Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I've been there multiple times.  Amen on the crowd getting out!  Terrible!  That played into my decision for sure.  3 hour drive, but could spend an hour getting out!   

No HL driver is realistically going to run the HL series and skip the Crown Jewel events.  Per Donny Schatz, running HL penciled out as more costly than Outlaws, and I would assume because of this very thing.  ???  I'm assuming they figured in Royal, Nats, and....???   So "cheaper to run " has been debunked by TSR. 

Still waiting on an explanation on this one.  I have helped run businesses for over 36 years in the accounting office and have yet to see how when yon race less times it will cost you more.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

How many of those businesses were race teams?

How many of those businesses relied on sponsorship money (income stream)- which may be less with less races- as a major part of their financial plans?

If the answer to these questons is zero, the relevence of your 36 years of experience is zero as well.

First off the racing less myth is and always was a myth.  The fact always was they would race the same number of 410 races or more, just fewer of them would be POINTS  races where they would get guaranteed tow money.  No HL team in the top 10 in points has raced less than David Gravel.  Peck, for example raced at 11 WoO shows so far, where he didn't get the tow money, that's figured in the budget (around 10k for platinum members at those 11 races or around 100 hotel rooms for the team for the year which in a race team business need to be budgeted).  Also the HL west coast swing for Peck put them in hotels from Knoxville to Port, or for 30 days (3 Aug to 2 Sep). The WoO west coast swing put them in hotels from 5 to 22 Sep, or about 17 days. Again one of the costs that has to be budgeted for a race team.  I know you won't understand that, but TSR and Donny Schatz have experience running racing businesses and very little experience on the couch proclaiming to know better how to run a race team, race track, track prep, racing series etc... 

I could give you more reasons why race team budgeting wise it worked better for TSR but since you won't understand the above, I'll refrain from explaining things to a wall. 

Lol.  You can believe anything you want to, even though, they were making excuses to stay on the Woo tour.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

Thanks for proving my last sentence.

And why is that an issue?

Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

He's denser than pound cake.

It will be an issue or become an issue when some of the incredible sponsors of flosports and more particularly in this case flo-racing want their sponsorship dollars seen by more eyes.  Those same eyes that have more time to watch on these big show weekends when hi-limit is off and most likely a competitive business is being seen on Dirtvision...etc.   Therefore when hi-limit is being pushed by flo to fill the current off weekends because that is how flo's business model has grown..... It will now make hi-limit drivers more exclusive.

it has been enjoyable to read the comments about expenses etc......many here have probably heard the talk in Central Pa that for a competitive team capable of winning the per night cost  is between 4-$5,000.00 again this is locally not touring.  Strawser I understand what you are implying about racing less should cost less - but others have pointed out other cost variables the 15 team may have used as part of the equation when selecting WoO.  

However the variable that seals the cost factor for me though - if all the rumors and innuendos are credible regarding Tony's feelings towards WRG is despite this "perceived" feelings and his bias toward WRG they still run the WoO tour......What people are trying to say is Tony and Donnie are business men first racers second.   So one would have to tend to believe with Tony's displeasure with WRG their pencils were sharp and calculators tested for them to choose WoO over hi-limit.

I still would love to see concrete fuel costs, lodging and meals costs etc...Although my reasoning’s for going HUH? May be different than Strawser’S it still made me go HUH? When I first read the cost thing when racing less. If I knew how to post a smiley face, I would.

.

I know over 100 people that have run businesses.  Some were pillars of the community.  Some will be on a fast track to heaven.  Some will go straight to hell.  Many are successful.  Many end up in prison.  Not sure what your "credentials" have to do with this conversation.  

Why would that team need to make excuses about who they wanted to run with. You should stop sitting on your brain it's making you even dumber.

I don't think flo gives a shit or sees it as any kind of loss if the high limit guys run elsewhere when they are off. Why would they? The series was started to give racers a lesser schedule with only high paying races, and time off to race where they want, or take the weekend off when they are not scheduled. It's not a loss at all. It's a win/win.

If it actually costs 4-5G to run weekly shows, there would be zero cars at the track. It's expensive for sure but lets not get ridiculous. Last credible numbers I've heard were around half that. 

Donnie's been outlaw since what 1997? He's way up there in their record books for wins and championships and never broken ranks in 27 years. Gee I'm so shocked he didn't leave for high limit. 

