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Topic: Racesaver mess in TX Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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larryitis
July 09, 2017 at 10:10:56 PM
Joined: 12/21/2010
Posts: 840
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What's a 'hard card'? 


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larryitis   Facebook - Michael Collins 


Murphy
July 10, 2017 at 07:24:03 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
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Posted By: larryitis on July 09 2017 at 10:10:56 PM

What's a 'hard card'? 



    Maybe it's some sort of scorecard so we can follow what in the world this thread is all about?



vande77
July 10, 2017 at 10:44:48 AM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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So, you're saying Racesaver's may not be the "no one can cheat" series it's made out to be??

Anytime IMCA is involved, I've never seen much good happen.  Crate motors are outrunning open motors in IMCA Modifieds every week in Iowa.  Somehow they can be down 100 HP on a wet, tacky track and drive away from an open motor....




IADIRT
July 10, 2017 at 11:05:07 AM
Joined: 04/29/2014
Posts: 1204
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Posted By: vande77 on July 10 2017 at 10:44:48 AM

So, you're saying Racesaver's may not be the "no one can cheat" series it's made out to be??

Anytime IMCA is involved, I've never seen much good happen.  Crate motors are outrunning open motors in IMCA Modifieds every week in Iowa.  Somehow they can be down 100 HP on a wet, tacky track and drive away from an open motor....



I'd be willing to bet over half of the crate motors out there are not legal. Whether they have been opened up and built of is they are having a shutoff for the chip under the seat. The tech done by the IMCA is next to worthless... When the Crates are out pulling the open motors down the stretch and into the corner, something is up.



vande77
July 10, 2017 at 11:11:59 AM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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Posted By: IADIRT on July 10 2017 at 11:05:07 AM

I'd be willing to bet over half of the crate motors out there are not legal. Whether they have been opened up and built of is they are having a shutoff for the chip under the seat. The tech done by the IMCA is next to worthless... When the Crates are out pulling the open motors down the stretch and into the corner, something is up.



I'd say half is an understatement.  IMCA made it easy to cheat, you just have to have a Crate motor and they don't question them at all.



W2Motorsports
July 10, 2017 at 12:55:20 PM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 292
Reply

I've spent a lot of time dealing with modifieds and I can tell you that cheating happens, but certainly not to the level you guys make it out to be. Often times drivers are caught quickly and the punishments are harsh - that goes for all of Crate racing too, not just IMCA mods. The bigger factor (at least when I was involved) was the rock hard G60 tires making it almost impossible to put any type of power down (whether it is from a crate, or an open motor). In addition crate cars used to have (and probably still do, but not sure) a spoiler where open cars did not. That helps more than you would expect too. Its not easy to cheat up a crate, you need to have a way to re seal it without getting caught, and you need an engine builder who is willing to risk losing all of their crate business by cheating. Look at the cars that have been caught this year alone, drivers get suspended for a year or better, and engine builders are permanently banned from anything to do with crate motors. 

I prefer open motors too, but there is a place for Crate racing. As the group of people interested in racing gets smaller and smaller we should be doing what we can to get more people involved (in this case, there are a lot of people who don't have the time, or knowledge to deal with their own built motor building and maintenance, and may be priced out from having one built). The IMCA Mods must be doing something right, there is not a single division of racing in the country fielding more cars at more tracks than them week to week. 

The same can be said for Racesaver Sprints, you might not like them but look at them all over the country. Here in PA they draw more cars than any other division at most of the tracks they visit. More 305s show up at Port than 410s on most of the nights they run and 410s are significantly more established here. Its a good division and a good way to get people started in Sprint racing so that they can move up to the next class. The rules keep them affordable, there are many examples of people winning races on motors they bought used for pennies compared to what you would spent on a good 360 or 358. 

Thanks,

Jeff.




Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
July 10, 2017 at 01:39:25 PM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1457
Reply

The problem with the original post is the first 8 words "After hearing this story while sitting in Lawton".

Of course something that someone heard second, third or fourth hand has to be true!! wink


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

IADIRT
July 10, 2017 at 03:03:43 PM
Joined: 04/29/2014
Posts: 1204
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Reply to:
Posted By: W2Motorsports on July 10 2017 at 12:55:20 PM

I've spent a lot of time dealing with modifieds and I can tell you that cheating happens, but certainly not to the level you guys make it out to be. Often times drivers are caught quickly and the punishments are harsh - that goes for all of Crate racing too, not just IMCA mods. The bigger factor (at least when I was involved) was the rock hard G60 tires making it almost impossible to put any type of power down (whether it is from a crate, or an open motor). In addition crate cars used to have (and probably still do, but not sure) a spoiler where open cars did not. That helps more than you would expect too. Its not easy to cheat up a crate, you need to have a way to re seal it without getting caught, and you need an engine builder who is willing to risk losing all of their crate business by cheating. Look at the cars that have been caught this year alone, drivers get suspended for a year or better, and engine builders are permanently banned from anything to do with crate motors. 

