Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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He's a guy who has dominated sprint car racing for the last 10 years & an all time great

My point was just that Sweet & Gravel are the up & coming stars

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A

SAF92,  You are so wrong. Kinser had just as many guys trying to knock him off the top. Sammy, Wolfgang, Blaney,  they all won titles.  Shuman, Jac the wild child. Should I add Mark Kinser,  Brad Doty,  Bobby Allen and I'm sure I missed a few. I have a feeling you may not have been around when these guys were on top of there game.

Sammy and Doug hardly ever ran full tour after 1983 and Blaney wasn’t good enough in the 80s to compete with the big 3. So Steve got a few years on tour from 1986-1992 where he didnt have a ton of competition for the points. That said, Steve would have probably had 2 more titles and a bunch more wins if he didn’t leave for USA in 89 and Nascar in 95. 

Please allow me to be lazy and ask instead of research...

What is the USA referenced above?

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Ok fair enough. I just didnt wanna leave Donny out that's all .

They might of been just as talented but Kinser was always in better equipment. But let me clarify...when I said inferior competition. I wasn't dismissing Sammy, Wolfgang, Blaney, etc... I more so meant the strength of the field. Where in today's sprint car world there is probably 10-15 teams at any given WoO race that have a realistic chance of winning. Back then the amount of competitive cars just wasn't there. Same goes for NASCAR... Since records/results are easier to find look at results for any given race in the 1980s. 15-20 cars will show as DNF for mechanical failure while usually only 8-10 cars were finishing on the lead lap. Equipment, equipment, equipment...

Same goes for the sprint car world. Qualifying back in the 1980s Kinser would be 2-3 seconds faster than half the field. Today the entire field of 35 cars might be within 1 second. Thats what I mean by today's WoO being more competitive.

To be fair, and correct me if I am wrong, but Wolfgang never won an outlaw title, there were only a couple of years that he raced most of the outlaw shows and both years I believe he ran second in points. I used to work with Doug when living in suoux falls, and more often than not I would get in trouble in the morinings as I would not get out to start my day until about 45 minutes after starting time, as doug was telling stories, lol. I Definitely agree with SAF92, and here are a couple stories as to why.

Doug told me that back when he was racing for Weikert, and other teams that had the backing to do this, that when a company would come out with some new trick part, and they made 10 of them lets say, they would make sure they buy all 10 of them so that nobody else could have it. Literally, when a new trick part came out they were the only car in the country that had said part on it. Also, when you read his book, you will learn about the "Lightweight" car they built, they were literally able to shave some 500 lbs off of a race car. Can't say that didn't come as an advantage.

Another thing, Steve had chassis that nobody else had for a long long time. When on the road we were at maxim a couple days, we were walking around the shop just checking it out and there was a Jig that was basically being used as storage. I was told " Thats Jig 1, were all of Steves cars came from." Obviously, there were no cars being built on it when I was there.

Sammy was one of the most innovative guys in all of racing. Reference his open red interview where he talks about being the first person to have a bead lock wheel, "In the whole world."

Karl was just Karl, and his cars were always fast, partly because Karl knew how to make the most out of a little. Mans a Legend.

Bottom line, yeah there was competition for them, however in in that time frame, in a field of 20 cars, 2-4 of them had stuff that nobody else could even think about getting, 10 of them had stuff that was probably 3-4 years old, and the rest had steering arms and radius rods that they pulled out of the salvage yard and welded/grinded to make fit. Thats simply the way it was. Now, you go to a world of outlaws show and there is not a single car in the field that has less than 900 HP on most nights, and the chassis and components are so close you can't hardly tell whats brand new and what is 2 years old. The spread between Brad Sweet and Jason Sides in regards to equipment in 2019 is almost nothing, compared to Steve Kinser and most others back in the 80s.

USA was a breakaway group formed in late 1988 and lasted through 1989.

