HoseHeads.com | HoseHeads Classifieds | Racer's Auction
Home | Register | Contact | Verify Email | FAQ |
Blogs | Photo Gallery | Press Release | Results | HoseheadsClassifieds.com


Welcome Guest. Already registered? Please Login

 

Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead


Records per page
 
Topic: What if the problem is the cars? Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 2   of  26 replies
Murphy
October 12, 2019 at 07:45:04 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 1433
Reply

     What if the winged 410 sprint car has evolved into a monster that is so expensive, so high-test and so locked down that it turns most every race into a fast parade? And suppose that evolution causes the cost of running a car to so far outstrip the race track attendance, purses and sponsorship money available to keep enough racers in the game  to put on shows. Then what? Didn't Late Models go through a similar problem some years back?




Nick14
October 13, 2019 at 08:48:44 AM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 994
Reply

I think this can be said for all forms of racing, not just 410 winged. Technology & equipment evolve as well as knowledge about setups. 80s & 90s the difference between 1st & 24th might be 2-3 seconds. Now it's .2-.3 of a second or less. When cars are essentially running the same lap times you are not going to get Talladega on dirt which is what I think some people expect every race. 

 



cheroger
October 13, 2019 at 09:37:52 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 901
Reply

I agree, the equipment and technology has evolved in all forms of racing.  However, the various series, like USAC that are non-wing are still very competitive including a lot of passing for positions and require greater driver skills.  The winged cars in all series need changes that will unlock the cars and put the skill back in the hands of the driver.  Perhaps adjustments to wing design and tire sizes and compounds would be a good place to start.  What would the affect be if the wings were to be flat-bottomed?  The cars would remain the same in looks, the space for sponsors would not be reduced and the safety factor would remain.  This would un-hook the cars and reduce the added wear and tear on all equipment. 




beezr2002
October 13, 2019 at 10:15:55 AM
Joined: 04/21/2017
Posts: 199
Reply

Even wingless racing can be follow the leader sometimes due to technology, cookie cutter cars and parts. I live in wing country and I skipped quite a few races this year because I don't care for fast freight train racing. I never thought I would hear the term "dirty air" talked about so much in dirt track racing. I also think its sad that heat races are now follow the leader even on the smaller tracks. Like it or not, times are changing.



cubicdollars
October 13, 2019 at 12:00:02 PM
Joined: 02/27/2005
Posts: 4265
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: cheroger on October 13 2019 at 09:37:52 AM

I agree, the equipment and technology has evolved in all forms of racing.  However, the various series, like USAC that are non-wing are still very competitive including a lot of passing for positions and require greater driver skills.  The winged cars in all series need changes that will unlock the cars and put the skill back in the hands of the driver.  Perhaps adjustments to wing design and tire sizes and compounds would be a good place to start.  What would the affect be if the wings were to be flat-bottomed?  The cars would remain the same in looks, the space for sponsors would not be reduced and the safety factor would remain.  This would un-hook the cars and reduce the added wear and tear on all equipment. 



+1

 


 

 

 

They don't even know how to spell sprint car much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com


Murphy
October 13, 2019 at 12:23:13 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 1433
Reply

     I always thought of sprint cars as being untamed. Now, it seems like I keep hearing that because they can all buy the same off-the-shelf (expensive!) parts, there are 10-12 racers in the main that could win. Then, it sems like thing that seems to determine most of the the winners is starting position. 

     As I see it, the cars need to be just on the verge of being too much for the driver to handle. I want the driver's skill using his brain and both feet, and the set-up of the car to have more influence on the outcome than the amount of money dumped into the operation.

      There's an old saying "if it was easy, anybody could do it". How 'bout "if it was easy, most anybody with a little bit of talent and a wad of cash could do it reasonably well".




egras
October 13, 2019 at 02:33:11 PM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 2335
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on October 13 2019 at 12:23:13 PM

     I always thought of sprint cars as being untamed. Now, it seems like I keep hearing that because they can all buy the same off-the-shelf (expensive!) parts, there are 10-12 racers in the main that could win. Then, it sems like thing that seems to determine most of the the winners is starting position. 

