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Topic: Winning a qualifying night and not locking into Saturday's A? Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 5 of 6   of  107 replies
RHC
August 12, 2018 at 01:27:59 PM
Joined: 12/07/2004
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Posted By: Speedbump on August 12 2018 at 11:55:40 AM

I think I might lock in fewer and transfer more thru each alphabet race on Saturday.   Maybe lock in 12 and transfer 12 up from the last race.    That would add a race or two on Saturday and help encourage a run through the alphabet



Start 30 cars in the A Main

$10,000 to start instead of $9500



Speedbump
August 12, 2018 at 01:34:35 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1461
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I think 30 cars in A main might be too crowded. (Late Models would work,  sprints not)  Not seeing where that would add anything to the show,  maybe even take away a little.   Not gonna worry about $500 here or there either....it is still the single biggest check most of those drivers will cash this year.   I'd rather see the extra money go into a F and G main event, letting those who play alphabet soup make a little extra for running extra laps 



RHC
August 12, 2018 at 02:52:36 PM
Joined: 12/07/2004
Posts: 443
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Posted By: Speedbump on August 12 2018 at 01:34:35 PM

I think 30 cars in A main might be too crowded. (Late Models would work,  sprints not)  Not seeing where that would add anything to the show,  maybe even take away a little.   Not gonna worry about $500 here or there either....it is still the single biggest check most of those drivers will cash this year.   I'd rather see the extra money go into a F and G main event, letting those who play alphabet soup make a little extra for running extra laps 



I'd like the see extra money go to the D, C, & B Main drivers as well

Make it $1000 to start the D Main    $1500 to start the C Main    $2000 to start the B Main

 




blazer00
August 12, 2018 at 03:15:54 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: RHC on August 12 2018 at 01:27:59 PM

Start 30 cars in the A Main

$10,000 to start instead of $9500



If you look at the entire picture regarding Saturday night's purse, the top four in the B Main each earn $1000.00 in addition to a transfer and the $9500.00 to start, that guarantees them $10,500.00 to start the A Main.



revjimk
August 12, 2018 at 04:05:00 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7595
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Posted By: zippy2212 on August 12 2018 at 11:20:25 AM

The only change I would make is start the B-main cars 17-20 and the Hard Knox cars 21-24.  It's a small thing but the b-main cars earned their spot on thier qualifying nights.  The Hard Knox guys get 2 shots to make the show.  Other than that I think the format is perfect.  



Good point....



railfan33
August 12, 2018 at 06:45:54 PM
Joined: 07/24/2010
Posts: 637
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Posted By: revjimk on August 12 2018 at 04:05:00 PM

Good point....



Agree, B main qualifiers should fill spots 17 thru 20. Only change I would suggest to current format.




Johnny Gibson
August 12, 2018 at 07:14:52 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 455
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They eliminated the choice to give up a top ten B-main starting spot to re-qualify this year.  17th-26th in points HAD to run the Saturday B-main--did NOT have an option to come back Friday.  (I was told they elimineated the option because nobody had used it since Lasoski the first year.)



blazer00
August 12, 2018 at 09:09:33 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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This message was edited on August 12, 2018 at 09:10:45 PM by blazer00

Good to know. Then I agree, the B Main qualifiers from Saturday night racing for the 17th-20th spots does make more sense. Non qulaifiers From Hard Knox filling last four spots would be appropriate.



Sonicman1
August 13, 2018 at 10:06:28 AM
Joined: 05/30/2016
Posts: 200
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There is only 1 thing wrong with the current format IMO.  The inversion.  8 is WAAAAAY too tough today with the difference being so thin between front row and quick time sitting in outside of row 4.  However, the points always seem to work out just fine because I remember high fiving people in our section after Donny missed the A.  Sure, we knew he would win the B and move up during the A.  What we forgot was how many points he would accumulate during the night and how when dust settled he was in row 2 for Saturday.  The point system works.  Makes all the facets of the night important.  

