Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Doesn't  seem to be any right or wrong way to come up with a perfect points system for the Oulaws!

Does consistency count, do wins matter most.. what makes a champion a champion?  I'd like to open up a discussion

looking at the Oulaws and where the drivers currently are in points for example In no particular order

Donny, Brad,David,Daryn.Logan

Donny, David ,Shane, Logan with the most  wins

Brad between  Don and dave

daryn behind dave with not 1 win this season

logan down pretty far with the 3rd most wins if I remember correctly. 

What should matter who wins or who is consistent. What's everyone's thought on this 

Sweet has had a great year, just hasn't gotten the wins. More top 10s than Donny and 9 more top 5's than Gravel. 

I might give 5 more points for a win than they currently do, which would put gravel basically in a tie with sweet. Logan has been way too inconsistent this year so I have no issue with him being so far down despite the 4 wins. 

I think there should be more gap between 1st & 2nd than say, 2nd o& 3rd. Pretty sure thats the case, but IMHO, it should be a bit more

Point systems rewards consistency as they have always. Get out your calculator and everything adds up.

Could a non woo driver win the while thing if they ran the while season and placed well consistently like schatz does? I'm thinking of the points platinum drivers get. Do these points guarantee a plat member will finish at the top. Example. Madsen. Wins lots if he ran the whole season but not as a plat member could he win it?

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

No extra points for being a Platinum member.  Those members do have some benefits like owner points for medical exemptions, etc for up to 6 races.  Tow money is the biggest advantage, so crazy not to join the Platinum club if planning on points racing every race.

Don't have to be Platinum to place or win in the championship points.  

No point system is ever perfect.   They all have a negative side.    The problem with the WoO has always been a lack of true competition.    You've had two different drivers in different eras dominating year after year, first Kinser and now Schatz.   What do you do to stop Kinser from getting so far ahead in points, sometimes early in the year?    You tighten up the points and give more points to 2nd, 3rd, etc.    The only problem with that is when the 2nd in points driver wins and Kinser still finishes 2nd or 3rd, then that 2nd place driver is hard pressed to make up any points and give him serious competition for the title.

I'm not even sure what the current WoO point system is, I just remember how it used to be and why they started tweaking it.   No matter what they do though, it may do very little to change who's the champ at the end of the season.     

Here is the current WoO Craftsman Sprint car points systems.

The system design definitely is in a drivers best interest to be consistent and

avoid any DNFs. If a driver gets off to a slow star or has numerous DNFs, then are playing catch up all year

and that will never work out as history has shown, when competing with S. Kinser, and Schatz. You have to be a Top 5

car every single night and win races. The WoO tweaked the system a couple of years ago and now award no points for

qualifying. The spread from winner to 2nd place was increaded to 4 points.

Just like any sport, if you start slow or have a slump at some point, then its hard to make up that lost ground

One-day show                        Days All Qualifying
1. 150    14. 122                        1. 40    14. 27
2. 146    15. 120                        2. 39    15. 26
3. 144    16. 118                        3. 38    16. 25 
4. 142    17. 116                        4. 37    17. 24
5. 140    18. 114                        5. 36    18. 23
6. 138    19. 112                        6. 35    19. 22
7. 136    20. 110                        7. 34    20. 21
8. 134    21. 108                        8. 33    21. 20
9. 132    22. 106                        9. 32    22. 19
10. 130  23. 104                      10. 31    23. 18
11. 128  24. 102                      11. 30    24. 17
12. 126  25. 102                      12. 29
13. 124  26. 102                    
 

A.) 90 (show-up) points will be awarded to all members in good standing, who attempt to qualify a car, but fails to
qualify for the feature event in a one-day event or the final day of a multi-day show.

B.) 10 (show-up) points will be awarded to all members in good standing who attempt to qualify a car, but fails to
qualify for the feature event on a qualifying day event.

C.) If a race is cancelled and rescheduled and a member in good standing is unable to return due to extenuating
circumstances then that member may be awarded show-up points if they were present and prepared to race on
the original date.

D.) Points will be awarded for overseas events or special events, as agreed with members in good standing,
utilizing show-up points.

Any Platinum or Gold Member Driver and/or Team unable to attend an event because of any unforeseen
circumstance, as determined by WoO Officials, may receive 50 points per race. The grace period allotted for
this circumstance is 6-races or 14-days, whichever occurs first. Benefits may cease after this time period.
During the grace period any involved driver or team participating in a non-sanctioned event will immediately
lose all Benefits.

As determined by WoO Officials, 90 points may be awarded to any Platinum or Gold Driver or Team in good
standing that is physically present at an event but is unable to compete. The grace period allotted for this
circumstance is 6-races or 14-days, whichever occurs first. Benefits may cease after this time period. During
the grace period any involved driver or team participating in a non-sanctioned event will immediately lose all
Benefits.