     As I see it, the cars need to be just on the verge of being too much for the driver to handle. I want the driver's skill using his brain and both feet, and the set-up of the car to have more influence on the outcome than the amount of money dumped into the operation.

      There's an old saying "if it was easy, anybody could do it". How 'bout "if it was easy, most anybody with a little bit of talent and a wad of cash could do it reasonably well".



Once again, we all get caught in the same argument.  Would we rather have a field of cars where 1/2 of the field can win?  Or, do we want to go back to 21 field fillers and 3 cars .5-1 second faster than the 4th place car?  If we want to see fields where 10-12 cars can win, track position is going to matter!  If 10-12 cars can win, and we make the wing smaller, loosen the cars up, etc, this will still be the case.  10-12 cars can win, and track position will still be HUGE.  

To answer your original question, of course the cars are the "problem" if you think there is a problem.  I personally love the way the fields are tightening up and don't think this is a problem.  



Murphy
October 13, 2019 at 03:35:11 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 1433
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: egras on October 13 2019 at 02:33:11 PM

Once again, we all get caught in the same argument.  Would we rather have a field of cars where 1/2 of the field can win?  Or, do we want to go back to 21 field fillers and 3 cars .5-1 second faster than the 4th place car?  If we want to see fields where 10-12 cars can win, track position is going to matter!  If 10-12 cars can win, and we make the wing smaller, loosen the cars up, etc, this will still be the case.  10-12 cars can win, and track position will still be HUGE.  

To answer your original question, of course the cars are the "problem" if you think there is a problem.  I personally love the way the fields are tightening up and don't think this is a problem.  



     Why is the answer an either/or proposition? Could we have a field where half the cars can win that doesn't require everyone spending a crazy amount of money to make sure he ends up on the magic front row?

      To your second point- if 10-12 cars can win and we make the wing smaller, loosen the cars up, etc. >Wouldn't that mean there would be more cars around the country when the traveling groups come around because the costs were lower? Wouldn't it also provide more local hotshoes to defend the home turf, and by extension put more talent in the pipeline to move up?



linbob
October 13, 2019 at 05:27:42 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1250
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on October 12 2019 at 07:45:04 PM

     What if the winged 410 sprint car has evolved into a monster that is so expensive, so high-test and so locked down that it turns most every race into a fast parade? And suppose that evolution causes the cost of running a car to so far outstrip the race track attendance, purses and sponsorship money available to keep enough racers in the game  to put on shows. Then what? Didn't Late Models go through a similar problem some years back?



We do not need to allow all of this high cost items.  Multi adj. shocks at $1,299 each and even higher priced ones.  We had good racing with non-adj shocks.  Do we really need titanium bolts, brake peddles, wing trees and on and on.  We had good racing before Ti.  Carbon fiber bodies, we had good racing before carbon fiber.  Do we need 950 HP?  We had good racing with 800 hp.  Real easy to  control with 1.6 rockers, smaller  inj stacks to say 2.5 inch, lower compression to say 14.5.  These are all easy to check.  The WOO would never want this to happen as the local week end racers would have a better chance.  Those with the power to change things might get the point when only 15 cars show up for races.




beezr2002
October 13, 2019 at 05:53:15 PM
Joined: 04/21/2017
Posts: 199
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on October 13 2019 at 05:27:42 PM

We do not need to allow all of this high cost items.  Multi adj. shocks at $1,299 each and even higher priced ones.  We had good racing with non-adj shocks.  Do we really need titanium bolts, brake peddles, wing trees and on and on.  We had good racing before Ti.  Carbon fiber bodies, we had good racing before carbon fiber.  Do we need 950 HP?  We had good racing with 800 hp.  Real easy to  control with 1.6 rockers, smaller  inj stacks to say 2.5 inch, lower compression to say 14.5.  These are all easy to check.  The WOO would never want this to happen as the local week end racers would have a better chance.  Those with the power to change things might get the point when only 15 cars show up for races.



