Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Does anyone know if Knoxville has ever or would consider racing weekly through September?

I've been there in June and had to have a jacket, have been to the Nationals and had to have a jacket, and have been to the Late Model Nationals and had to have a coat, but their weekly race season always seems to be a bit on the short side to me.

Keep in mind I'm not complaining about Knoxville at all.  It's my favorite place on earth and I've even thought of relocating there or some nearby town where I can go every week instead of once or twice a year.  Having been to the Late Model Nationals a few times now, sometimes it is cold and sometimes it isn't bad at all.  Just wondering if Knoxville has ever considered lengthening the season.

Once school and college starts and also their sports programs it would be difficult to maintain the crowd.Iowa and Iowa State have a lot of loyal fans[when they are winning]

This has been brought up before, and myself would love a longer season but as Shortie said, college sports around here is huge. 

We don't have the pro teams like out many other places so college football is king here. 

Personally I'd be up for having a race after the week of the nationals, and then adding another race the first week of college football as the Hawkeyes and Cyclones are normally playing a weak non conference game anyways. 

Keep It Real

Knoxville Raceway makes enough on the 410 Nationals to cover their losses on the regular season, the limited nationals, and anything else that they now run.  They are wise to not extend the regular season to have additional losses to cut into their margin for the year.  Like the others have said crowds would be light in September.

I think it is a bunch of  bunk that you and others say Knoxville lose money every week but 410 nationals.  I was there for every race this year but Cappy Cla.  I thought they did real well most every week.  The 360 Nationals had to have made money with good crowds.  You guys said a board member  told me this 10 years ago, really?  

I heard it from my sisters cousins grandpappy....sheesh.... I for one don't believe Knoxville "loses" money every week and then makes it all up during one spectacular extravaganza that we all so dearly love.  I would venture a highly educated guess and years of common sense accounting background that Knoxville's weekly show is more likely to be a mixture of making a little money most weeks, breaking even some weeks and may actually lose money on some off weeks.  I do agree the Nationals is the Knoxville Fair Boards equivalent to a "cash cow".  So no, they don't need to make an enormous amount of money each week.  But to say they lose $ every week is absurd.  If that's the case why not just run the Nationals only and shitcan the weekly show and at the end of the racing season the Fair Board is a lot more $ ahead.  Hmmm?

As for the reason they don't run past the last week of August - if you've ever lived in a rural area, you'd understand how important football season is.  Knoxville knows not to compete against that.  But wait, since some believe Knoxville loses $ every week, I guess it wouldn't matter how many weeks into football season they go, because the Nationals would just cover all those losses too.  

Uggghh....now my head hurts....

Back in the day one of the biggest reasons for the Nationals being the end of the season was all the IMCA fair races.

Sedalia Mo, St. Paul MN, Lincoln Ne, Des Moines Ia State fairs all ran IMCA Sprint Cars and super modified races. Some fairs ran shows twice a week, some had miles. Then you had the Cheaters Day Race, Spencer IA. Seems there was a big race at West Memphis that time of year.

FACT: Knoxville weekly purse is around $35,000 on an average NON NSL night.

Average weekly car count of 70 cars would equate to around $5,000 at the back gate in pit passes.

Take the ramaining $30,000 of the purse and divide it by $15 for adult ticket price. Knoxville would need around 2,000 paying adults to cover the rest of the purse.

Between insurance, utilities, misc expenses, you can probably add at least another $5,000 plus in costs per night.

I would say Knoxville would need to get on average of 2000 paying adults and 500 paying teens in order to break even on a weekly night. I am not sure what they get for a weekly show but just throwing those numbers out there.

I agree 100% with this assessment.

I agree.Just to put the football thing in perspective Iowa seats over 70K people,Iowa State 60K, Knoxville around 24K.Knoxville is only full during the Nationals and as much as I myself prefer racing many of the football games are near sell outs.Look at the number of empty seats at the Truck series,Infinity,and depending which ones Sprint cup series.One thing that hurts is it just costs to much for many racers to race much more.The Outlaws,All Stars are different as they major backers and go to different venues every week..People will go to football game with parkas and Carharts but if the weather is below 60 deg or threat of rain they stay home from the races.Newton probably would have closed if Nascar had not stepped in as it was struggling.I thought it odd Knoville and Newton didnt work together better. But as we have seen with Badlands and NSL some people dont play well together.The Boone IMCA Nationals and Chili Bowl both are promoted at times of the year when they get large car counts.We are fortunate with Knoxville tradition ,plus new management,  a top safety crew plus Dunkins they are one of the stronger weekly race tracks as many are struggling.