Any points system works the same for all the participants involved. I think it's pretty obvious to most, as to who the season champion is at the end of each year (what NASCAR has done is a frickin joke!). Winning and consistancy are key of course, but too much emphasis on winning is not an accurate criteria. In 2013 Pittman wins the title with 8 Feature wins, while Schatz had 23 and finished 14 pts behind Pittman. Schatz had a terrible start to the year. Pittman on the other hand started out hot. Pittman cooled off in terms of wins, but remained consistantly at the top each night. Schatz got hot the end of the season and couldn't quite finish the comeback. Pittman also stumbled some late in the year. So, was the season's end result right or wrong in crowning a champion? The arguement boils down to "iffs" and "buts", but that's not how a points system works. If anything, I think the 2013 season shows just how accurate the WoO points system really is, or was. The answer to a driver/team dominating the sport, is not to design a points system that might tighten up the standings and penalize the dominating driver/team. What it boils down to is all other drivers/teams need to figure out how to win more and finish higher all season long, and WIN the title. 

 "In 2013 Pittman wins the title with 8 Feature wins, while Schatz had 23 and finished 14 pts behind Pittman"

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but to me, that's not the right way to do it. Schatz should have been champ

It all came down to Qualifying points. 13 fast times over 3 was a 50 point swing.

Plus I don't know how many points were earned for both timing 2-5, so it could have been more or less.

Pittman earned it basd on the point system in place at the time.

Also remember back when Lasoski earned the title over Mark Kinser and the Dude earned more preliminary night points over Mark giving him the title. A lot of people were disgruntled over that. But, Danny earned it based on the point system in place at the time.

Too me the biggest travesty with WoO History is the organization didn't count Prelim wins for years. How can you not count the Prelim night win when you beat the same guys on Night 1 of an event???? Every organization has its flaws, and that was a big one with the WoO organization to me. It is what it is... 

2013 WoO Point Stanidng

Driver                                  Total     Diff       Wins      T-5        T-10      QT

1 Daryn Pittman               10116            0            8          45        59        13

2 Donny Schatz               10102         - 14         23          46         61         3

3 Paul McMahan               9780       - 336           4           32        54        17

4 Joey Saldana                 9485       - 631           1           21        43          7

5 Craig Dollansky              9405       - 711          6            19        39          1

6 Sammy Swindell             9296      - 820          3             16        41          4

7 Cody Darrah                   9104      -1012         2             12        28          2

8 Steve Kinser                   9039      -1077         2             10        32          0

9 Jason Sides                    8924      -1192         0             14        33          1

10 Kerry Madsen               8879      -1237         3             14        36          1

2001 WoO Point Standings
Driver                            A-Main Wins    Points
1. Danny Lasoski                4                9,875
2. Mark Kinser                  16                9,845
3. Steve Kinser                   6                9,673
4. Craig Dollansky              2                9,361
5. Donny Schatz                 6                9,339
6 Andy Hillenburg               7                9,287
7. Joey Saldana                  1                9,238
8. Tim Shaffer                     2                9,198
9. Stevie Smith                    6                9,169
10. Jeff Shepard                  2                9,122

"Too me the biggest travesty with WoO History is the organization didn't count Prelim wins for years. How can you not count the Prelim night win when you beat the same guys on Night 1 of an event???? "

Agreed

What do they mean by "Days All Qualified"?

I pretty well agree with that, and Saldana should have been the champ the year he won 21 races.   

It's all in the numbers. If they start 24 cars then the winner gets 24 pts and the guy last gets one. Everyone wants to see a large humber, WHY ? it only makes things more complicated.  You win, you get the most points. It would also give the guy/team that is the most consistent the title. Because you win the most races doesn't mean you were the most consistent thru the year. 

No, he shouldn't have been champ, or he would have been. Under that ponts system the right guy won. It's been posted that the qualifying points offset it to the point where Schatz would have won "if" qualifying points didn't exist. Yet, there are many who bitched that Schatz was "sandbagging" so as to make the invert for the heat races. So, those who believe that was the case are then also saying that Schatz should have been rewarded for "sandbagging".  I for one do not like qualifying points because there are too many variables that can influence a drivers qualifying time, like pill draw. The other thing then to consider is this....if the driver who finishes 10th in the standings, had the same number of wins as the guy who finished 9th, but he had more top ten finishes than the guy ahead of him, should he have finished ahead of that driver because he had more top tens? No....he wasn't as consistant. Too often the naysayers only use the top 2 or 3 positions to ridicule a points system, or the number of wins. Yet the system is just as important for those not running for titles every year, and the ones who don't accumulate a lot of wins.

I have always thought that qualifying points are stupid, especially in dirt racing where your pill draw can make a big difference in where you qualify as the track goes away. 

I agree rev. ^^

Have they ever had this situation 

where they would drop 1 or 2 of the drivers worse night of points

example if a driver had a bad night and finished 20th  or had a blown engine etc

every team gets to drop their worst points race

I agree with everything you're saying.  I just want to add that wins should not be the biggest factor in determining a champion because what if a guy wins 30 races but only runs half of them?  Does he deserve to be the champion?  To me the champion is supposed to be the guy who has run the best in ALL of the races combined.  Like you also said the points are the same for everyone and everyone knows the rules before the year starts.  As well as Schatz and Kinser ran through the years, do you guys really think they wouldn't have won the championship in those years if it was under a different system?  And if those guys are running that well why penalize them for it by changing the system to make it harder for them to win?  I say leave the system alone.  Like you also said Look at what NASCAR has done, I don't think anybody likes that system.

I have to say as a whole I hate any point system.  I like the idea of crowning a champion but I hate points racing.  I just wish there was less emphasis on the championship.  I always like when a driver would say "I just race hard every race and let the points fall where they will."  I should say I've never heard a professional racer say that just local racers.