BINGO!!!



Pimpmobile38
October 14, 2019 at 12:46:03 PM
Joined: 11/21/2009
Posts: 62
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on October 13 2019 at 05:27:42 PM

We do not need to allow all of this high cost items.  Multi adj. shocks at $1,299 each and even higher priced ones.  We had good racing with non-adj shocks.  Do we really need titanium bolts, brake peddles, wing trees and on and on.  We had good racing before Ti.  Carbon fiber bodies, we had good racing before carbon fiber.  Do we need 950 HP?  We had good racing with 800 hp.  Real easy to  control with 1.6 rockers, smaller  inj stacks to say 2.5 inch, lower compression to say 14.5.  These are all easy to check.  The WOO would never want this to happen as the local week end racers would have a better chance.  Those with the power to change things might get the point when only 15 cars show up for races.



Bingo!!!!

Id also add go to a smaller (narrower) and harder RR tire. Also, a rev limiter would go a long way too. 9000 RPM is too much.



Murphy
October 14, 2019 at 04:27:26 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 1433
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Pimpmobile38 on October 14 2019 at 12:46:03 PM

Bingo!!!!

Id also add go to a smaller (narrower) and harder RR tire. Also, a rev limiter would go a long way too. 9000 RPM is too much.



     I disagree on having a rev limiter. Some years back, Husets Speedway tried to start a new class of sprints with crate motors and rev limiters. It seemed like most times, the cars would race up to the rev limiter and just stay there, running at the same speed, in the same order. They would usually hit that point at about the flagstand when the green waived.

     Better, I think- to loosen up the cars so that 9000 rpm's and 9000 hp don't help if the driver doesn't know how to handle the car and the track.




Igo-Ono
October 14, 2019 at 04:32:30 PM
Joined: 12/14/2004
Posts: 118
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on October 13 2019 at 05:27:42 PM

We do not need to allow all of this high cost items.  Multi adj. shocks at $1,299 each and even higher priced ones.  We had good racing with non-adj shocks.  Do we really need titanium bolts, brake peddles, wing trees and on and on.  We had good racing before Ti.  Carbon fiber bodies, we had good racing before carbon fiber.  Do we need 950 HP?  We had good racing with 800 hp.  Real easy to  control with 1.6 rockers, smaller  inj stacks to say 2.5 inch, lower compression to say 14.5.  These are all easy to check.  The WOO would never want this to happen as the local week end racers would have a better chance.  Those with the power to change things might get the point when only 15 cars show up for races.



This!



W2Motorsports
October 14, 2019 at 06:08:08 PM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 250
Reply

I think the racing can still be great, there is nothing profoundly wrong with winged, or wingless sprints. Could they be improved? Absolutely. But at least the races I've been to this season I've seen a bunch of great races, and a bunch of races won from the pole. If a race is won by the pole sitter it does not always mean it was a bad race either (third race of the season at Lincoln when DD won for instance). I think non-adjustable shocks would be easy, shock builders would take a hit but would sell more non adjustables which would make up some of that loss. Get rid of TI entirely. I like the flat wing bottom idea as well, but I don't think wholesale changes are needed to change the way the cars race, really costs are my biggest concern. 



hardon
October 14, 2019 at 11:26:08 PM
Joined: 02/20/2005
Posts: 176
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on October 13 2019 at 05:27:42 PM

We do not need to allow all of this high cost items.  Multi adj. shocks at $1,299 each and even higher priced ones.  We had good racing with non-adj shocks.  Do we really need titanium bolts, brake peddles, wing trees and on and on.  We had good racing before Ti.  Carbon fiber bodies, we had good racing before carbon fiber.  Do we need 950 HP?  We had good racing with 800 hp.  Real easy to  control with 1.6 rockers, smaller  inj stacks to say 2.5 inch, lower compression to say 14.5.  These are all easy to check.  The WOO would never want this to happen as the local week end racers would have a better chance.  Those with the power to change things might get the point when only 15 cars show up for races.