Copied from Speedway Gazette:

A small group led by Des Moines, Iowa, accountant Larry Clark formed a corporation called the United Sprint Association late in 1988.
USA then stunned the dirt racing community by attracting reigning World of Outlaws king Steve Kinser, Steve's father, Karl, and driver Sammy Swindell through a limited stock offering.
USA publicist Gary Guehler said USA was formed with the intent to reduce the heavy travel which the World of Outlaws schedule requires, increase the team's involvement in rule-making and to aggressively expand sprint car racing through increased corporate sponsorships.
The United Sprint Association ran a handful of shows (six) at the end of the 1988 season at Manzanita Speedway (Arizona), Memphis Motorsport Park (Tennessee) and Devil's Bowl Speedway (Texas).
Ironically the Devil's Bowl Speedway near Dallas (Texas) hosted the very first World of Outlaws sanctioned meeting on March 18, 1978.
The USA winners that year were Steve Kinser, Lealand McSpadden, Mark Kinser, Dave Blaney, Sammy Swindell and Doug Wolfgang.
Steve Kinser was the first USA points champion ahead of Mark Kinser, Sammy Swindell, Dave Blaney, Doug Wolfgang, Bobby Davis Jr, Cris Eash, Ronnie Daniels, Keith Kauffman and Danny Lasoski.
The World of Outlaws top ten pointscores that same year included - Steve Kinser (1st), Sammy Swindell (2nd), Bobby Davis Jr. (3rd), Dave Blaney (4th), Mark Kinser (5th), Cris Eash (7th) and Doug Wolfgang (9th).
On Jan. 14, USA announced its 1989 schedule, which included 47 events in 14 states but requires only 16,000 miles of travel, according to Guehler.
Guehler added that not all the dates were finalized, but pointed to a $50,000-to-win race at Selinsgrove, Pa., as one focal point of the year. Guehler added, "We've got a lot of support and look to have a good year."
As for World of Outlaws' response to USA, publicist Richard Day says, "We welcome the competition. But I think they'll (USA) have a tough time. We hated to lose the guys we did, especially since they are big today because of World of Outlaws. But we think we'll have closer races because everyone will have a chance to win."
In 1989 the USA actually sanctioned a total of 50 races - starting on Feb. 26 at Oglethorpe Speedway in Georgia where Doug Wolfgang beat Steve Kinser and Frankie Kerr - and concluding on Nov. 11 at the Devil's Bowl Speedway (Texas) where Jack Hewitt downed Wolfgang and Mark Kinser,
Steve Kinser repeated as the USA Champion - 1989 was the first time since the World of Outlaws commenced in 1978 that the name Steve Kinser did not appear in their top 20 pointcorers.
The top 10 USA pointscorers that year were Steve Kinser, Sammy Swindell, Mark Kinser, Dave Blaney, Doug Wolfgang, Bobby Allen, Frankie Kerr, Stevie Smith, Kenny Jacobs and Terry Gray.
Bobby Davis Jr. opted to run with the Outlaws and won the 1989 title over Jeff Swindell and Cris Eash.
The USA did not run in 1990 and the "Outlaws" returned to run with the World of Outlaws - Steve Kinser taking another title ahead of Doug Wolfgang and Joe Gaerte.

One thing I overlooked is a tip of the cap to Donny Schatz for being a class act. For all the crap that people sometimes say about him about not being personable, I can honestly say that I have never had that experience around him. Yeah he might be a little shy from time to time but so am I in public so I guess I get it more than others. In his interview he stood by his crew & team & did not blame anyone. He was obviously dissappointed as a competitor but held his head up & congratulated Brad.

Hopefully we are in for a good healthy & competitive rivalry between the Donny & Brad in the years to come.

Bingo. All this said Steve Kinser is still one of the greats and you can't fault him for driving the best cars... He still went out and won the races. But I will always think Donny's sucess is more impressive. For all we know... I dont think its out of the question that Donny goes on to win 3 or 4+ more championships and 5 more Knoxville Nat'l titles haha.

I've only had one experience with Donny. In July I talked to him at Attica regarding the development of the Ford motor... He gave me a few minutes of his time between the national anthem and moment he needed to get in the car for heat races. I expected a quick, short-winded answer but he went into detail about the cylinder heads and how World Racing Group deemed the block/head combo illegal... essentially causing TSR to start development over from scratch leading to the long delay of the motor's unveiling. I figured the guy  would be busy and not give me the time of day so I thought that was pretty cool of him.