Here's an idea. Since none of us know shit about these teams and their finances, lets just let them choose which series to run. I'm sure they all know what is best for their teams.    

A

In my head, I agree with it not costing that much for a weekly operation. I was surprised when I heard Dominic Scelzi had this to say on The Driver's Project podcast.

"I was actually just crunching numbers. To me, I feel like it costs us $6,000 - if we don't tear anything up - a night to drop the back door. That's everything included - that would be wages, that would be engine rebuilds, tires, insurance on the truck and trailer, rent on the shop - the whole shabang - fuel, and everything included is $6,000. And then you look at - you get a sponsor, you're gonna run 65 races a year and you get a sponsor that's $130,000, now you gotta come up with $4,000 a night."

The quote goes on further but he talks in 2021 being the first time the "car" was profitable as a business.He ran 35 nights and made $76,925 according to SprintCarRatings - this may just be purse money and does not include tow/t-shirts/other revenue streams such as sponsorship. Taking his $6,000 would put rough expenses for that year at $210,000, though it's very likely 2021 expenses were much lower. Even after factoring that in, that'd leave a $133K gap for those additional revenue streams to cover. That's also not paying himself any of the winnings and putting every cent back into the car. 

I also wonder if this gets viewed at in a similar vein to some Pro Sports Franchise owners primarily view their teams on their annual balance sheet and not as an asset that has largely increased in value. The types who say they aren't making any money despite owning a multi-billion dollar franchise that was purchased for far, far less. In the comparison here, I'm wondering if these napkin calculations factor in when equipment gets sold down the road - feel like that would be somewhat easy to overlook. 

I know racing sprint cars is really expensive, and I'm almost certain a majority of teams doing so are losing money. I'd be shocked for a weekly team to be spending $4-5K, unless we're really kind of twisting the rules and including operations like the Macri 39M, Brown 21 or similar Outlaw-comparable team. For example, I am far from an expert in Ohio racing, but I just can't see Jeff Ward putting that much into his car for Cap Henry to race. 

Kind of derailed the original point of this post - I'm wondering if the TSR calculation factored in the new tow money. That $800-1000/night would make a world of difference when budgeting out a season. 

I believe the series was started as a mid-week platform for the purposes of giving teams an opportunity to make some money during the week.  That is not the case anymore and someone is influencing this direction.  

 I can assure you as and avid fan of both wrestling (where Flo started) and racing, flo most certainly does care about being the biggest brand in streaming each and every sport they stream.  Don't believe me follow some wrestling discussions of flos battles with former employees and against its primary competitor Rokfin.  flo is the primary money for hi-limit and they are investing in it to be the biggest and best who can blame them and I love the fact we can watch so much...right now they are battling DIRTVision for top dog and that competitor has its top teams running the "granddaddies" while flo is not covering a their leading brand on flo racing on these 4-5 particular weekends.

Top performing local cars winning on a consistent basis are spending between 4-5,000 a show.  It is common talk In the pits that top dollar sponsorship on the WoO team starts at $1,000,000.00.  I have helped on team for almost 15 years not so much anymore as funds have limited the teams ability to race more frequently and competitively.  The primary sponsor/owner as recently as 2018 did the "math" and his total expenses to number of races was right at 2,500 per night and some of it was 360 racing not all 410.  I can assure you this man is good at math and even better at building an incredible business.  

The best teams tire bill is probably averaging 1,100 a night to run up front for the win when in 2018 average was 500 a night.  So I can assure you for winning teams spending 72-75,000 per motor running 75 shows and most likely needing to add a new one to inventory every year it is not ridiculous.  I saw the Ryder bill those years at 52,000 for a new one.  rebuilds were typically averaging $8,000 if the motor wasn hurt.

for the record i too believe run whatever you think is best for your team and Donnie and Tony made their decision based on economics and certainly not dodging anything.  

We can debate and opine the total costs all we want and some competitive teams may be more cost effectient and effective like the 57 was not bolting another set of Hoosiers on.

what is a fact is a set of rears is now nearly $700.00 and the best motors 70-72,000. I can get you shock prices it would blow your mind.  Not to mention rearends. 

First the local teams that are winning more frequently and can compete against the travelers are most definitely spending way more money to be capable of doing this.  Second the 39m and 21 aren't twisting rules they are spending more money to win - in essence driving the cost up the phrase "Cubic Dollars" was coined for a reason. Charlie Garrett motors are not cheap for the 21.

