Forum: Oklahomatidbits.com General Forum (go)
Moderators:  /  David Smith Jr

I have had this website and message board since 1998. It started out rather small with the sprint people who knew me from my workings with ASCS and some tidbit columns I had for Sprint Car News and other stuff. When it first started, Lawton got this site alot of hits by a bashing of a current SFS modified driver and after awhile I had to tame it.

Here, dern near 10 yrs. later, this site has grown beyond my imagination and I have always been proud of it as not having to babysit or closely monitor. I have given many of you the benefit of the doubt with posts of your thoughts and opinions. I have let alot of you get away with alot of stuff. I have took butt chewings from a promoter or two and a people or two but I took it because I thought you all had a right to say what you want to.

But lately this message board has got out of hand and for the third night in a row, I have received an email from people (who has been on this website a long, long time) that they are not viewing or posting here any longer.

NOW you all have my attention and have pissed me off. This message board will still have postings about racing schedules, breaking news updates, questions and some constructive concerns that hopefully can be discussed and kept to the topic at hand, instead of turning into a bashin session.

HOWEVER, there will be no more personal bashing of people be it what they race, where they live, how they drive or what they watch. Any of above which occurs will find their post deleted and, depending on my mood, who will be barred from posting on this site.

With my son in the hospital down in Lawton and needing treatment, with me getting PR things done ahead of time for NCRA and me trying to make every tracks winter nationals, I really don't have time to babysit this deal. BUT, because there are those of you who want to amuse yourself, I think it is time I start monitoring this deal every day and every post. I don't want to do this, I hate having to do this but there are those of you who aren't grown up enough yet to respect this website or myself. If you respected me even slightly, then you wouldn't be posting what you do in the first place.

If you want to lash out at me about this, email me or give me a call and I would be glad to discuss it with you (405) 740-4769.

For all you promoters or those of you representing tracks or drivers, I apologize for some of the stuff you have been reading.

Thank you.

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

David,

We hope your son is doing better and wish him a speedy recovery. Sending you prayers from Lawton.

As far as tidbits is concerned - it's a great forum and I'd hate to see anything about it change. I do agree that noone should get on here and slander or threaten any one person in particular and that there should be no profanity (as my children get on this site daily). But over all - it's a great site for racing and all kinds of opinions. And when there's controversy - it makes for pretty entertaining reading! Thank you for giving us this opportunity.

GOD, Family, Dirt Track Racing,  OU Football, and the 
Dallas Cowboys is what we live for:)

David,

(I had originally planned on just emailing this to you but I figured it might be beneficial for everyone to read.)

I’m sorry to hear about your son.

This WILL be a LONG post so I hope you have time to read it all. I’m not trying to tell you how to run things and I hope you will take some of these things into consideration as I have given it a lot of thought and have spent a considerable amount of time writing this. Ha ha.

While I don't know all the details, I understand your frustration with the situation at hand with the OklahomaTidbits message boards. However, whether you realize it or not what you have going is GREAT and I hope that you reconsider your decision to go to a strict moderation policy.

I can certainly understand how frustrating it must be to receive letters from people saying they will no longer frequent your message board because of XYZ. Just try to remember though... you CAN'T please everybody. You'll go crazy trying. For every person that threatens to leave if you don't change things... I guarantee that there is at least one... maybe even two or three who will leave if you DO change things. I speak from experience which I will share later in the email. Try to remember WHY people come to YOUR message board.

I have a couple of questions for you. What is Oklahoma Tidbits? I believe Oklahoma Tidbits is a place where people gather for regional news and results. Why do people come to your message board? People come to your message board for news, results, technical advice, AND SOCIAL purposes. If they just want the news or results there is no need for the message board. If they need technical advice... there are a LOT of other message boards with larger member counts that can fulfill this purpose. One of the things that is great about the OklahomaTidbits' message board is the fact that people can gather to discuss ideas and express opinions that are local in nature. That in my opinion is WHY people come to your message boards.

I'm not really into the Eastern religions... but I believe the concept of the Yin and the Yang rings true when it comes to anything social. There is a light and a dark side to all things that are social in nature. You have the positive.. and you have the negative. You can't get rid of one and expect the other to survive.

Here is why the negative on your message board is not necessarily a bad thing.

As you know Americans don't like being told what they can and cannot say. We believe in the Freedom of Speech. Now as you can imagine The U.S. Supreme Court has dealt with the Freedom of Speech issue... over, and over, and OVER again. One of the concepts that have arisen out of these cases is "The Marketplace of Ideas." This theory states that the truth arises out of the competition of ideas in an open market. So ideas are just like products in the marketplace... the good ones will sell... and the bad ones... well they won't. Message boards are a social marketplace.