The 1 thing I would consider changing would be the timing.  I think I am starting to be won over by the split group, or 2 groups (A & B) for timing.  That way your timing isnt somewhat luck of the draw.  I mean the track changes over the course of 45 cars taking 2 laps.  There is typically faster times and better chance of timing well by coming out early.  




MoOpenwheel
August 13, 2018 at 10:36:44 AM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 637
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I agree with the B main transfers starting in front of the Friday night qualifiers.  Especially since learning they didn't have the option to try Friday even if they wanted to.  They earned it the old fashioned way and should be given a better spot than the 2nd chance cars.  Although with the 50 laps now it likely wouldn't make much difference in the end results.

The Friday show is cool now but the one thing it does is pretty much eliminate an alphabet run on Sat.  And even if one of the top cars ends up down the lineup on Sat all the cars are so fast now that it's pretty much impossible to come from very far back.  I think either Steve or Lasoski might have been the last one to come from even the C.  Someone help me with that!    

The biggest thing I would change is to get rid of the provisional for the international race.  That's too cheap a way to make the biggest race of the year IMO.  Why should a few cars get an easier way into the big show just because of where they're from or what other races they've ran?  I've not liked that since they started it.    



Sonicman1
August 13, 2018 at 10:50:39 AM
Joined: 05/30/2016
Posts: 200
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Nobody, and I mean nobody is winning D, C, and B anymore.  Never gonna happen.  Maybe 2 letters, but never 3.  Its just old fodder to talk about and wonder what if.  

For my money, the Friday change has been awesome.  The Speed Sport Challenge is a little dull but its ok.  I would probably have that race before the A main.  The A main that night is so much better considering 4 guys are about to lock in.  That race was awesome to watch.  Sheldon was all over the place and as a Matt Juhl fan, it was so great to see a local guy from my area make the show and increase on the payout scale. 

I dont think enough people understand, myself included, how the SSC works or how you get in....even after it is explained on the website.  Its not like you ever see points for it or have any cluse who is in it or how they will start until Friday night around 9pm.  Maybe its just me. IDK



kevintoribert
MyWebsite
August 13, 2018 at 08:19:24 PM
Joined: 12/27/2005
Posts: 16
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I calculated some stats regarding qualifying order - to see if there was any impact on qualifying order and points earned on Wednesday/Thursday.

 

For Wed/Thr this year:

Qualifying Order 1st - 10th = 167.5 qualifying points.

Qualifying Order 11th - 20th = 158.0 qualifying points.

Qualifying Order 21st - 30th = 142.1 qualifying points.

Qualifying Order 31st - 40th = 148.3 qualifying points.

Qualifying Order 41st - 51st = 147.0 qualifying points.

So there does seem to be a modest benefit by getting to qualify 1st - 20th.

 

Because of the invert structure of the program, poor qualifying outcomes can lead to better heat race outcomes, which can get the driver into the A-Main where more points are available vs. the B/C mains. Here are the points generated AFTER qualifying by qualifying order.

Qualifying Order 1st - 10th = 230.5 heat/feature points.

Qualifying Order 11th - 20th = 228.8 heat/feature points.

Qualifying Order 21st - 30th = 235.1 heat/feature points.

Qualifying Order 31st - 40th = 237.7 heat/feature points.

Qualifying Order 41st - 51st = 237.7 heat/feature points.

 

So if you went out in the first twenty qualifying spots this year, you earned an approximate 17 point qualifying advantage.

If you went out in the first twenty qualifying spots this year, you earned an approximate 7 point heat/feature invert disadvantage.

In 2018, if you qualified 1st - 20th, you earned about 10 additional points vs. somebody qualifying after 20th in the order.

 

I don't have a horse in the race how the format should or should not work, I just wanted to share the data from 2018. 

 

Thanks,

Kevin

 

 


Kevin H.
https://www.nationalsprintcarchampionship.com/


rolldog
MyWebsite
August 14, 2018 at 11:36:21 AM
Joined: 08/01/2013
Posts: 431
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I agree with the elimination of the option for qualifiers 17-26 to run the Friday night program.  Lasoski did it that first year and got burned and no one has even given it a second thought since.

