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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Topic: Kinser vs. Schatz
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rolldog
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July 16, 2018 at 09:22:09 AM
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This thread isn't a "who is the GOAT discussion" but I'm curious as to what some of the other board members think.

Take 10 years of Kinser's and Schatz's careers.  Say 1983 to 1993 for Kinser and 2006 to 2016 for Schatz.  Both were in their prime during these years and won WoO titles plus the Nationals and many other big money races.  Which driver do you think was more dominant during their run?  You can modify the 10 year period if you want, I just threw those out arbitrarily without any deep analysis.

I didn't follow sprint car racing as closely during Steve's run (late models are all that raced near me at that time) but these days it seems like Donny has the field covered for the season title as well as the big money races.  Others are close but no other driver can bring it consistently like Donny does.  And I sometimes get the impression that if Donny were pushed, there might be another level they could take it to.  Was Steve this dominant during his prime time?

Was Donny more consistent in terms of finishes (fewer DNF's, wrecks)?



SprintFan16
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July 16, 2018 at 09:23:35 AM
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Too much has changed in the meta of sprint car racing to make any kind of comparison. 



Paintboss
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July 16, 2018 at 10:02:44 AM
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I don't know but I sure wish Steve Kinser was still around!



blazer00
July 16, 2018 at 11:20:54 AM
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This message was edited on July 16, 2018 at 11:23:18 AM by blazer00

My opinion is based on "what's missing".........Schatz has no where near the competion behind the wheel that Steve had. With today's cars being equal as many believe to be true today, then how come there isn't anybody really pushing Schatz?  Where are the numbers of Swindell, Wolfgang, Blaney, Mark Kinser, Jac and several others that Steve had to deal with?  Especially when it came to the big races. Pittman and Saldana and others of today's elder drivers had their numbers pretty well in place before Schatz took off, and as the "King" was winding down. Which leaves Gravel, Shane and Sweet, really, and a good crop of young drivers that now and then pick off a WoO feature. Gravel had a very good year last year......so now he needs to follow that up if he's to be considered real competition to Schatz.  Sweet is very consistant and that's fine. Consistancy can win titles, Meyers with 12 wins in 2010 and 9 wins in 2011, and Pitman with 8 wins in 2015. In 2010 and 2011 Schatz was way off with wins and in 2015 he had 23. Take a look at Kinser's career, and count the number of years other competitors, and who they were, had double figure win totals for a season against him. And in many years there were two or three. That's what Schatz doesn't have to deal with today. Yeh things change, no doubt, and it always boils down to opinion. And generation to generation will also influence opinions. But after all is said and done, the real numbers can still paint a pretty acurate picture.



AJ_81
July 16, 2018 at 12:31:01 PM
Joined: 01/14/2014
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I come from an engineering background so I'd love to see the data on this.  Come up with a formula factoring in number of events participated in with average finish, and then compare the two.  I can't imagine the work it would take to dig that up, or if we even know how many events they started, but that'd be an interesting stat for sure.  



rolldog
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July 16, 2018 at 03:28:19 PM
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Posted By: blazer00 on July 16 2018 at 11:20:54 AM

My opinion is based on "what's missing".........Schatz has no where near the competion behind the wheel that Steve had. With today's cars being equal as many believe to be true today, then how come there isn't anybody really pushing Schatz?  Where are the numbers of Swindell, Wolfgang, Blaney, Mark Kinser, Jac and several others that Steve had to deal with?  Especially when it came to the big races. Pittman and Saldana and others of today's elder drivers had their numbers pretty well in place before Schatz took off, and as the "King" was winding down. Which leaves Gravel, Shane and Sweet, really, and a good crop of young drivers that now and then pick off a WoO feature. Gravel had a very good year last year......so now he needs to follow that up if he's to be considered real competition to Schatz.  Sweet is very consistant and that's fine. Consistancy can win titles, Meyers with 12 wins in 2010 and 9 wins in 2011, and Pitman with 8 wins in 2015. In 2010 and 2011 Schatz was way off with wins and in 2015 he had 23. Take a look at Kinser's career, and count the number of years other competitors, and who they were, had double figure win totals for a season against him. And in many years there were two or three. That's what Schatz doesn't have to deal with today. Yeh things change, no doubt, and it always boils down to opinion. And generation to generation will also influence opinions. But after all is said and done, the real numbers can still paint a pretty acurate picture.



I would agree with your point about competition.  There are several drivers that could be competitive with Schatz but nobody is consistently challenging him.  Gravel and Sweet are closest but there is definitely a level of separation there.