Then with social media and podcasts like Open Red we are starting to see more of the personality side of these drivers. And so far what I've seen from Donny makes me regret not being more of a fan of his all these years.

On the argument about lesser competition...I think Steve faced better drivers but Donny faces good drivers with pretty equal cars.  Just my opinion.

Ive talked to Donny numerous times and he was always very nice.  Great with kids.  Saw him take time away from talking to Ricky to talk to a older gentleman with a military jacket and hat on.  Thanked him for his service.  Ive never understood why people think Donny is rude.  

Absolutely. Like I've said before, I don't expect any of these guys to be my buddy. They have a job to do & I like to watch them race

Same with Sammy. He seems to be kind of a sourpuss, & lots of folks who've been following this sport longer than me think he's a a dirty driver. In the 10 years I've been watching, haven't seen him do anything really bad & he's a kick in the ass to watch (until recently...)

I'm kind of pissed off I have spent so many years watching Sprint Car racing just to find out that up to now all of the drivers that I believed were pretty friggen Amazing were only good because they had Superior equipment and had no competition! Damn... What was I thinking!! They even wrote books about some of them. AND I BOUGHT THEM....

P.s. Anybody interested in a Autographed copy of STILL WIDE OPEN and THE WOLF?  I'm keeping my copy of EARL... At least until I find out he really wasn't able to run a good race program... :-)  

Excellent sarcasm!

Again, as was said before this is in no way saying that those guys weren't good, and probably better than the rest of the field. But you just have to think about it. Donny Schatz is the arguably best sprint car driver in America today. How many features does he win a year on average? Now look back at Kinser in his prime, how many features did he win a year on average? I would say Steve has that number likely doubled over Donny. Nobody can sit there and tell me that the talent through the field as a whole was worse than it is today. Everyone states that Brad Doty was a great race car driver, however he states that he won 4 races one year to Steves 56 or something like that, finishing 2nd to him some 30 something times. If you can tell me there was absolutely no mechanical advantage there, thats just delusional. 

Fact of the matter is, that is just the way it was back then, and thats not a knock to the greats of the sport. Kinser, Wolfgang, Sammy, and a host of others were all very talented great drivers, just as Donny is today. The reason that we have not and will never see dominance like that again, is because nobody will ever have a car that is heads and shoulders above the rest anymore. With the way the rules are, and the way parts are manufactured, everyone has the same stuff, and the playing field as far as equipment has leveled. Sure, companies have come out with some new stuff. Winters came out with a new rear end style a couple years ago, but fact remains that whether you are Schatz and buy that rear end brand new in January, or Joe Blow that bought it 2 years ago, its the same rear end, you are on a level playing field in that regard. Not a single team is building parts for their cars anymore, (unless they are/were a chassis manufacturer, IE. CJB might make some things) I'd be willing to be that nobody on the outlaw tour is building engines in their trailer, garage, etc. Everything is sent to motor builders, even the shark stuff. 

I wish I could have lived through that time to be able to witness it. I am great friends with Doug, and wish I could have seen him race, I came around a year after he was hurt. Those guys are my heros, but you also have to call a spade a spade, especially when your have first hand knowledge of what went on back then from the mouth of someone who was one of those greats.

I love how this thread is now about Donny and Steve. The best rise to the top.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

OK!  Steve vs. Donny thread #407!

Sidenote, probably unrelated to the topic because it's not about Kinser or Schatz: did Jacob Allen fade from the lead because his tires were going away?

Perhaps...  Or maybe they missed the setup alittle and as the fuel burned off the car lost its balance. Gotta keep in mind with 30 plus gallons of fuel on board the center of balance can chan by a lot being methanol is about the same weight per gallon as water at 8.3 lbs per gallon. Figure the car burns off 25 gallons in a race and your losing about 210 lbs of weight on the tail of the car.  That’s over 15% of the cars weight.