it ,

Yea I've heard of the summit. What are they voting in this year, oh yea flat top wings, that's definately a equalizer.

Like I said, 15 teams dictate what a better part of the whole country does, and spends for that matter.

I will surely miss 410s should they every take a back seat to the 360s. And like you said the 360s and 305s are getting more and more popular every year.

In Wisconsin there is a 360 series that was easily drawing 40 cars. They of course cound't adapt anything like the ASCS rule, format so they are completely unique to the area and their own shows. They are iron engine of 12 to 1 compression with small injection and .550' lift at the valve cam rules. They are momentum cars, for the most part if you get too crossed up or whatever it takes a lap to get back to speed. I am sorry, that isn't what I consider exciting in sprint car racing. Sure they have some pretty good racing, they would be a darned sight better with something like ASCS rules or a limited 410. They are however a pretty good development class. There is alot to be learned in equal competition. It's funny though how with even all of their rules there are still always fast teams and average teams. I can't imagine anyone would spend any extra money to find the edge even in a development class, can you?

Never start fast projects with half fast ideas!!

Many purists would like to see no cubic inch limit whatsoever, but limited traction instead with a smaller harder tire and savvy aero rules to bring the driver back into the forefront. That would be my hope. Done right many 360s would be competitive with 410s at smaller venues.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

I agree with BRR ....."in the big picture- eliminate the 410 cuid rule and have at it...HP can be made much more cheaply without this rule structure and the only people benfiting are the builders".... and this post as well. It would also bring some excitement and younger people to our sport. "open comp" has always equalled innovation and excitement. Since I'm a "purist" as cubic mentioned, the aero rules are meaningless to me unless we talk about side panels and other stuff like that on a traditional car. The 360 divisions are strong on this side (California & Arizona) and no one walks out of a show if they are a support division for the 410's except maybe turn4rob..LOL In fact the first night of 3 at the Western World will be 360's on the short track and trust me, the fans will be there They are still diverse as ASCS has not made as many inroads into this part of the world as they would have like. In fact the only ASCS non wing group is here in Arizona. Over in Cali, Victorville has had a few open comp event's, the first one without mufflers and it brought excitement and a lot of smiles to more than a few faces.

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

I knew you'd show up on this thread. What took you so long?

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

16 or 20 square foot top wings might do it. Eliminate the load on the car and spin the tires all you want with your 40k, 900 horse motor.

I think open motors other than common sense rules regarding electronics, nitro, materials (titanium, carbon fiber, etc) are way to go. As long as they unhook the cars to where a 360 could at least compete on 3/8's mile and under tracks. The D3B tire rule mentioned in the thread below would certainly work. I also think there is nothing wrong with our 25 sqft wings as well. If anything, if it was deemed necessary they could just do away with the sliders and come up with a placement and max angle rule.

Tire Rule = American Racer D3B (old IMCA sprint tire ) 13.5 wide, 60 compound, stiffer side walls, its the best thing to happen and with no performance edge for newer tires every night, (12 + shows.) This package works great with the large wing, its not enough tire to lock the car down. Its just like the IMCA modifieds program - no tire for high HP motors to use.

It becomes a driver deal not a wing down deal.

wrb

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

think it said, RUN WHAT YA BRUNG, that was until the outlaws got tired of having it handed to them by cheaper big blocks in pa! no rule is the cheapest rule.

"It becomes a driver deal not a wing down deal."

For me anyway when Steve, Sammy, and some of other good one's started running Manzanita big 1/2 mile back in the 80's without lifting, I knew that most of the good racing with wings would be short lived. I had seen some excellent winged racing at Skagit in the first part of the 80's but they ran the track very very heavy back then and the wings were not nearly as big or sophisticated as today. Know how I knew Stevie Smith would be a good one like his dad? He ran Manzy flat out his first time there as a rookie with the outlaws.. It got so boring after awhile it was a no brainer to go back to a all traditional Western World again. The Friday non wing show was so much better than the Saturday winged final that Keith Hall finally, thank God, changed it back to a non wing show like it had started.

Kenny

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true.