So sure, people may be "bashing" drivers, and other tracks... but its survival of the fittest as far as these ideas... and opinions go. Just because someone says something doesn't make it true and the truth will almost always ring true.

Another thing to consider is... people are drawn to conflict. It’s not a pretty side of human nature... but its there. It’s why the gladiatorial games were so popular... it why people all run to watch a fight... heck it’s why Simon is on American Idol... (no I don't watch that show. Ha ha.) People enjoy drama... they enjoy conflict... most of us just don't enjoy it when it is happening to us. The truth of the matter is... conflict and drama ATTRACTS people.

I don't have to tell you that when there is a GOOD rivalry going on between two drivers... and the people know about it, it’s good for the crowd! The same is true for your website and message board! Look at which threads have the most posts... look at which ones have the most views. They usually have a conflict going on within.

If you're afraid of legal actions... don't be. While I’m not a law expert and don’t claim to be; I took a class last semester over Media Law. In this class we went over many court cases that had to do with the media. We spent several weeks just going over slander and libel. Now you may or may not know that newspapers can be held liable for libel; this includes publishing an article, editorial, or even a reader's letter that is false and defamatory. Because of this newspapers have to be careful of what they publish, and always must check their facts. Even a correction published at a later date will not completely absolve the newspaper of its liability.

However, according to a couple of court cases (I can look them up for you if you'd wish) message board owners are NOT held liable for libel or slanderous posting of the boards users. So... if you're ever afraid of legal action because of something that a poster has posted... DON'T be. Now if YOU post something... that's a different story... but as far as your posters go... you cannot be held liable for their comments. The courts have your back on this. Ha ha.

Now I know the issue is complicated by the fact that you have tracks and services that advertise on your site. I'm sure you feel pressure when one of these advertisers are being "bashed." Don't be. You're NOT responsible for your poster's words or actions. If an advertiser is upset with something that is posted, tell them to take it up with the poster. If you didn't post it... you are NOT responsible. You own the website you ARE responsible for the CONTENT of it... however, you are NOT responsible for what people post on your message board.

These "conflicts" not only bring hits to site which equals views of your ads... but it’s also publicity. Ever heard the saying... there is no such thing as bad press? For the most part this saying is true... the only time its not is when the statements in the press ARE true. That's bad press. As for the other stuff... well, just remember the marketplace of ideas. The truth will rise to the top and opinion… they are just that opinions.

Now, I want to share with you a few things that I have seen happen with other message boards in the past, which have gone through similar problems. Trust me; EVERY message board has these problems.

Over the years I have frequented several message boards. One of the first ones I frequented was a NATIONAL message board for Camaro and Firebird owners (ThirdGen.org). This message board had a LOT of posters and even more lurkers. After a while there was a division over how the message board should be used. Half of the people thought that the message board should ONLY be used for technical topics that have to do with Camaro and Firebirds and were getting upset and complaining about those who used the board for other purposes. The other half felt that the boards should be used for both social AND technical topics. The message board users fought over this for a while and came to no resolution. The technical half kept complaining threatening to leave, and eventually, the message board announced that they would only allow discussion over technical issues and went to a strict moderating policy. This upset the half that thought the board should be used for BOTH social and technical topics... so guess what? THEY left. They split off and formed a new message board (3rdGen.org). A third went to the technical board and only posted there, a third went to the social board and only posted there, and a third jumped between the two boards. The online community survived and both message boards still thrive today... but in my opinion the online community is poorer for the split.

Another experience I had was with a LOCAL Camaro and Firebird club. AGAIN, similar issues popped up and, AGAIN, the eventual decision made was that the board would go to a strict moderating policy. This killed the message board... and in my opinion this policy helped to lead a decline in the club membership. Those who were there for the social aspects left the message boards and it and the club dried up. Last I checked they are both shadows of their former selves.

Why did one community dry up... and the other survive the split? I think it has to do with two factors.

1.) The size and geological demographics of the two boards. The Camaro and Firebird board, was a national board. It had posters from all over the United States and was quite sizable. While the club message board was regional and thus smaller in nature. Because of this the split impacted the regional board much harder.

2.) The reason for the two boards. People came to the national board for BOTH social and technical discussion. However, while there were people who came to the regional board for techincal discussion... most were there for the social aspects. Thus, going to a strict moderating policy and policing peoples comments and opinions, killed the social nature of the board and many people left.

Another example is the Whowon.com / ElbowsUp.com split. I don’t know all the details this but I know a lot of the ElbowsUp.com posters use to post on WhoWon.com and now rarely do.