You also have to figure in the consessions that are taken in if that portion is not leased out.  Even if it is, they were paid some pretty good money for the lease.  So if they get 2000 and each person spends $10 for consessions that's $20,000 minus COG which should be at the most 40%..... net income for consession is around $12,000.  Give or take depending on COG.

Trust me I know how important football season is.  I'm from Oklahoma.  I hadn't considered it from that perspective, though.  When we had the State Fair Speedway here they ran the weekly show a little longer, but it was on Friday nights.  Crowds would even drop when high school football started.  So I get it.  It's a shame, though.  The season seems to go really fast.

Thanks all for the responses!

Has anyone else heard they are dropping 360s from the program next year? 

$5,000 in pit passes? How do you figure?

And I got news for ya . If they weren't breaking even they wouldn't exist. Some of you people on this site are nuts.

I have attended Knoxville almost every week since the mid 80's. I struggle with the story that they lose money every week. I am sure they do some weeks. They probably don't make a lot on most but not lose. The older I get the more I realize that there are a lot of expenses that most don't recognize. I was told that it cost $7k in insurance every race night. I don't know how accurate that is but I am sure it is higher than most would be willing to admit. 

The reasoning for the short season is exactly what has been written. School and football. High school kids become busier and college kids are gone. That is the bulk of the concession stand workers right there. I agree it sucks but it is what it is. Just glad we have it for the months we do. 

Most every opinion I've read sounds good to me.  The reality is, Knoxville absolutely ends their season on the exact weekend they should and there are a half dozen great reasons why they should end when they do and absoluty no good reasons to keep going.

1) By the 4th Saturday in August (championshp night) Knoxville will have run up to 20 race weekends with only 1 week off.  That's a lot.  How many fans, even die hards who live in Knoxville go EVERY SINGLE WEEK.  No missed weekends for family vacations or trips, wedding, family reunion?  Drivers and teams give up their entire summers for this and they're exhausted.

2) Equipment and budgets are destroyed or depleted.  Knoxville is probably the hardest track in the country on equipment and drivers other than maybe Eldora, but Eldora doesn't have a weekly series.  Just look at last week's car count.  Maybe lowest of season.  

3) Fans are ready to move on.  Nationals is the peak excitement.  Everything after that is anit-climactic.  Track champions are usually clinched.  Overall excitement is way down.  The movie is over, the hero has already saved the day.  Get up and leave the theatre folks, the rest is just credits.

4) School has started.  One more thing for parents and kids to deal with.  Homework and after school activities.

5) Football... Everyone is ready for football.  Let's be honest, Thursday night through Sunday night are football, football, football.

6) Other tracks need a chance for their big shows.  Let's be honest.  No one wants to run their big shows in midwest against Knoxville's weekely program.  They all have to wait for Knoxville to be done.  Badlands Gold Cup (weekend after Nationals), Jackson Nationals (first weekend in September), Jerry Richert Memorial (2nd weekend in September), Eagle runs their Nebraska cup and IMCS Sprint Nationals in September.  If Knoxville ran into September it would hurt these tracks.  

7) Farmers have about 30 days to prepare for harvest.  Getting their farms and equipment ready is a big deal.  How many drivers or their teams are tied to the Ag business in the midwest?

So whether Knoxville loses $5,000 on a weekly show, breaks even, or even if they made $10,000 (which i highly doubt), after the 7 figure cash haul they get for the Nationals and with all of the reasons above.  There is absolutely no, zero, nada good reasons to run into September. 

What Jamie said! THE END!

Nope and on their social media a few days ago (Saturday during race night maybe) they had (2) drivers (who are Knoxville regulars) announce their intention of moving up from 305 to 360 next year. Doubt they would've given this the time to mention if they had plans on not running it. 

+1  I don't believe for a minute that Knoxville is losing money on a weekly basis, and I won't until I see a report showing such loses (which should be available given it's a County Fairground). If they are in the black, it's not because the front and back gates aren't bringing in enough money. Do a loose calculation based on 2,000 fans (is it $12 admission?) and 50 teams, each with a driver and 2 crew members (that's a very safe estimate on car count and crew size). That's a $28,5000 coming in each week. Are they getting rich week to week, maybe not. But don't forget about sponsors and advertising dollars.

Hmmmm, must be some false info. Thanks, glad to see some guys stepping up!