Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

It always seems like Wednesday is a low point night overall due to a heavier more narrow track. These Wednesday top point qualifiers should get kicked back a few rows after tonight. 

Another observation: In my opinion the point system short changed Ian Madsen's effort. 

Qualifies 5th. Starts 8th in heat 5 and moves up to 6th. Starts 3rd in B main and moves up to 2nd. Starts 22nd in A main and moves up to 6th. Seems a significantly better effort than Hodnet, but is only one place in front of him in the point system. 

I don't know. Perhaps debateable. Perhaps not. Noticing that Reutzel did well in qualifiying (3rd) and his heat (moved from 8th to 4th), but actually lost a spot in the A main after starting 7th. 

Being a stats guy (I teach AP Statistics) I'm wondering how fans would respond to normalizing qualifiying times based on order. The track obviously changes through hot laps and qualifying. Mathematically this wouldn't be too complicated, but might be tough on the average fan to comprehend. 

Here's the top 10 in points. Is there someone you feel is too high or too low in your opinion?

1 57 Kyle Larson 475
2 15 Donny Schatz 474
3 87 Aaron Reutzel 473
4 2M Kerry Madsen 473
5 49X Tim Shaffer 471
6 71 Gio Scelzi 468
7 18 Ian Madsen 467
8 27 Greg Hodnett 462
9 24W Lucas Wolfe 453
10 9 Daryn Pittman 452

The format used by Mansfield at the SCWC in April was pretty awesome. The field was split into two groups based off qualifying times (evens and odds). Then two full programs were ran inverting the top 4 of each heat race. Top 4 finishers from each heat were locked into the features while top 2 went to the dashes. The dashes had a random invert kind of like the WoO does. Then I think 3 or 4 drivers from each feature were locked into saturday while the remaining results determined saturdays heat line ups. So if you had a good night Friday, but didnt get locked in, you were still rewarded with a good starting spot in saturdays heats.

The reason they give the same amount of points for time trials as the a main is to ensure there is no sandbagging in time trials. 

Hodnett had a nice night and staying in front at Knoxville is a huge accomplishment because you really can’t hide there or block much if you’re not good. But he was already given a big advantage with the 8 car invert to start the a main. If you award more points to the a main, everyone will sandbag time trials like they do at the Kings Royal. 

Plus it’s a moot point, Hodnett will be in the top 16.

Looking at the order of points, it's obvious the format failed. 

Some of ya'll are being pretty big dummies!!! 

And blazer, I have been around for pre-Hard Knox format, which is kind of why I asked the question - with more cars locking in, it makes it less probable this happened back then.

If it were to happen tonight, I wonder if this would be a first.

Obvious the format is great as is. The top four in points were guys to both qualify and finish the A with a top 10 (and Ian in 7th).

The people who didn't qualify well got the benefit of starting towards the front for the money last night. The more consistant (qual/heat/A) get rewarded for the Saturday big money starting spots.

I don’t care what anyone thinks!! Been coming to this race since 1991, and I like this current system the best! Makes the Friday night show something to look forward to!! Biggest race of the year shouldn’t be ez to win!! 

Winner of Wed. Prelim on the pole, Winnger of Thurs. Prelim outside pole. The rest of the field lined up based on points back to 16th. Rest of the field set up as it currently is. 

Thanks,

Jeff.

Agreed. The valuable TT points drove Schatz to go fast then needed to work his butt off the make the A from his heat which he did not accomplish and then succeed at advancing from the B to the A. This expected winner passes 22 ish cars in the A main doesnt make the podium but created what I would have to assume was great racing to watch as he worked his way thru the field. Also the excitement of watching to see if he would even make the A main. Seems like a system that entertains fans and Schatz still got rewarded with being 2nd in points. The guys we know are better are ranked near the top after being forced to earn the spot and entertain the paying customers.

I think it works.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Then you wouldn’t be able to invert the top 8 for The prelim a main and you’d start all the fast cars in front. No thank you. 

Fair point I guess:

Highest Passing Points in Wed show on pole, Highest Passing Points in Thurs show outside pole

Second passing points in Wed show 3rd, second highest passing points in thurs show 4th

Winner of Wed show 5th, Winnger of Thurs show 6th (unless they have passing points to start higher)

Rest of the top 16 lined up by points.

