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Topic: WoO and Support Classes... or the lack thereof Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 3   of  52 replies
GTigers55
April 16, 2017 at 07:36:14 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 420
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Recently this has become a hotly contested topic on twitter in the dirt world and was wondering what y'all's OPINION is on this. Basically Brian Brown said on twitter that he doesn't think the WoO should have a support class at any of the races in response to the race at Gator Motoplex having the 305s run their feature prior to the WoO feature. Brad Doty later agreed saying that it helps them progress the show more smoothly and that's why he won't have supports for the Brad Doty Classic.

Personally, I like having support classes whether or not you're the greatest show on dirt. I personally would rather see more than one class race every time I go to a track even if it is for the WoO. There are a few exceptions in my opinion, any of the large races like the National open, Knoxville Nats (I know it's not technically WoO but...) and Kings Royal I can understand not having support classes. However, I would rather see them run with at least one support class provided that the support class feature is after the WoO feature. It's not fair IMO to hold fans who came solely for the 410s captive for a support class feature if they don't want to stay. I get the business reasons for it, but it wears out the track for the main show. I believe that this is what Gator did and sparked the outcry from Brown et al. Another point is, I don't know what the sancitoning fee is to have the WoO come but I imagine it's a decently hefty price and the support classes can certainly help offset some of that cost. The additional pit passes and such sold are certainly gonna help cover that cost of the sanctioning fee for the track. There's been many a nights at races where sometimes the main show is not the best race of the evening because of a driver being absurdly dominant or the race being marred with too many cautions. In the case of Gator there were only I believe 28 or 29 cars for the WoO show which IMO if it was a one class show with 3 heats, a B main, a dash and a Feature I'd certainly not be happy paying $30 or more for a scant show unless the racing was absolutely phenomenal. So my final stance, I support "support" classes running with the WoO, but I don't support those classes running their feature events prior to the WoO.

Note: Please don't bicker guys, this is solely opinion based and there are certainly reasons for and against having support classes at the shows.




alum.427
April 16, 2017 at 08:06:03 PM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 1599
Reply

Mid week shows. Fans, Crews, Track workers and lastly all these individuals have to go to work the next day. The teams want to get out after the feature. Some drive hours either to the next stop or to there base garages. It is a reason that drivers have there motor homes and usually are not on the same travel times as the teams. 



dsc1600
April 16, 2017 at 08:11:07 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
Reply

If you don't have enough cars for 4 heats, and a b main, you need a support class. Too much down time without it.




HoldenCaulfield
April 16, 2017 at 08:42:55 PM
Joined: 03/22/2008
Posts: 2434
Reply

Yeah depends on how many cars but generally I don't need to see a support class with the WOO. Their shows are long enough with TT's and a dash plus the messing around they usually do. I always agree with running the headline division first. 


A

kooks
April 16, 2017 at 09:50:50 PM
Joined: 02/27/2008
Posts: 702
Reply

For your run of the mill WoO show I'm not opposed to having ONE support class but the support class should NOT have more than 20 cars.

Two or three heats and an A main for the support class is plenty.

 

Concering the number of cars in the pits, I prefer quality over quantity.   Some classes (B mods/sportsmans/hobby stocks/ hornets/bumble bees/wasps/micro sprints/etc) subtract from the value of the admission ticket.

 

 

 



ryanhunsinger
April 17, 2017 at 02:19:10 AM
Joined: 12/10/2016
Posts: 149
Reply

I'm pretty sure that someone told me one time that it was in their contract that you couldn't have another sprint car division as the support class. Maybe that has changed but I completely agree with that.

 

I think they almost need a support class at their shows just so they have some time between races without total downtime for the fans but one is enough - Mini stocks or street stocks seem to be the best fit as a support class at the WoO races I've been to. I actually like mini stocks the best because then it makes the WoO cars look crazy crazy fast even if the track has slicked off and slowed down 2 seconds from time trials.




johngr24
April 17, 2017 at 02:23:57 AM
Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 291
Reply

I totally disagree on the majority of shows. 1 support class is needed. In case of weather obviously then the promoter should then do what they have to do to get the Outlaws show done, but lets be honest, thats a rare occurance. I also dont agree I'm trying to leave as soon as possible. As long as there isnt a bunch of down time where cars SHOULD be on a track and arent, I dont mind being at the track. Obviously a mid week show my patience is probally a lot less. As long as cars are on track and there isnt a bunch of screwing around goin on, I'm happy to be there personally. Have the next race ready before the checkered is all I ask. But to assume I feel the need to be gone bye 9 or 10 is completely false as well.