Giving up on your qualifying night after a poor qualifying lap seems like it would be counter-productive.  Brownie may not care since he has a lot of laps at Knoxville, but many of these guys don't.  I would think any laps would be helpful as you are going to need to be on top of your game Friday night.  If you qualified poorly on Wed-Thur, the same may happen Friday (may not apply if you draw a better # for Friday).  If you hurt a motor or car, then those laps probably aren't worth it.

Do they limit qualifying on Friday night to 1 lap due to time and the large # of cars?  I would be ok with group qualifying and still giving them 2 laps.  They would have to balance that with not having too many laps on the track come feature time.

I like the idea of the B feature transfer cars getting spots 17-20 in the A main and the Hard Knox qualifiers starting 21-24.

Lastly, I would like to see the payouts for the B-D/E mains go up a bit.  I think the A-main payouts are good (could always be better).



blazer00
August 14, 2018 at 12:41:23 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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This message was edited on August 14, 2018 at 12:44:05 PM by blazer00
Reply to:
Posted By: rolldog on August 14 2018 at 11:36:21 AM

I agree with the elimination of the option for qualifiers 17-26 to run the Friday night program.  Lasoski did it that first year and got burned and no one has even given it a second thought since.

Giving up on your qualifying night after a poor qualifying lap seems like it would be counter-productive.  Brownie may not care since he has a lot of laps at Knoxville, but many of these guys don't.  I would think any laps would be helpful as you are going to need to be on top of your game Friday night.  If you qualified poorly on Wed-Thur, the same may happen Friday (may not apply if you draw a better # for Friday).  If you hurt a motor or car, then those laps probably aren't worth it.

Do they limit qualifying on Friday night to 1 lap due to time and the large # of cars?  I would be ok with group qualifying and still giving them 2 laps.  They would have to balance that with not having too many laps on the track come feature time.

I like the idea of the B feature transfer cars getting spots 17-20 in the A main and the Hard Knox qualifiers starting 21-24.

Lastly, I would like to see the payouts for the B-D/E mains go up a bit.  I think the A-main payouts are good (could always be better).



I think the idea behind a single lap of qualifying on Friday night is as much to preserve the race track as anything. On  Thursday night with 50 cars qualifying (2 laps ea), five heats, a C, B and A, there were 197 laps at speed. On Friday night there were 65 cars qualifying (1 lap ea), six heats, 2 B's, the A and the World Challenge for a total of 194 laps at speed. But.....keep in mind even though they were only twelve laps ea, the two B's had 24 cars participating in each. So the additional 15 cars on Friday night do add quite an impact on the race track, especially if you double the laps they would put on with 2 lap qualifying. That's just a thought.



rolldog
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August 14, 2018 at 01:43:59 PM
Joined: 08/01/2013
Posts: 431
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Posted By: blazer00 on August 14 2018 at 12:41:23 PM

I think the idea behind a single lap of qualifying on Friday night is as much to preserve the race track as anything. On  Thursday night with 50 cars qualifying (2 laps ea), five heats, a C, B and A, there were 197 laps at speed. On Friday night there were 65 cars qualifying (1 lap ea), six heats, 2 B's, the A and the World Challenge for a total of 194 laps at speed. But.....keep in mind even though they were only twelve laps ea, the two B's had 24 cars participating in each. So the additional 15 cars on Friday night do add quite an impact on the race track, especially if you double the laps they would put on with 2 lap qualifying. That's just a thought.



I think you are probably right.  I did a rough calculation of the number of car laps, at speed, that would be put on the track.  Friday night with the higher number of cars had about 25% more laps even with 1 qualifying lap.




rolldog
MyWebsite
August 14, 2018 at 01:46:00 PM
Joined: 08/01/2013
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Posted By: on at


I'm with Ford on this one.  When Donny came through the B, he was up to 5th place in the A by the time they got to the pit stop.  If it is the right car (and that might only be the #15), someone could come from the C.  They would need a little help as far as cautions go, but I wouldn't count Donny out.