In short, my opinion is that there is a time and a place for moderation of a message board, such as if people are telling lies or using language that isn’t proper, but censoring opinions or topics is not one them. People are responsible for their own words and actions. There is no need to carry that burden on your shoulders. You have enough going on in your life. In the end the decision is yours and I’m not trying to tell you what to do with your message board, but please take these things into consideration and please remember WHY people come to the OklahomaTidbits message board.

Wow! This post has been epic but I felt it all needed to be said.

I like dirt!

David

I hope your son is doing better soon and he and you as well as  the rest of your family are in our prayers.  Lawton has three of the Countrys best Medicial Facilities, I'm sure he is in good hands. Need anything , cup of coffee, a sandwich brought over, call my business #581-0646. 

Fight to win on the Track, not in the parking lot! I 
just love the " Ur # 1. wave " from fellow racers as 
we head home to our other lives !

No offence, but, isn't this kinda the opposite of your black flagging theory?

On the black flagging post you're saying through away the flag n let em race!

Now here you're saying "Whooaaa"!????

But, I'm kinda like dogwater, I think a little conflict helps draw us here.

And I guess I'm against throwing away the black flag, I think it'll just cause more fights in the pits, and I just wanna RACE!!!

I want to applaud you and thank you for what you've built here, it's great to have this to look at n use through the week.

Sorry to hear about your son, best wishes.

David

Personal attacks, profanity, and out right petty anger over just about any topic is my only concern.

My advice......Delete any post with profanity, and if you have to , bar the poster who continues to express themselves using profanity.

Delete post that out right attack a particular person with name calling, accusations and statements directed to hurt and defame this individual or an institution or enterprise. Or in anyway tends to be destructive to the other person or business.

Delete any post that gets off topic. That is common on other fourms.

Request that the originator of the Thread monitor the post and keep it on Topic and civil by making corrective post as the thread progresses, allowing him to report problems to you so you wont have to monitor every post. This will give you many eyes, and limit the Topics being posted for sheer fun at watching the frenzy flourish. And place the resposibility for placing productive and timely topics right where it belongs, with the poster.

One rule you can put in place is simple: NEVER ATTACK THE PERSON OR INSTITUTION, ATTACK THEIR ACTIONS OR INACTIONS. Focus on the problem behavior not who caused it, or how he was raised, or who he married, or where he lives.

Simply address the problem in a civil manner, and offer a soultion to avoid that problem from happening again.

If you are angry, say so! Express your views as to why and let it go!

If you get a conflict of opinions then agree that we disagree and let it go.

Further, get some Moderators, or Freeze a problem posted Topic after posting why it was Frozen, with added suggestions as to what can be done to avoid this in future post. That way we see the issues taking place, and see that you have taken action and why. After 24 hours delete it.

Mike

Fight to win on the Track, not in the parking lot! I 
just love the " Ur # 1. wave " from fellow racers as 
we head home to our other lives !

Great post Dogwater. David I don't know you personally but I am a father like you and what you must be worrying about night and day with your son being in the hospital is unimaginable. Please know that we are all thinking of you.

I love this site. I tell everyone about it. I don't like the profanity on here even though I may have said one or two over these last couple years, I'm sorry. I am guilty of knocking some people and what they drive. Truth is, it is somewhat entertainment some of the things we talk about on here. I love all racing honestly. I like to jump on the sprint car wagon because they are my favorite. Heck, I went down to TMS dirt track this spring for the big modified show. Crazy huh? I think all our divisions at SFS are fun to watch because they are competetive within themselves and hey, it's dirt track racing!

So, I will watch what I say on your site, because I am very appreciative to have a great place to interact with like-minded racers and fans. But, a well posted, civil disagreement will be welcomed from time to time, just no more of this "you drive a factory stock, you suck" stuff. Thanks again David for this site!

"They're steering them sum bi***es with their right 
foot!"

David,

Best wishes for your son. I think everyone knows that I'm one of the people who apprecaite the more "social" aspect of this board. I agree with most if not all of Dogwater's post. conflict is sometimes a good thing. Take the black flagging thread, for instance, that thread is still alive and well a week later, and lots of differing opinions have been expressed. As I said in that thread, " I couldn't buy that kind of publicity". Name-calling and flaming are bad, opposing views are good. Whatever you decide, I for one will continue to post here, I'll just have to bite my tongue more.

What do you expect When you let political threads get started

good lord eric - where did that come from? lol

that was awesome! kind of speechless actually - doesnt happen often....