Dryslick Willie
April 17, 2017 at 05:06:14 AM
Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 2235
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: HoldenCaulfield on April 16 2017 at 08:42:55 PM

Yeah depends on how many cars but generally I don't need to see a support class with the WOO. Their shows are long enough with TT's and a dash plus the messing around they usually do. I always agree with running the headline division first. 



I agree that it should depend on how many cars.   At Devils Bowl they only had 26 cars on Saturday night and one of those cars lost an engine in hot laps and was done for the night.    They need a support class in a class like this and Saturday night they had one.   I would rather it had been 305 sprints than modifieds, but it worked out fine.   I also would love to see them run the headline division first.   



percynz
MyWebsite
April 17, 2017 at 05:31:20 AM
Joined: 06/19/2015
Posts: 40
Reply

Largely depends on the Outlaw car count. I wouldn't expect to see any support class when the Outlaws race in PA. However when the Outlaws visit a non-Sprintcar stronghold then yes a support class can add something to the show.

I'd also like to see the WoO use their leverage by time limiting support class races and dictating the maximum number of competitors in the support class. A support class by definition is there to support the main show, not to hinder or delay the running of the show. Also, the WoO should be dictating the format utilised by the support class, number of laps in races etc. It is a priviledge for the support class to race in front of an audience generated by the WoO and the running of the show should reflect that. 




maradamx3
April 17, 2017 at 05:38:51 AM
Joined: 03/22/2009
Posts: 123
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: GTigers55 on April 16 2017 at 07:36:14 PM

Recently this has become a hotly contested topic on twitter in the dirt world and was wondering what y'all's OPINION is on this. Basically Brian Brown said on twitter that he doesn't think the WoO should have a support class at any of the races in response to the race at Gator Motoplex having the 305s run their feature prior to the WoO feature. Brad Doty later agreed saying that it helps them progress the show more smoothly and that's why he won't have supports for the Brad Doty Classic.

Personally, I like having support classes whether or not you're the greatest show on dirt. I personally would rather see more than one class race every time I go to a track even if it is for the WoO. There are a few exceptions in my opinion, any of the large races like the National open, Knoxville Nats (I know it's not technically WoO but...) and Kings Royal I can understand not having support classes. However, I would rather see them run with at least one support class provided that the support class feature is after the WoO feature. It's not fair IMO to hold fans who came solely for the 410s captive for a support class feature if they don't want to stay. I get the business reasons for it, but it wears out the track for the main show. I believe that this is what Gator did and sparked the outcry from Brown et al. Another point is, I don't know what the sancitoning fee is to have the WoO come but I imagine it's a decently hefty price and the support classes can certainly help offset some of that cost. The additional pit passes and such sold are certainly gonna help cover that cost of the sanctioning fee for the track. There's been many a nights at races where sometimes the main show is not the best race of the evening because of a driver being absurdly dominant or the race being marred with too many cautions. In the case of Gator there were only I believe 28 or 29 cars for the WoO show which IMO if it was a one class show with 3 heats, a B main, a dash and a Feature I'd certainly not be happy paying $30 or more for a scant show unless the racing was absolutely phenomenal. So my final stance, I support "support" classes running with the WoO, but I don't support those classes running their feature events prior to the WoO.

Note: Please don't bicker guys, this is solely opinion based and there are certainly reasons for and against having support classes at the shows.



"I believe that this is what Gator did and sparked the outcry from Brown et al. Another point is, I don't know what the sancitoning fee is to have the WoO come but I imagine it's a decently hefty price and the support classes can certainly help offset some of that cost. The additional pit passes and such sold are certainly gonna help cover that cost of the sanctioning fee for the track."

