Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Jeff beat the All-Stars with a 360 under the hood this year, and in case you missed it, he had a pretty stout take on the future of winged 410 sprint car racing in SprintCar & Midget this month. Here are a few of the highlights...

410 vs 360: "410 cubic inch sprint cars will, and should be, a thing of the past. After putting in two separate seasons (2003 & 2007) of racing the 360 motors with less expensive ASCS heads and steel blocks, I fully understand why track after track seem to be saying so long to local 410 cars."

Wing Rule: "The only way to unhook the cars with a rule change would be to make the left side-board the same as the right side-board is now. Then everybody wouldn't have to throw out their wings and start from scratch, they could simply change out one side-board. That would make a serious difference in side-bite, which in turn would unhook the car dramatically. Less wing, less power needed."

Tire Rule: "I didn't see a big problem when we had to put on the 16" (wide right rear tire) for the ASCS show. I think 16" is a move in the right direction, but it plain and simply is not enough. The tire companies will probably freak out on this, but I believe we need to cut the left rear width back to around 12" to help take some of the drive out of the car. Less tire, less power needed."

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

So much for "bigger, faster, stronger...."

Is this sprint car racing's response to the Mitchell Report?

"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi

I'd say it is more like cheaper, cheaper, cheaper...lol. A lot of car owners are getting tired of having to wipe their asses with hundred dollar bills in order to finance a 410 car...lol.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Makes sense to me. 360 cars are usually better racing anyway. If it was about speed we would all be fans of F1, CART, IRL, NHRA, and visiting the Salt Flats. I like seeing cars sliding sideways through a corner and racing side by side, dueling back and forth. That's what I remember from the best races I have seen. Not how fast they were going. Otherwise we would all remember how Steve Kinser won the 30 Lap 1993 Knoxville Nationals in 9:00 minutes flat by almost a whole lap as the best race ever. OK, so I remember that one too. But I agree with Jeff.

Eric Arnold
Social Media Manager & Track Historian
Knoxville Raceway

You're thinkin' of 1992.

Although Stevie did set a pretty blistering pace in '93 before the damn rains came...

I think the promoter's made a mistake years ago.  Calling them 410's and 360's was a bad idea.  Because in order to drop 410's and make the 360's the premier cars, you have to sell less to your customers and make it seem like more.  When the 360's were called "Limited Sprints", that was genious.  But somehow we got to this 410 & 360.  Why can't we just call them all Sprint Cars and get a long?  I'm a dreamer I guess.

Eric Arnold
Social Media Manager & Track Historian
Knoxville Raceway

Thanks for the correction Chilly...my memory is slipping.  Stevie had them covered until the rain in 93.  You give Karl and Steve Kinser a red flag in the middle of a feature....unbeatable.  But then we would have missed that classic interview with T-Mac when Brock Yates asked, was the rain the reason for this?  And T-Mac GLARES at him and said "I know it was".  Lori still looks hot in the background though.

Eric Arnold
Social Media Manager & Track Historian
Knoxville Raceway

I would propose ONE class of sprint cars...to be called....sprint cars. Or, to be fair to the whole sport, bring back the term "super sprints" for winged cars.

Eliminate the two class system. It may not make that much difference on a 1/4 mile track anyway, i.e.Riverside. Just promote sprint car races. If you have a 410, fine. A 360? Fine. Have a common set of rules to loosen up the cars and just go race.

The main idea should be to SELL TICKETS and PROMOTE racing. It has been proven that people aren't going to attend "360" racing. It's percieved to be "less" The reason 360 racing is more popular among some promoters is that they can get away with paying a cut-down purse, which nullifies a large part of the supposedly "less cost" for the 360 racer. I've talked with many drivers and owners who run ASCS and the National Tour races aren't exactly setting turnstile records. How much longer can that go on? Are tracks making money with 360 races or just losing money with a bit less risk involved?

I really don't see a downside to this idea. The better funded teams are always going to have a horsepower advantage. This advantage also attracts the top drivers, best sponsors, ect. You will always have a "class system" based on money and talent. Even at the local level.

