Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

.....he was as aggressive as all these young guns and had used the slide job like it was his job.  Love him or hate he has  a well earned reputation as a very clean driver.

I've never been a lover or hater of Donnie, although in recent times I find myself pulling for him.  Anyway, would he have more wins and more championships if he was as aggressive as all these others.

Just got to thinking about this with the Logan and David incident a couple of weeks ago and than Buddy and Tyler this past week and than all the discussion regarding the aggressive slide jobs over the weekend.

I just think what we have been seeing lately - makes IMHO what Donnie did for years very impressive.

No doubt Schatz is probably the clenest driver of all time. Certainly he is easy on equipment compared to many others, however, he also had some advantages that earlier drivers did not have.

1. He raced at a time when other drivers went off to race Nascar when previously their only option would have been sprint cars. Dave Blaney, Tony Stewart, Larson, and Bell. Plus, Jason Meyers left racing in 2011 after winning two WoO titles.

2. He also had the benefit of the format change where cars lined up side by side on restarts, and additionally putting lapped cars at the back of the field. (I realize this could hurt him as well, but when you are the fastest car on the track which he was for a decade, it would tend too favor you.) He also benefitted from the Nationals running 50 laps instead of 30. How many fewer would he have won if the race had remained the traditional 30?

I think it probably goes both ways and he's both won and lost races due to his less aggressive style over the years. The way drivers race each other tends to go both ways.

Counterpoint, Schatz has always been able to attract good car owners and good sponsors because he's easy on equipment and runs other drivers clean.

You bring up good points.  But I will counter:

1.  He won his WoO races and titles when the quality of cars in the starting line up in any race were FAR superior to the 80's and 90's.  Kinser was in a field with only a few other cars within a tenth or 2 of his speed.  There were cars starting features back then multiple seconds off the pace.  Brad Doty said it best---Kinser and Sammy used to run through fields of cars many of which were equivalent to today's 305's.  Brad's words, not mine.  

2.  Same thoughts for the Nationals.  Yes, he had 50 lap races.  But, once again, go back and look at the quality of the lap times posted by the entire fields of cars Donny beat versus some of those earlier Nationals.  It's all right there in Knoxville's archives on their web page.  I just went and picked 2 random years.  1990 and 2022, Donny's last win.  In 1990, the 19th place qualifying car on night 2 was an entire second off the pace.  In 2022, almost the entire 50+ car field was within a second and the 19th place cars was a mere tenths off of the quick time.  Point being, the cars when Donny won his 11 Nationals were far tighter in quality than in previous eras.  This isn't an opinion.  It's factual that there were more cars with top quality equipment racing against Donny, than there were against the others that won in the past.  Drivers that have been around forever will say it.  Owners that have been around will say it.  

Donny's definitely in my top 5.  He's even in my top 3 if we're just talking World of Outlaws career.  Maybe 2.  As RUNWYB says, cleanest driver ever.  

You can look at Schatz career in many different ways. But i think it's undeniable he's top 5 all time. 
 

1) He definitely benefited from Mark Kinser, Andy Hillenburg, Stevie Smith, Jason Meyers all either retiring early/ getting off the road when they did. I think any one of them could have been a wall for Schatz to climb over in the late 2000s. Dave Blaney as well. Does Schatz dominate the sport as he did from 2006-2010ish with a those guys still running well? Maybe but not to the degree in which he did. Meyers applies to 2012-15 in the same way. 

2) He also benefited from Larson and Bell moving so quickly to NASCAR. The 2015-19 Schatz likely doesn't get as many wins with those 2 playing the Kofoid role that is capping the wins Gravel would otherwise be getting.

3) the biggest thing in Schatz's favor and his historical standing is what egras mentioned: the era Schatz dominated was way more equal than the era the big 3 dominated. Cars were much closer in Schatz era than the big 3 era which I think makes the Knoxville record even better. 

let's flip this question just a bit, 

what if jason johnson had not dirtied donny at the nationals and donny had won? would the younger drivers still be racing so hard or over their heads? would donny have another championship? would the racing scene look different? always thought that was the turning point for today's racing scene where the respect for fellow drivers on the track went out the window but that's just my opinion

That and daddy has a big wallet so the driver doesn't have to fix or pay for the crashes.