A local tea can be competitive under right circumstances especially in handicapping shows.  There is a reason most tracks have few true handicapped shows and I feel pretty confident that isn't being influenced by the higher budget teams.

Just for starters a team thats trying to be competitive and win a race or two almost always puts a new set of tires on for the night $700.00 and has an average motor which most likely is not refreshed ($8,000.00 minimum)near frequently enough is easily 2,000 a night. That is not taking into account fuel for the sprint car, generator, and diesel for the truck. Heck t

formthe tusky 50 an owner for a team of just 5 dropped $250.00 for pit passes.

Remember tow money is just that tow money to help defray the cost associated with travel per night.  Fuel, trailer costs, lodging food etc.

many local racers have gone bankrupt to fuel their addiction to speed.  by downplaying or forgeting each an every cost associated with this sport. Trucks that pull the trailer four wheelers etc..... this very smart business man figured all of that into the equation and I believe / trust him more as he was the one cutting the checks to pay the bills.

HL would be foolish to drastically change their schedule.   That is one of the appealing things about HL that has attracted so many full time drivers.    In their first season they already have more full timers than the Outlaws and many high rollers have cited the schedule as a reason.      And those guys didn’t drop off the tour like the doom-n-gloom folks here said they would do.    Below is what Brian Ridge said about the schedule.     I’m not trying to beat a dead horse with the same old repeated quotes.   This is from a Sprintcarunlimited article this past week. 

“Unless there is some seismic change, we are going to stay with High Limit and run as many Knoxville shows as possible with Aaron (Reutzel),” Ridge said. “We can go home a lot, and the freedom to pick-and-choose where to go is huge.

“The way they set their schedule up is more user friendly, whereas, we go with the Outlaws, and we wouldn’t have the opportunity to come home and race Knoxville. You are stuck where you are at, because they don’t let you race anywhere else. It’s just that freedom to go where you want and hit their shows.”      And that right there is why so many teams like HL folks….

HL can grow their brand other ways with bigger races, more Flo customers, bigger name full time drivers, more tracks or series, NASCAR guests, and more full time drivers.     I will believe your much repeated speculation (full time schedule and no freedom to race outside of HL) when it happens.     

Donny Schatz runs his own business.   If he ran with HL full time he would have to take a bunch of time off for their mid week races and the west coast swing.    Taking time off may cost him money.    With the WoO schedule he can run his business through the week and then fly to their weekend races and then fly how afterwards.  I have heard he flies home after the Saturday night race.     Considering his history, business, and airplane, the WoO schedule is perfect for him.

Not a myth....just in your own mind.  I have helped make budgets for over 35 years now.  I think I know what I am talking about.  It cost a lot of money to put a car on the track for one race.  I know I worked for someone that had one back in the day.  Even if everything goes great.  It is a losing deal for the owner and sponsors.  The only ones that make out on the sprintcar racing deal is the drivers if the crew members are paid.  Other than that it is a losing proposition.   Back in the early 90's it cost just to unload and race for an evening with everything going well about 3,000.00 a night.....probably more that double that in todays world.  That is including all the expenses you have from the engine to the tires and everything else in between....without paying for a hotel or room.  More races mean more hotel bills.  Means it cost more to race each race and with how the 15 is running lately he is not and his crew are the only ones making anything

I guess the outlaws aren't using hotels at all on there west coast trip?  Talk about your stupid comments.  

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

So they can say it is cheaper to do one rather than the other.  I call bull*hit on this and have from the very beginning.  Because that is what it is.

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

I'll type slower for ya.    The MYTH that High limit drivers (d r i v e r s, not s e r i e s);are running less races is false and was always known it would be false.  This is based on the FACT that the following drivers have entered the following number of 410 winged sprint car races prior to Friday night.

Gravel 59.           Sweet 60

Macedo 62.        Abreu 65

Schatz 60.           Courtney 63

Kofoid 63.           Marks 68

Scelzi 62.              Day 67

So who is running less????   Now where I went to school, I learned the numbers on the right are not less than the numbers on the left.   

Also reference hotels on the west coast swing.  30 nights out westwould be considered more than 17 nights, hopefully I typed slow enough for you to comprehend that.

I eagerly await your comments again denying those facts above even though it's the second time you have been educated on them. 

You will still argue the facts though because your opinion is again proved false.