Brown didn't race at Gator so why his outcry?

The smaller tracks need as much opportunity as possible to cover expenses.  The mentioned sanction fee, along with purse and overhead have to get taken care of or the Outlaws won't be back, which is what has happened the last few years.  There have been too many one and done shows with the Outlaws.  The Gator race was advertised more than any race in south Texas, ever, so the track did what it needed to try to bring people to the event.  If the track needs another hour or so to take in more revenue, so be it.  The teams are used to being up late and in the case of Gator, the next day was a holiday.  The show finished at a respectable time and without the support class, would not have been worth the admission price.



alum.427
April 17, 2017 at 06:05:19 AM
Joined: 03/16/2017
Posts: 1599
Reply

IF THE TRACK NEEDS ANOTHER HOUR, SO BE IT

#1. I won't be back

#2. Yea that's it

You have dead time like that and these forum boards would be blowing up .  WoO  at Screven this year, SLM race, they never got on track for there first heat until 10 PM



shernernum
April 17, 2017 at 07:45:25 AM
Joined: 08/28/2014
Posts: 397
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: alum.427 on April 17 2017 at 06:05:19 AM

IF THE TRACK NEEDS ANOTHER HOUR, SO BE IT

#1. I won't be back

#2. Yea that's it

You have dead time like that and these forum boards would be blowing up .  WoO  at Screven this year, SLM race, they never got on track for there first heat until 10 PM



I don't mind 1 support class, but only 1.  Again, as was stated for the reasons above...to cover the down time, especially when there are less than 30 Sprints.  In places like PA where they get almost 50 (and sometimes more) and at the Nationals and such, I don't think you need the support as much because Time Trials take a long time, the C and B Mains (sometimes even D) are competitive and mean something, and there is other stuff of interest happening.

I liked in the Modified areas (north east) when the local mods were the "support" class, since they were the regular headliners you felt like you were at a really big show.  Of course, this was before the World Finals existed.




Super Chuck
April 17, 2017 at 08:20:17 AM
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 194
Reply

This is just Super Chuck's opinion, but support classes ARE NOT the problem.  The track running a slooooow program is the problem.  Slow program=too much downtime=late night=disappointed teams/fans.  Knoxville has this figured out.  They run three classes, eliminate downtime to keep the show moving, done by 10-10:30ish most nights.

Super Chuck



dsc1600
April 17, 2017 at 08:49:38 AM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Super Chuck on April 17 2017 at 08:20:17 AM

This is just Super Chuck's opinion, but support classes ARE NOT the problem.  The track running a slooooow program is the problem.  Slow program=too much downtime=late night=disappointed teams/fans.  Knoxville has this figured out.  They run three classes, eliminate downtime to keep the show moving, done by 10-10:30ish most nights.

Super Chuck



I would agree. 

To me the perfect thing for less than 35 cars is having:

1 support class with a time limit,

Have an invitation style format if you think you might get a ton of cars, 

I like the idea of the headliner being last so you can go into the pits after the races, but not if the race is over at midnight 



Murphy
April 17, 2017 at 08:57:37 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
Reply

     I drove a ways to a track I'd never been to once, to see a sprint show put on by an organiztion I'd never seen race before.  They had about 30 sprints and only one support class. The support class was made up of identical, carero bodies hobby stocks of some sort. The had 50  of them!!! If I recall, there were 5 heats, a C, a B and an A feature for the support class...... and all those dumb things did was spin and spin and spin. The sprint feature was good and didn't end too much after midnight.
    I marked that track and that organization off my my list. Been there. Done that. Not going there again.




Keyboard Jockey
April 17, 2017 at 08:58:05 AM
Joined: 04/16/2014
Posts: 430
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: maradamx3 on April 17 2017 at 05:38:51 AM

"I believe that this is what Gator did and sparked the outcry from Brown et al. Another point is, I don't know what the sancitoning fee is to have the WoO come but I imagine it's a decently hefty price and the support classes can certainly help offset some of that cost. The additional pit passes and such sold are certainly gonna help cover that cost of the sanctioning fee for the track."

Brown didn't race at Gator so why his outcry?