I prefer open motors too, but there is a place for Crate racing. As the group of people interested in racing gets smaller and smaller we should be doing what we can to get more people involved (in this case, there are a lot of people who don't have the time, or knowledge to deal with their own built motor building and maintenance, and may be priced out from having one built). The IMCA Mods must be doing something right, there is not a single division of racing in the country fielding more cars at more tracks than them week to week. 

The same can be said for Racesaver Sprints, you might not like them but look at them all over the country. Here in PA they draw more cars than any other division at most of the tracks they visit. More 305s show up at Port than 410s on most of the nights they run and 410s are significantly more established here. Its a good division and a good way to get people started in Sprint racing so that they can move up to the next class. The rules keep them affordable, there are many examples of people winning races on motors they bought used for pennies compared to what you would spent on a good 360 or 358. 

Thanks,

Jeff.



Anyone sending in an IMCA 604 crate engine to get the MRE "IMCA 604 cheater package", please do not disturb or remove the IMCA tags... We can reuse your existing tags no problem if you do not tamper with them.

#IMCA604cheaterpackage #therearenorules #revolution

 

Yeah, these engine builders are so worried about losing business that they advertise this. This is Mullins Race Engines. I agree with Vande. I bet the cheating takes place more frequently than I think and not less. They have a seal. Great! We won't pump, tech, or test them for anything cause its sealed. Just like 305s are not the answer neither are racesaver 305s. These classes shouldnt exist. We get so many "Cost saving classes" how much smaller can a motor get? The smaller the motor the more expensive it is to get more power out of it. They water down the total amount of races in each class while not containing costs at all. Do I have all the answers? No, but neither does IMCA.



IADIRT
July 10, 2017 at 03:05:10 PM
Joined: 04/29/2014
Posts: 1204
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Reply to:
Posted By: IADIRT on July 10 2017 at 03:03:43 PM

Anyone sending in an IMCA 604 crate engine to get the MRE "IMCA 604 cheater package", please do not disturb or remove the IMCA tags... We can reuse your existing tags no problem if you do not tamper with them.

#IMCA604cheaterpackage #therearenorules #revolution

 

Yeah, these engine builders are so worried about losing business that they advertise this. This is Mullins Race Engines. I agree with Vande. I bet the cheating takes place more frequently than I think and not less. They have a seal. Great! We won't pump, tech, or test them for anything cause its sealed. Just like 305s are not the answer neither are racesaver 305s. These classes shouldnt exist. We get so many "Cost saving classes" how much smaller can a motor get? The smaller the motor the more expensive it is to get more power out of it. They water down the total amount of races in each class while not containing costs at all. Do I have all the answers? No, but neither does IMCA.



FYI, The quote from Mullins Race Engines was from a early March facebook post. Look it up. I don't have facebook but it is a public page so anyone can view it.




GTigers55
July 10, 2017 at 03:38:15 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 420
Reply

The 305 division in Ohio is very strong. Northwestern Ohio between Fremont and Attica (NOT racesaver, just 305s) it's a very strong class with good car counts and racing. Down south there is also a racesaver group around Atomic Speedway and surrounding tracks. It works fantastic here and really haven't heard much complaining. It's not cheap but it's much cheaper than a 410. This isn't pro IMCA or anything, I don't really follow their stuff. But the Fremont/Attica 305s do work.



W2Motorsports
July 11, 2017 at 09:41:12 AM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 292
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Reply to:
Posted By: IADIRT on July 10 2017 at 03:05:10 PM

FYI, The quote from Mullins Race Engines was from a early March facebook post. Look it up. I don't have facebook but it is a public page so anyone can view it.



I'm not sure that I want to put much stock into what an engine builder says about how good or bad a crate program is. That is like asking a cashier at the grocery store if they like self check outs or not. Mullins has a vested interest in discrediting the crate program. Thousands of drivers are running crates all over the country, they are not all suddenly going to have an extra $5-$10k to drop on top of what they spent on the crate to run built motors. Racing is in a sad state currently, and without crates it would be a lot worse in my opinion. I know too many people who don't know the first thing about building and refreshing their own motor. The crate program takes care of that, and it has allowed many more people a way to get into racing and that is a good thing in my opinion. 305s are still not crate engines but they have at least made it possible for some lower budget guys to get into Sprint Racing. I saw a Racesaver 305 car for sale earlier this year for less than $6k race ready. It certainly wasn't the taj mahal of Sprint Cars but it gets you on the track, and that is another car to add to the car count for a series and track. If you do away with 305s then they have to buy a 360, and I don't think you will find many 360s around for any less than twice that amount. 


Its an important division in Sprint Car racing and I'm glad its here and hope it is here to stay. 