I remember when they were showing races on TNN back in the late 90s they talked about all the crazy stuff they were doing to save weight with titanium and all sorts of other things.  But what I've always wondered is, do the people who came up with these innovations (not just the weight saving stuff) regret it?  It's a monkey see monkey do sport (like any sport), so everyone else soon follows.  So they got a short term advantage but it made owning a sprint car a lot more expensive and that advantage is long gone.  I kind of chuckled when I heard Karl Kinser talking about how expensive sprint cars are now, I was just thinking "a lot of this is your fault".  Just to be clear, I don't mean to bash Karl Kinser.  I know people who are winning races aren't real concerned with what the state of the sport will be in 20 or 30 years and lets be honest someone else probably would've come up the the ideas, but I wonder if him or Sammy or any of the other innovators kind of regret adding those things.  




RodinCanada
MyWebsite
October 15, 2019 at 12:48:12 AM
Joined: 07/24/2016
Posts: 782
Reply

I doubt they have regrets. Instead they likely have a lot of pride knowing they came up with an idea to go fast that worked and survived the test of time. Like a hall of famer for innovation or builder.

As you said they know someone else would have figured it out so they as well have the honor.


Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

ILSPRINTS
October 16, 2019 at 11:33:45 AM
Joined: 02/12/2012
Posts: 285
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on October 12 2019 at 07:45:04 PM

     What if the winged 410 sprint car has evolved into a monster that is so expensive, so high-test and so locked down that it turns most every race into a fast parade? And suppose that evolution causes the cost of running a car to so far outstrip the race track attendance, purses and sponsorship money available to keep enough racers in the game  to put on shows. Then what? Didn't Late Models go through a similar problem some years back?



Indy car evolved into computer controlled go carts and the cost is mind boggling.


I tell it like I see it.

Murphy
October 16, 2019 at 02:18:44 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 1433
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: ILSPRINTS on October 16 2019 at 11:33:45 AM

Indy car evolved into computer controlled go carts and the cost is mind boggling.



     Yep- imagine what could happen to our sport if a bunch of money- like from NASCAR drivers, for example- was used to see who could outspend who.




revjimk
October 16, 2019 at 03:47:49 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 5043
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on October 13 2019 at 05:27:42 PM

We do not need to allow all of this high cost items.  Multi adj. shocks at $1,299 each and even higher priced ones.  We had good racing with non-adj shocks.  Do we really need titanium bolts, brake peddles, wing trees and on and on.  We had good racing before Ti.  Carbon fiber bodies, we had good racing before carbon fiber.  Do we need 950 HP?  We had good racing with 800 hp.  Real easy to  control with 1.6 rockers, smaller  inj stacks to say 2.5 inch, lower compression to say 14.5.  These are all easy to check.  The WOO would never want this to happen as the local week end racers would have a better chance.  Those with the power to change things might get the point when only 15 cars show up for races.



Exactly... make it an affordable "people's" sport again

By the way, where is the moderator to get rid of all the spam on this thread??????



BigRightRear
October 17, 2019 at 12:21:20 PM
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 3740
Reply

There is no good reason to long for a field of 410s that include cars that are 2-3 Seco seconds off the pace of the leaders.

Moving Chicanes are dangerous at these lap time. 

Cut down the straights, widen the racing surface and you will get an exciting night at the track.

Nobody truly wants to open up the engine rules for affordable horsepower...or drop a few inches of advertising space for a smaller wing so you have to start with something that the engine / team lobby cannot throw a fit about...and that is THE TRACK CONFIGURATIONS. 


Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May



Post Reply
You must be logged in to Post a Message.
Not a member register Here.
Already registered? Please Login





If you have a website and would like to set up a forum here at HoseHeadForums.com
please contact us by using the contact link at the top of the page.

© 2019 HoseHeadForums.com Privacy Policy