I'm a Kinser fan, so I'll argue all day that he is the GOAT but as Donny has progressed, I've come to respect him more for what he is doing.

 



alum.427
July 16, 2018 at 03:34:15 PM
Joined: 03/16/2017
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When steve was in his prime and donnie was on tour he couldn't race with kinser. A couple years in, Steve was getting older and donnie 



HoldenCaulfield
July 16, 2018 at 03:45:02 PM
Joined: 03/22/2008
Posts: 2434
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Posted By: blazer00 on July 16 2018 at 11:20:54 AM

My opinion is based on "what's missing".........Schatz has no where near the competion behind the wheel that Steve had. With today's cars being equal as many believe to be true today, then how come there isn't anybody really pushing Schatz?  Where are the numbers of Swindell, Wolfgang, Blaney, Mark Kinser, Jac and several others that Steve had to deal with?  Especially when it came to the big races. Pittman and Saldana and others of today's elder drivers had their numbers pretty well in place before Schatz took off, and as the "King" was winding down. Which leaves Gravel, Shane and Sweet, really, and a good crop of young drivers that now and then pick off a WoO feature. Gravel had a very good year last year......so now he needs to follow that up if he's to be considered real competition to Schatz.  Sweet is very consistant and that's fine. Consistancy can win titles, Meyers with 12 wins in 2010 and 9 wins in 2011, and Pitman with 8 wins in 2015. In 2010 and 2011 Schatz was way off with wins and in 2015 he had 23. Take a look at Kinser's career, and count the number of years other competitors, and who they were, had double figure win totals for a season against him. And in many years there were two or three. That's what Schatz doesn't have to deal with today. Yeh things change, no doubt, and it always boils down to opinion. And generation to generation will also influence opinions. But after all is said and done, the real numbers can still paint a pretty acurate picture.



I completely disagree with this statement. First off, like you said the cars are more equal nowadays. In Steve's prime, there were a handful of cars (and crewchiefs) that were much better than what most had. Secondly there is WAY `more competition within the WOO and many more teams running locally who are cpable of beating the WOO. As for the original question from the OP, yes there were many years that Steve was as dominant and even more dominant than Schatz but he also had a lot less cars in the field actually capable of winning IMO.


A

blazer00
July 16, 2018 at 03:51:31 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: AJ_81 on July 16 2018 at 12:31:01 PM

I come from an engineering background so I'd love to see the data on this.  Come up with a formula factoring in number of events participated in with average finish, and then compare the two.  I can't imagine the work it would take to dig that up, or if we even know how many events they started, but that'd be an interesting stat for sure.  



I got these numbers from the WoO website. At the beginning of the season Donny had 261 WoO feature wins in 21 seasons (1997-2107). Kinser had 433 WoO feature wins at the end of his 21st season (1978-2008). There were only 41 WoO events the inaugural year of 1978, and Kinser missed 1989 racing with the USA and part of 2006 with NASCAR. I don't think avearge finish matters much.



revjimk
July 16, 2018 at 03:54:13 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
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Posted By: rolldog on July 16 2018 at 09:22:09 AM

This thread isn't a "who is the GOAT discussion" but I'm curious as to what some of the other board members think.

Take 10 years of Kinser's and Schatz's careers.  Say 1983 to 1993 for Kinser and 2006 to 2016 for Schatz.  Both were in their prime during these years and won WoO titles plus the Nationals and many other big money races.  Which driver do you think was more dominant during their run?  You can modify the 10 year period if you want, I just threw those out arbitrarily without any deep analysis.

I didn't follow sprint car racing as closely during Steve's run (late models are all that raced near me at that time) but these days it seems like Donny has the field covered for the season title as well as the big money races.  Others are close but no other driver can bring it consistently like Donny does.  And I sometimes get the impression that if Donny were pushed, there might be another level they could take it to.  Was Steve this dominant during his prime time?

Was Donny more consistent in terms of finishes (fewer DNF's, wrecks)?



"This thread isn't a "who is the GOAT discussion" ???? Good try, but SURE it is!

Who else would be in the running for GOAT?

 



blazer00
July 16, 2018 at 04:06:22 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
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Posted By: HoldenCaulfield on July 16 2018 at 03:45:02 PM

I completely disagree with this statement. First off, like you said the cars are more equal nowadays. In Steve's prime, there were a handful of cars (and crewchiefs) that were much better than what most had. Secondly there is WAY `more competition within the WOO and many more teams running locally who are cpable of beating the WOO. As for the original question from the OP, yes there were many years that Steve was as dominant and even more dominant than Schatz but he also had a lot less cars in the field actually capable of winning IMO.