J&J
August 15, 2018 at 12:02:03 AM
Joined: 08/17/2012
Posts: 289
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Posted By: saphead on August 09 2018 at 06:48:56 AM

Settle down people you need to be fast every time you hit the track. The cream will rise and the best driver will take the top step of the podium on Saturday night. No flukes, no Michael Waltrips or Trevor Baynes. The cream shall rise. 

 

 



The cream did rise: 

After Gravel/CJB did not qualify well on Thursday.  Gravel did manage to make his presence on the podium once again on a prelim nite.

With no choice of being able to throw points away and having to run the B on Saturday night starting 7th he finished 3rd transferring to the A. Started 21st along with 3 others from the B Gravel was the only one out of the 4 who charged forward to a 10th place finish & hard charger for the evening! 



Sonicman1
August 15, 2018 at 10:07:52 AM
Joined: 05/30/2016
Posts: 200
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Posted By: rolldog on August 14 2018 at 01:46:00 PM

I'm with Ford on this one.  When Donny came through the B, he was up to 5th place in the A by the time they got to the pit stop.  If it is the right car (and that might only be the #15), someone could come from the C.  They would need a little help as far as cautions go, but I wouldn't count Donny out.



Donny will never be in a C though.  That is why I said it.  If he had a horrible night on Wed or Thurs I would 100% expect him to come take down Friday night and start in the A.  I was there when he won the B and the A....and I wasnt at all surprised.  I'm just saying nobody is going to go all Wolfie anymore and win the D C B.  Or the E D C B.  C and B maybe.  D and C maybe.  B and A maybe.  But not some incredible run through three or more.




blazer00
August 15, 2018 at 10:36:14 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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This message was edited on August 15, 2018 at 10:42:43 AM by blazer00
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Posted By: Sonicman1 on August 15 2018 at 10:07:52 AM

Donny will never be in a C though.  That is why I said it.  If he had a horrible night on Wed or Thurs I would 100% expect him to come take down Friday night and start in the A.  I was there when he won the B and the A....and I wasnt at all surprised.  I'm just saying nobody is going to go all Wolfie anymore and win the D C B.  Or the E D C B.  C and B maybe.  D and C maybe.  B and A maybe.  But not some incredible run through three or more.



The toughest one to win these days on every night, imo, is the B Main if you start at or near the back. Maybe it's time to look at some race lengths.  I have always thought that the D and C are a bit too short on Saturday night. I'd like to see the D at 15 laps and the C at 18 laps on Saturday. On the prelim nights, change the C to 15 laps and the B to 18 laps. For Friday nights, change both B Mains to 18 laps, also. Running 24 car B Main fields for 12 laps.....that's too short . These are not huge changes, but that might make a big difference to a driver making a run on any given night. One prime example this year was Brady Bacon on Friday night. Started 17th in the B and finished fifth, two spots short of a transfer (was 3) with only 12 laps to make a run. Too short is simply too short, regardless. Why run a B if it's only for the top few rows of drivers? I know races have to have a limit, but that limit should be realistic. 



Sonicman1
August 15, 2018 at 12:01:37 PM
Joined: 05/30/2016
Posts: 200
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Posted By: blazer00 on August 15 2018 at 10:36:14 AM

The toughest one to win these days on every night, imo, is the B Main if you start at or near the back. Maybe it's time to look at some race lengths.  I have always thought that the D and C are a bit too short on Saturday night. I'd like to see the D at 15 laps and the C at 18 laps on Saturday. On the prelim nights, change the C to 15 laps and the B to 18 laps. For Friday nights, change both B Mains to 18 laps, also. Running 24 car B Main fields for 12 laps.....that's too short . These are not huge changes, but that might make a big difference to a driver making a run on any given night. One prime example this year was Brady Bacon on Friday night. Started 17th in the B and finished fifth, two spots short of a transfer (was 3) with only 12 laps to make a run. Too short is simply too short, regardless. Why run a B if it's only for the top few rows of drivers? I know races have to have a limit, but that limit should be realistic. 



+1





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