Without making separate competitve classes, you'll still have your outlaw calibre teams, your good locals, your field fillers, ect. I bet if you eliminated the 360 designation, you'd have more sprint car racing around the country, more fans in the stands, more cars at top races like the Knoxville Nationals and an overall better identity for the whole sport.

And, maybe, every once in a while, a good driver in a good 360 can shock the field. Wouldn't that make for a great story?

Imagine this John runs down 360 racing again. I know when the ASCS SOD group races in MI the sprint cars bring in the biggest crowds of the year for the promoters with many of them being standing room only. The promoters don't sell them as 360 they sell it as sprint cars. Limaland in Oh has a solid weekly crowd. If it were not for ASCS regions there would be many areas across this nation with no sprint car racing at all. If you want to compare 360 vs 410 lets throughout the ASCS National Tour and World of Outlaws and talk weekly 410's vs 360 (ASCS Regions).

I've been saying narrow tires and less wing space for awhile. But here is another thing. Tell Jac Haudenschild to slow down. He'll hate the idea.

I think that drivers like Jac would absolutlely LOVE smaller tires and wings. Making those changes would give driver's with a good feeling for the "edge" an advantage and isn't that what Jac is all about?

Maybe with smaller and harder tires and much less wings, the "410 vs 360" point would be moot. One thing for sure....the 360 division attendance #'s are only hurt by the perception of being "lower class", not by the action they provide on track.

I see Katich is doing a little dancing again so here we go.

In a previous post this was one of his responses - "what I said was that it had the best field of 360 racers in the country but people don't attend the show. And, therefore, 360 racing is not the answer." My question is this, if the Kinsers, McCarl's, Schatz, et al were the drivers in those cars, would more people be in the grandstands? My thinking is yes, therefore it wouldn't matter what size motors they had in them.

"I am now and always have been in favor of 410 racing over 360's in any shape or form. If there was a series of good-paying 410 races in the Midwest during the week when the 360 Nationals were going on, I'd give my wholehearted support to the 410's." Thank you for this statement, now we know that this must be taken into consideration when reading all of your other posts.

As far as your thoughts on eliminating the two class system, let me ask you this, since you say that "it has been proven that people aren't going to attend "360" racing" how would eliminating them actually make a difference in the grandstands?

"The reason 360 racing is more popular among some promoters is that they can get away with paying a cut-down purse, which nullifies a large part of the supposedly "less cost" for the 360 racer." Exactly how does a "cut down purse" have any relevance on what the actual cost of a 360 is?

"I've talked with many drivers and owners who run ASCS and the National Tour races aren't exactly setting turnstile records." I bet if you asked the promoters, no racing organization is setting any records, so let's not focus on your personal agenda with this example.

"How much longer can that go on? Are tracks making money with 360 races or just losing money with a bit less risk involved?" Why don't we ask the promoters and find out instead of speculating.

"I really don't see a downside to this idea." I do. Surely you don't think that a guys with a 360 motor are going to sign into the pit area and try to compete with the 410 on a regular basis, do you? If this were the case, why doesn't it happen more these days. Why don't guys like Jason Johnson and Wayne Johnson just use their 360 cars when the Outlaws come to Knoxville? Yes, you did state that they should unhook the cars, however, you can't really think that the top drivers and owners in this country are going to stand by and let this kind of thing happen to this extent?

Besides according to you "The better funded teams are always going to have a horsepower advantage. This advantage also attracts the top drivers, best sponsors, ect. You will always have a "class system" based on money and talent. Even at the local level." Isn't that, in fact, what you are trying to eliminate with your one class system?