Today also has a handfull of cars that are betterthan what most have. Are you kidding? And if you go back through the history of the WoO you'll find that the average number of winners per season is relatively close. It's not at all lopsided. I think in Kinsers years the avearge was around 10-11 and in Schatz's years the avearage around 11-12. Give or take, but that's pretty darn close. There were plenty of winners back in the day, how do you suppose so many racked up big numbers? And you help make my point. If Kinser had so many competitors in lesser equipment, how did so many drivers put up the numbers they did? Better drivers, lesser cars? Likewise in Schatz's case, if todays equally competitive cars had equally skilled drivers, Schatz wouldn't be so dominant. Better cars, lesser drivers? I'm not saying that, just asking. Like I say, the numbers do the talking. Kinser kicked many of the same butts Schatz is kicking today.



SprintFan16
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July 16, 2018 at 06:14:35 PM
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I'll never understand the "Steve had better competition so he is better" argument. Donny should lose more so he can get some "better competiton". 



dsc1600
July 16, 2018 at 06:26:55 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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A couple of points. Kinser has 23 crown jewel wins, Schatz has 20. Crown Jewels defined as Knoxville, Kings Royal and Natty Open. I don’t think there’s a ton of debate on where Schatz ranks now, to me he’s a clear #2 From the WoO era in terms of accomplishments. Not to say he’s better than Sammy or Wolfgang, but he’s accomplished way more.

As far as Steve goes, people forget when he struggled (by his standards) after  breaking away from Karl and going to Nascar. Had he stayed, the Stats that Mark compiled, 3 Knoxville’s, 100+ woo wins and a few championships would have most likely gone to Steve and There would be no debate as to who was better. 



blazer00
July 16, 2018 at 07:36:51 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
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Posted By: SprintFan16 on July 16 2018 at 06:14:35 PM

I'll never understand the "Steve had better competition so he is better" argument. Donny should lose more so he can get some "better competiton". 



Funny way to twist it. No, Donny's competition should win more and prove how good Donny is.   All of Donny's competition are evidently at a similar level to one another. There sure aren't two or three knocking down double digit numbers every year. And certainly not much competition when it comes to the biggest races. Actually, my top ten all time (winged era) reads like this. My opinion only, of course. I'm taking into account not only the number of wins, but the number of the big wins. Knoxville Nationals, Kings Royal and Williams Grove National Open.

1 Kinser   2 Schatz   3 Wolfgang  4 Swindell   5 M Kinser   6 Lasoski   7 Saldana   8 Dv Blaney   9 Jac  10 Stevie Smith Jr  

Those ten I believe prooved themselves over and over against the best in the land.



SprintFan16
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July 16, 2018 at 08:05:12 PM
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This message was edited on July 16, 2018 at 08:07:45 PM by SprintFan16
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Posted By: blazer00 on July 16 2018 at 07:36:51 PM

Funny way to twist it. No, Donny's competition should win more and prove how good Donny is.   All of Donny's competition are evidently at a similar level to one another. There sure aren't two or three knocking down double digit numbers every year. And certainly not much competition when it comes to the biggest races. Actually, my top ten all time (winged era) reads like this. My opinion only, of course. I'm taking into account not only the number of wins, but the number of the big wins. Knoxville Nationals, Kings Royal and Williams Grove National Open.

1 Kinser   2 Schatz   3 Wolfgang  4 Swindell   5 M Kinser   6 Lasoski   7 Saldana   8 Dv Blaney   9 Jac  10 Stevie Smith Jr  

Those ten I believe prooved themselves over and over against the best in the land.



The current crop can't get to double digits because Donny wins so much. And they can't win the biggest races because again, Donny wins the vast majority of them. How does Donny losing prove how good Donny is? That seems contradictory. What am I missing? 



EasyE
July 16, 2018 at 08:39:27 PM
Joined: 10/29/2017
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Don't forget to factor in that it's not just Donnie it's the tsr 15 team. It was Steve and Karl kinser, and so on and so forth.Steve wasn't  as dominant when Karl went with mark.Look how good mark kinser was when he was with Karl and how he ran when he wasn't. Don't think Donnie would just jump in any car out there with him and have the same results as he does with his team. People don't realize how much the crew chief and team factors in and how much it helps the results.



bighess11
July 16, 2018 at 10:50:59 PM
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Posted By: blazer00 on July 16 2018 at 03:51:31 PM

I got these numbers from the WoO website. At the beginning of the season Donny had 261 WoO feature wins in 21 seasons (1997-2107). Kinser had 433 WoO feature wins at the end of his 21st season (1978-2008). There were only 41 WoO events the inaugural year of 1978, and Kinser missed 1989 racing with the USA and part of 2006 with NASCAR. I don't think avearge finish matters much.