I can't imagine driving now waiting for someone to drive into your left sideand crash the hell out of you.

NO RESPECT for the other guy is the problem

I don't think Jason "dirtied" Donny, nor do I think this has anything to do with the younger overly aggressive driving. IMO this has been a slow progression. I can remember my father talking about how he didn't like slide jobs from some of the WOO drivers. This was the mid 80s. 

If you think about ten years ago when JJ won, this was also the time when we started hearing about the name Kyle Larson... Before the current crop of drivers, who would you even consider aggressive? Kerry and Ian are two that come to mind. Craig Dollanski, Sammy...

Keep It Real

I think another problem is that a lot of these drivers have come up through the midgets and drive way too aggressively. Buddy and others have driven for KKR and jump into a sprinter with an all or nothing driving style.

I doubt it's ever quanitifiable but I'd say the development path is the biggest attributor to this style. It seems the majority of karts/quarter midgets/midgets guys all seem to be extremely aggressive. I don't personally prefer it and I'm not going to sit here and say it's ruining the sport - sometimes the results are breathtaking and sometimes the results are catastrophic. 

I know this is a little off topic. I think some of the younger talent coming through the kart and midget ranks have contributed to the increase in aggressive driving, however I don't fully blame this nor do I think it's a problem. 

This pathway has provided an opportunity for younger drivers to get into open wheel racing at a much more affordable cost. I hesitated typing affordable, but you get the point. 

There are multiple reasons why I think drivers are more aggressive now: Equipment is safer, stakes are higher, the cages are more enclosed, and the type of cars drivers are moving up from, like I previously mentioned. 

With all that said, I also think it's easier for drivers to promote themselves now than ever before. We can also probably use the word expose. I think Don Don has said, gone are the days of running someone over and then expect getting punched. 

Keep It Real

To your post and sprint fan's post.  Your posts got me recalling a discussion where Keith Kunz and Danny Dietrich had I believe a fun back and forth regarding this idea of aggressive midget drivers.  I wish I could find it as it was a fun watch.  
 

I believe some of this issue can/may be attributed to how young some of thes Kids are jumping in these midgets pumped full of big dreams and reasoning vs. risk vs. reward is difficult for such young kids to process.

Additionally IMHO this though is exponentially worse when these rides are bought.  In these rides when stuff gets tore up not sure the kids who tore the stuff up have work or help in rebuilding busted up equipment.  

I thought Buddy drove sprints before hopping into midgets?  

DSC--All great points.  I got looking at some of the drivers you mentioned because if memory served me correctly, with the exception of Jason Meyers, the rest of them had their best years behind them when they retired from full time racing. 

--Mark Kinser had 4 or 5 mediocre seasons before hanging it up.  Yes it was abrupt, but his dominant years were clearly behind him statistically when he retired at 42.  

--Andy Hillenburg--same scenario, though he was never as dominant as Mark, with the exception of the 7 wins he had his final season, his numbers had dwindled over the previous years as well.  He was never really a title contender at any point.  I think his best years had passed him, and I don't know if he would have posed much of a threat to Donny's numbers as Donny was just getting started.  

--Stevie Smith--Same.  During Stevie's final full time WoO years, Donny was pretty much keeping pace in wins as a young upstart in the family car.  Donny would have outperformed him fairly rapidly had Stevie stuck around longer.  

The only guy who retired in his absolute prime, and had a shot at really dwindling Donny's win total, was Jason Meyers.  However, that can be said about a lot of eras.  What if Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon remained in sprint cars and picked up big dollar WoO rides?  What if Sammy ran the number of races he was capable of vs. jumping discipline to discipline and only running a handful of WoO seasons?  What if Wolfgang actually chased the WoO?   What if Dave Blaney never left for Nascar start-and-park rides?  We could have the same exact argument about Kinser.  

Since we are playing, "What If?"

What if Steve and Karl had never split? Kinser would almost certainly have another 5 WoO titles and another 125-150 feature wins.