"I bet if you eliminated the 360 designation, you'd have more sprint car racing around the country". Let's try this scenario, a guy has a 360 that may not be the most competitive car in the pits. He shows up every weekend but runs at the back of the A or maybe in the middle of the B Feature. When your plan gets instituted, now there are 4 more top cars that come in with their 410 motors. What is that guy going to do now? Basically he gets moved back 4 spots every night. I think you would have a lot of those guys that would just give up or go to another place where they could get back up those 4 spots. Just stop for a minute and think how many of these type of cars are actually out there now. My guess is that there are a lot more of these cars around than cars that can come in and be competitive. How would that give you more sprint car racing or give you an "overall better identity for the whole sport"?

Finally, "And, maybe, every once in a while, a good driver in a good 360 can shock the field." That is exactly what you have right now, so how would it be better with your one class system?

Thanks for the excercise, keep dancing.

Sweeton

Let the 360's run any fuel or aspiration.

I hear many people say it is way for the promoter to cut the purse. ASCS Region shows are not too far off from a weekly 410 purse and in some cases the ASCS purse is better. I know the ASCS purse blows Butler, MI 410 purse out of the water.

Fremont 410 payout

1) $2500, 5) $700, 10) $400 20) $250 or $90 tow if you miss the show

ASCS SOD 360 payout

1) $1300, 5) $500, 10) $310, 20) $250 or $100 tow if you miss the show

Overall I would say Fremonts purse is $1-2k overall more. Now if you look at operating expenses of a weekly 360 to 410 there is definetly more expense in 410's when it comes to motor maintenance.

I'm glad we can debate this subject.

My question to John K. is this:

Let's take a weekly 360 track that currently pays a purse like $1000 to win and $150 to start. Now let's say that weekly 360 track drops the cubic inch limit and runs (1) "run what ya brung" sprint car division. What kind of purse would you expect this promoter to pay?

...CZ

Z-Man...A track can pay any purse it wants. If you pay $1000 to win then then the guys who are interested in racing for $1000 will show up. Cubic inches has nothing to do with it.

Sweeton...you do well as a mouthpiece for Mr.Hahn. To answer the question as to whether fans will come out in great numbers to see top drivers in a 360 show, well the answer is moot. I don't think those guys would be much in favor of racing for the reduced purse that would go along with running 360's and most every driver who has been successful in 410's really don't like running 360's. And no, I don't think fans would come out in numbers big enough to support the kind of purse a track would have to pay to attract that calibre of driver. Fans aren't dumb. They know what they are watching.

I would think if you ask a car owner, you'd find the purse does have a factor in determining the financial risk/reward related to the cost of racing. I thought you would be smarter than that.

I believe, again, that a track can set its purse however it wants. In your scenario, if a track pays $3000 to win and attracts a good fiield of cars, and another track pays $1200 to win, maybe the guys who are making the B Main at track A can compete for a good finish at track B. Besides, how many tracks out there are fast 1/2 miles like Knoxville or Eldora where true horsepower matters? There are a lot more 1/4 mile tracks around the country where less horsepower can compete.

I find it interesting to see how 360 racing has tried to mask its product over the years, calling them Outlaw Sprints or Bandits or whatever without using the term 360 to differentiate from 410's.

Look, I'm not calling for the elimination of 360 motors. I'm simply saying the sport needs to go back to calling itself SPRINT CAR racing.

You know, I'd like to what your thoughts are as to the future of sprint car racing, Mr. Sweeton. Given your choice, would you prefer 360's replace 410's everywhere? What are your suggestions as to selling tickets? What about increasing purses? What do you tell a new fan about the difference in 360 racing from 410 racing?

Link to "410 or 360 Sprint Cars?" video segment from Speed Report a couple of weeks ago...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid340473122/bclid595125419/bctid1336665992

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Why does everyone continue to debate Katich? He obviously knows very little about the sport, and has an agenda in every post. John .. have you even owned or raced a Sprint Car?

funny thing is - 360's ain;t that much cheaper. just as 360's were the answer to 410's money wise. Now the 305's trump both in that aspect. Look at how fast the 305 series are growing.

but funny enough - we don't hear much of non-wings having these sorts of problems whether they do or not. we don't ever hear much about it.

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

thats hitting the nail right on the head.................

How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would