21 years for Steve would be through 98 Not 2008. So 21 years in Donny has 5 nationals opens, 5 kings royals, & 10 Knoxville nationals with 9 WoO titles. . Steve had 3 National opens, 11 Knoxville nationals and 4 kings royals with 15 WoO titles. I’m not looking to change your mind because you’re obviously pro kinser. 20 years ago if you would have told me that anyone would touch Kinsers numbers I would have called BS. And although Donny doesn’t have all the numbers at this point he’s knocking on the door and he doesn’t look to be slowing down anytime soon. I do know it would be one heck of a battle it we could put 40 year old Steve up against 40 year old Donny. At this point it’s just going to be fun to watch how long Donny can or will stay at this level to see if he can reel some of Steve’s records in. 


-

blazer00
July 16, 2018 at 11:27:12 PM
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Posted By: SprintFan16 on July 16 2018 at 08:05:12 PM

The current crop can't get to double digits because Donny wins so much. And they can't win the biggest races because again, Donny wins the vast majority of them. How does Donny losing prove how good Donny is? That seems contradictory. What am I missing? 



You're missing the fact that Donny isn't facing consistant winners every night. When Kinser was winning 25-30 and more shows every year he had competition getting double figure wins each year. Sometimes two and three drivers were. Kinser had competition that could win and put up some good numbers. To say Donny's competition can't win because Donny wins too much doesn't make sense, when Kinser's win pace was far stronger than Donny's. My way of thinking is that it looks so effortless for Donny that the competition must not be that much of a threat to him. Someone should be really pushing him every night. I don't think you'll find in the history of auto racing, a time when even the greatest of each era wasn't challenged by a driver or drivers that could kick snot out of everybody else. Aside from Donny, who else is really kicking ass today?



blazer00
July 16, 2018 at 11:42:04 PM
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Posted By: bighess11 on July 16 2018 at 10:50:59 PM

21 years for Steve would be through 98 Not 2008. So 21 years in Donny has 5 nationals opens, 5 kings royals, & 10 Knoxville nationals with 9 WoO titles. . Steve had 3 National opens, 11 Knoxville nationals and 4 kings royals with 15 WoO titles. I’m not looking to change your mind because you’re obviously pro kinser. 20 years ago if you would have told me that anyone would touch Kinsers numbers I would have called BS. And although Donny doesn’t have all the numbers at this point he’s knocking on the door and he doesn’t look to be slowing down anytime soon. I do know it would be one heck of a battle it we could put 40 year old Steve up against 40 year old Donny. At this point it’s just going to be fun to watch how long Donny can or will stay at this level to see if he can reel some of Steve’s records in. 



Good catch! Correct on the 1998.......but those were the right numbers totaled. Steve's fist 21 years. Take a look on the WoO website. that's where I got the count. I just typo'd wrong year. My bad. As for the numbers you show......correct also, that's why I have Kinser and Schatz #1 & #2 on my list. The way it looks right now, Schatz may very well end up with more of the Big 3 event wins than Kinser. I don't see anybody around that can stop that. The two that I think will remain in Steve's grasp are the total number of wins and the total number of WoO titles. 



SprintFan16
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July 16, 2018 at 11:50:05 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
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"To say that Donny's competition can't win because Donny wins too much doesn't make sense"

I just don't know what to say. There are a fixed number of features, and only one car can win a race. If Donny wins many, that leaves fewer for the others to win.

I'm not even saying Schatz is the GOAT but I do think that he races against tougher overall competition than Steve did. Steve also drove in an era that was more conducive to being able to win due to skill and car - it it's tougher to drive, there's more skill involved and Steve was able to maximize his skill advantage. 

Schatz won't catch Kinser's overall win totals, that's for sure. He was RoY in 1997 so he has 20 1/2 seasons under his belt and has 276 wins, so we'll call that an average of 13.5 a year. He'd need another 30 years at that pace to catch him, and I don't think we'll see Donny strapping in when he's 70. He may surpass him in WoO titles though.



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