Putting the fast cars in the back is overrated. How many races are won because won fast guy is able to quickly pass the slow cars wether by luck or whatever else and someone else is trapped further back and allows the first guy to check out, and the second car reeling him in but never gets there before the end of the race? I would rather see ALL of the fast cars start up front and let the fastest car win the race. This is the biggest race of the year and the main event definitely does not need the help of the fast cars starting out back to make it a good race.

Exactly! The drivers starting up front in the prelims with the inversion are already being rewarded enough, by their starting position. Why should they then also be rewarded with a pole on Saturday night by winning a race where the front row was already handed to them? Makes no sense at all. As it is, the guys from deeper in the inversion and beyond are at least  earning the spots up front, as they move forward in the prelim A.

BTW.....how is it Logan Schuchart has 400 total points?

200 (qual); 88 (5th in Heat); 112 (16th non transfer car that took the green in the B main)

The format is perfect. Anything else is just jerking off into a ceiling fan. 

The only thing I’d have changed about Wed would have been the track. It was a bit too narrow for my taste. Thursday is usually better in that regard.

This is the truth. The format wasn't the problem last night, nor has it ever been. It was just too heavy. Look at some of the cars that qualified through heats and that's summarizes it - the 10, 85, 15M, etc. I respect those guys for going out and racing but let's be honest, those are legitimately some of the least competitive cars in the pits last night.

As others have said, tonight should be much better.

There is nothing necessarily "wrong" with the current format (the cream rises to the top, as many have said) but just qualifying for a Nationals A Main is such a big deal that I think qualifying, which can be soo dependant on your pill draw, should be a tad less important to the overall point total. How about 100 for quick time, still dropping 1 points per spot, and then 300 for winning the main event dropping by 4 points per position, while leaving heat race points the same. That would make the per position value in qualifying less than when you are on the track with other cars and the track conditions are equal, but also more than a position in the heat races.

Some have mentioned sandbagging in qualifying to set up a better heat race and main starting spot, to navigate around that we could lock in the top 20 in POINTS after the heats with NO INVERT for the main. Reward the guys who have been fast all night to get around the possibility of sandbagging, and if they hold their spot in the main they deserve the points. Here is how the main would have lined up last night using this:

Row 1: Kerry Madsen / Aaron Reutzel

Row 2: Kyle Larson / Logan Schuchart (Logan's great Q lap doesn't go to waste)

Row 3: Tim Shaffer / Donny Schatz

Row 4: Gio Scelzi / Ian Madsen

Row 5: Brock Zearfoss / Greg Hodnett

Row 6: Lucas Wolfe / Dominic Scelzi

Row 7: Austin McCarl / Daryn Pittman

Row 8: Sammy Walsh / Lynton Jeffrey

Row 9: Matt Juhl / Paul McMahan

Row 10: James McFadden / Roger Crockett

The guys who made the A-main last night to be in the B under this format would have all been guys who qualified in the 30's and started front row in their heat.

This is just an idea and I'm curious to see what others think.

The biggest qualm I have with this format is it gets rid of the hard break in heat transfers, so you would lose those battles where a top qualifier is on the outside looking in and doing everything possible to try and grab the transfer.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this per se, but I still prefer the current system. While your system may have worked to put the perceived best cars (namely 57 and 15) off the front row, many times I think you would clearly get the fastest cars on the front row and have a snoozer of an A. 

I was thinking about this a lot last night. Lots of fast qualifiers not making the show and having to run the B main. I understand the want to make these guys RACE to get in. What if they still inverted 8 in the heats, take the top 2 from each heat to the main, and then the top 10 points earners through qualifying and heat points. This would give guys incentive to race up front, and a fast qualifier that finished 5th in his heat could still possibly get into the show. Just thinking out loud and maybe I'm missing something. All I know is, I'm hitting the road in a couple hours to haul a** to Knoxville and watch the racing tonight! I hope everyone doesnt let the format bug them too much and enjoys one of the best racing weeks of the year!!!!

Real race cars don't have fenders...