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

Eric, you know I have some papers due that I could use a good writer on...

David: Make all of the posters use their real names rather than a screen moniker. When you take away accountability, you get anarchy. That won't solve all of the problems -- jerks will be jerks -- but I think it would bring back at least some of the decorum. If we truly are a community of racing fans there shouldn't be any issue with signing our real names.

"I'd pay $15 to watch a sprint car sit still."

I agree I dont have a problem with others knowing who I am, and nobody should hide behind a screen name. If you have something to say let others know who you really are. Jimmy Minter Enid corner flagman. AKA dirtrack234

JIMMY MINTER 'AKA'dirtrack234                  
Yesterday 
is history, 
tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is 
why they call it the present.

Yup......

Thats what I think.!............Oh I not only agree, but my user name is my real name!!!

Your point is why I use my Name. After being viciously attacked on some old post by the Chicken Poopers with their cuite little user names. All hidding behind a vail of anonymous names while spewing anal seepage without aim or care over whom they hurt.

I wont hide from U and say things I wouldn't say in person.

Great Idea.......keeps most folks civil in tone.......EXCEPT for politics! Whew!

Mike

Fight to win on the Track, not in the parking lot! I 
just love the " Ur # 1. wave " from fellow racers as 
we head home to our other lives !

anal spewage? lol - whoa. thats pretty descriptive lol.

i see both sides to an extent with the user names. most of the time i have ever heard folks demanding to know someone's name - it was for less than honorable reasons. of course just about every single time it was on the tulsa racing board. but considering the topic it was stated in - who it was and how they were saying it - it was obvious it was for certian reasons. i mean - someone would get on a make a hell of a point - and then the redneck (no offense with the term) loudmouth who they got pretty good couldnt say anything of meaning whatsoever - so what would they do? try to discredit the good opinion by saying they didnt post their name. i could almost guarantee that 90% of the time someone was askin bout a name - it wasnt for any good or honorable reason. much of the time it would be to go slander that person in their lil social racing circles or worse. and what was amusing was - most of the time these people who would use the whole "use your real name" slogan - never even asked that person for their name or who they were. meaning a lot of the time that slogan is used as a defense mechanism when someone was made to look a fool...

now on the flip side of that coin. and it is a big flip side. there are some who just drop in to say something really mean, or personal, immature or disrespectful. there are different levels of it sure. saying something that may offend someone is wayyyy different than saying something hateful that is intended to not only hurt someone - but humiliate them. anyone who posts stuff THAT bad - will never use their real name. so yeah - maybe if everyone had to it would dissuade some from doing it. i can agree with that.

but lest we forget - we really hardly ever have that problem on this forum. whenever anyone does post something that is controversial - 95% of the time its not that bad. i mean - ya'll know what i am saying right? i've gave about 2500 opinions - and any 1 person could agree with many of them - and disagree with many of them. and more than a few have probably been offended at some point or another. but i dont personally feel i take it so far as to ever be hateful. i try to be reasonable while at the same time speaking my mind. i cant remember all of it - but i do know a few years ago - i'd shoot from the hip sometimes and miss badly. i know - i know - lol - some would say i still do. but if anyone remebers some of the more off the wall stuff i posted prob bout 4 years ago or more - you prob know what i'm saying. now i really do try to not disrespect people - and in gettin older just kind of accept that not everyone is gonna agree with me on everything - no matter how clear it might be to me. it gets frustrating tho - because still ever now and then how i'll mean something and how it is perceived by a few is worlds apart. i just chalk it up to maybe i didnt explain myself right - i can disgagree with how they took it - but i cant really say they were wrong to. in the end - whether long ago or now - it means i just have to be a lil more considerate in how i say things.

there is more i;d like to speak about and stuff on this - but I'm kind of taxed just typing now. i;ve had pnumonia (sp?) since wednesday and get gassed real easily. really blows - aint seen a race in 3 weeks and was lookin forward to catchin one this weekend with my ol man - but o well. rest n get better - watch lots and lots of football lol. the baylor game earlier was pretty good - glad i woke up in the 2nd half before it was over. ironic - been sick only once or twice in a few years - but this one must be making up for lost time - its a nasty one i tell ya. be glad when i cant taste food or drink again lol. there i go rambling - i;d blame it on the medicene - but i;m alwasy that way lol - so yeah.....

btw i guess since its what we talkin bout - if anyone ever wants to know my name - just ask. no big deal. i think like 95% folks on here would too. but we should recognize that all the BS most forums have - this forum prob has less than most all of em. i'll finish forming my thoughts on the original matter and refuel. sad when sitting upright and typing feels like hard work

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would