 

Thanks,

Jeff.



staggerman
July 11, 2017 at 10:25:48 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 636
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Reply to:
Posted By: GTigers55 on July 10 2017 at 03:38:15 PM

The 305 division in Ohio is very strong. Northwestern Ohio between Fremont and Attica (NOT racesaver, just 305s) it's a very strong class with good car counts and racing. Down south there is also a racesaver group around Atomic Speedway and surrounding tracks. It works fantastic here and really haven't heard much complaining. It's not cheap but it's much cheaper than a 410. This isn't pro IMCA or anything, I don't really follow their stuff. But the Fremont/Attica 305s do work.



But cheating is rampant with the Ohio 305's and both tracks stick their heads in the sand in regards to teching. There are guys running 360 motors as 305's. If no one is watching guys will stretch the rules.




IADIRT
July 11, 2017 at 10:42:19 AM
Joined: 04/29/2014
Posts: 1204
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Reply to:
Posted By: W2Motorsports on July 11 2017 at 09:41:12 AM

I'm not sure that I want to put much stock into what an engine builder says about how good or bad a crate program is. That is like asking a cashier at the grocery store if they like self check outs or not. Mullins has a vested interest in discrediting the crate program. Thousands of drivers are running crates all over the country, they are not all suddenly going to have an extra $5-$10k to drop on top of what they spent on the crate to run built motors. Racing is in a sad state currently, and without crates it would be a lot worse in my opinion. I know too many people who don't know the first thing about building and refreshing their own motor. The crate program takes care of that, and it has allowed many more people a way to get into racing and that is a good thing in my opinion. 305s are still not crate engines but they have at least made it possible for some lower budget guys to get into Sprint Racing. I saw a Racesaver 305 car for sale earlier this year for less than $6k race ready. It certainly wasn't the taj mahal of Sprint Cars but it gets you on the track, and that is another car to add to the car count for a series and track. If you do away with 305s then they have to buy a 360, and I don't think you will find many 360s around for any less than twice that amount. 


Its an important division in Sprint Car racing and I'm glad its here and hope it is here to stay. 

 

Thanks,

Jeff.



If the tech was better I could see the use for a crate 305 class, I do. It just doesn't seem to happen in most places and I promise you people are willing to spend 5-10K more for a slight edge. Thats just racing and people. We do what we need to do to win which often involves cheating. I don't mind 305s as much as I hate on them here but we need to be careful to not create too many divisions. We are just watering down the car counts possible. Too many divisions just divide possible drivers and make it hard for tracks to share cars between tracks because they run such different rules.



Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
July 11, 2017 at 11:04:22 AM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1457
Reply

I beg to differ. If it wasn't for the Racesaver class, you would have one heck of a lot less sprint cars racing.

I don't know if you've read any of the interviews that I've been doing with racers from last year's Racesaver IMCA Sprint Nationals, but almost every single one of them has said how affordable the series is, and a lot of them stated that they wouldn't be racing sprints without it.

http://www.hoseheadforums.com/forum.cfm?ThreadID=102781


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

W2Motorsports
July 11, 2017 at 02:34:38 PM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 292
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Reply to:
Posted By: Eagle Pit Shack Guy on July 11 2017 at 11:04:22 AM

I beg to differ. If it wasn't for the Racesaver class, you would have one heck of a lot less sprint cars racing.

I don't know if you've read any of the interviews that I've been doing with racers from last year's Racesaver IMCA Sprint Nationals, but almost every single one of them has said how affordable the series is, and a lot of them stated that they wouldn't be racing sprints without it.

http://www.hoseheadforums.com/forum.cfm?ThreadID=102781



I have been reading that thread, thank you for taking the time to post it. The Racesaver class is not only affordable but the racing is great. The best part is that with all of the smaller 305/Racesaver series that are around the country it is bringing Sprint racing to place where it otherwise wouldn't occur. 




VoiceOfTheSpeedway
July 11, 2017 at 03:57:28 PM
Joined: 06/18/2005
Posts: 196
Reply

Half of our 30 car weekly Racesaver sprint car field is comprised of drivers that 4 years ago were either racing in a lower division (from karts and mini sprints to sport compacts to  modifieds or late models) or not at all......tha balance is made up of retired racers coming back or ex- 360 drivers looking for a more affordable alternative.....another key factor is the purse breakdown with good amounts of money at the rear of the finishing order.......all the posts about crate and cheated crate engines have absolutely nothing to do with this thread.......is the Racesaver teching system perfect in ALL regions?....absolutely not, BUT.....it's definitely headed in the right direction and with the people in charge  I don't think the basic rules package will ever change....at Eagle Raceway, the top four finishers in every A Main are thoroughly tech weekly......I was amazed at how fast the Racesaver cars were last Monday at Belleville.......looking forward to the 5th Annual Racesaver Nationals this Lbor Day weekend at Eagle Raceway.......where I know all the cars will undergo a rigid tech inspection before even turning a wheel on track.....with 117 entries last year (and growing)  sprint car =fans might want to check it out..................SC





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