The smaller tracks need as much opportunity as possible to cover expenses.  The mentioned sanction fee, along with purse and overhead have to get taken care of or the Outlaws won't be back, which is what has happened the last few years.  There have been too many one and done shows with the Outlaws.  The Gator race was advertised more than any race in south Texas, ever, so the track did what it needed to try to bring people to the event.  If the track needs another hour or so to take in more revenue, so be it.  The teams are used to being up late and in the case of Gator, the next day was a holiday.  The show finished at a respectable time and without the support class, would not have been worth the admission price.



I agree with most of what you said, but here is where teams get upset. 

"The teams are used to being up late and in the case of Gator, the next day was a holiday." 

Yes they are used to being up late, but the next day was not a holiday, they had a 200 mile drive to devils bowl to race the next day and they were still in the pits at 1AM. 

No sleep and driving from one track to the next is part of the allure of the outlaws but it does create wear and tear on a guy. 

BB did it two weeks before with the guys driving from Hanford to Perris through LA. That trip is no fun!

 

As far as support classes, I see it both ways, maybe do an invite only or pre-register event. Cap the car count to one or two full fields, 20-24 mods, and 20-24 track class cars, 3 heats each, and a feature. 8 lap heats and 15 lap feature if you dont want to compete with those guidelines give your invite to the next guy or dont pre register. If you have enough WoO cars for a C-main, I would say one support class or none. Enough cars only for a B-main one or two is ok. If there are 24 WoO cars or less, two is fine. 

JMO

 



larryitis
April 17, 2017 at 09:27:00 AM
Joined: 12/21/2010
Posts: 840
Reply

I'm cool with 1 support class but I prefer they be something somewhat exciting, like midgets or non wing sprints or 360's. Typically her in Wisconsin dwarf/legends or mini sprints support the WoO, which I can understand. They get a decent amount of cars (not too many either!) and they don't use up the track a lot. 


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rolldog
MyWebsite
April 17, 2017 at 09:28:00 AM
Joined: 08/01/2013
Posts: 431
Reply

I agree with having one support class, by invitation and capping it at 24 cars.  3 heats, 1 feature and a time limit.

If the Outlaws would spend less time wasting time, their shows would be done earlier.  Intermission is always way too long.  If they are concerned about speeding up the show, start using group time trials.

One downside to running the support class feature after the Outlaw feature is that the pits will be nearly empty after the support feature is over.  It might be different where they have 2 day shows, but in Nebraska, they are all 1 day shows, usually with 20-24 cars, including 3-4 360's to fill the field and the Outlaws can't wait to get on the road.




GTigers55
April 17, 2017 at 09:48:28 AM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 420
Reply

I've gotta say I'm proud of everyone for having logical and reasonable responses! Thank you for that! Ya'll have made some good points about getting into the pits afterwards and such. I haven't been to a WoO race yet personally but have tickets to the Kings Royal this year so very excited for that! As to whomever asked why Brown was upset since he wasn't there I really don't know but I guess he may have been watching or following along online and was recalling a similar past situation and the late nights it may have caused him. I'm just reporting on what happened there, you can check Blackjack's twitter to confirm that.

I certainly see absolutely no issue with running a support class like most've you have proposed (1 class, ~24 cars) as to me it certainly adds to the show. I would prefer 2 personally but I would be happy with one. As a lot of you mentioned about weekday shows, I fully agree that the supports may drag it out but if the track runs the program efficiently with one support class and it doesn't become a caution fest they should be done in a reasonable amount of time. Tracks where they'll easily have a very good car count where they'll likely have a C main I can certainly understand no support class.

Thanks again everyone for having a nice discusssion and not arguing, I knew posting this was just begging for an argument so I'm glad everyone has been reasonable!



miledirtfan
April 17, 2017 at 10:34:27 AM
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 739
Reply

One of the things that's killing the "bigger" shows in the St. Louis area is tracks having too many support classes.  One and at the most two support classes is plenty.  I know one track in particular, they will have a really nice sprint or midget show paying good money and pulling good cars, but they are notorious for running a total of 5,6 classes and having the featured class run last





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