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Topic: My Take On The Whole Form Of Motorsports (Dan Wheldon Aftermath) Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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Sprinter 79
MyWebsite
October 17, 2011 at 10:37:06 PM
Joined: 12/05/2010
Posts: 840
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It is sad, that Dan had to loose his life. It is also a sad reality that hind sight becomes 20/20. Racing is never going to be perfectly safe. Whenever mankind presses the issue, pushes the envelope, he or she can pay a huge price. Yesterday, Dan Wheldon paid that price. He was a gentleman, a great racer, and looked up too by many. And he also understood that in the worst case scenario, he could leave this earth in a race car. It can happen at any level in this sport. Wrong place, wrong time, it can happen to anyone. Second guessing the sport, the promoters, the tracks, etc. etc. etc., at this point is all mute. Rest in piece Dan, this will all sort itself out. Let us just hope that this may lead to the next great safety invention, like safer barriers, Hans devices, 5 point safety harnesses and fire suits before this. We should all be proud to have been able to watch Dan drive. I am sure that the current CEO would not have deliberately endangered a driver, fan, or official, and if given the option, he would take yesterday back as a do over........Jim
Never hit stationary objects!

brian26
October 17, 2011 at 10:58:22 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
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Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on October 17 2011 at 08:00:07 PM

At what point do we become like the Romans,who would horribly torture & execute people for entertainment?

For me the appeal is the engineering & mechanical talent of the builders and the competitive skill of the driver; NOT THE BRUSH WITH DEATH



A bit heavy handed don't you think?

 

I'm betting Wheldon would not have even bothered racing in that series if they had slowed these cars down, so that people could enjoy the engineering masterpeices they are. That's what 'car shows' are for.

 

There is no way I could even think of driving 200+ mph, but I do appreciate those that seek to do it.




brian26
October 17, 2011 at 11:04:35 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
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15 car , fiery pileup, one driver dead--in this age of all things!

The real problem is the rev-limiters keeping everybody so close to each other. Things need to be detuned in the rev limiter department so that the cars can spread out a little bit. Trying to keep the entertainment value of close racing in the picture brought us to this. NASCAR showed the way on their 2 1/2 mile tracks.

The 1958, and 1964 big crashes at Indy were on the opening lap. This accident came at lap 12 under what used to be opening lap conditions. I'm amazed they went this long before something on this scale happened.

 

 





Hawker
MyWebsite
October 17, 2011 at 11:15:31 PM
Joined: 11/23/2004
Posts: 2825
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Reply to:
Posted By: brian26 on October 17 2011 at 11:04:35 PM

15 car , fiery pileup, one driver dead--in this age of all things!

The real problem is the rev-limiters keeping everybody so close to each other. Things need to be detuned in the rev limiter department so that the cars can spread out a little bit. Trying to keep the entertainment value of close racing in the picture brought us to this. NASCAR showed the way on their 2 1/2 mile tracks.

The 1958, and 1964 big crashes at Indy were on the opening lap. This accident came at lap 12 under what used to be opening lap conditions. I'm amazed they went this long before something on this scale happened.

 

 



2003 @ TMS should have been a warning....Just sayin'...
Member of this message board since 1997

dirtybeer
October 18, 2011 at 06:01:44 AM
Joined: 11/25/2005
Posts: 558
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Like others have said,I believe Indy cars have just gotten too fast for the fast oval tracks.We see race cars get in the air all the time,but Dan's car took off like it was a plane.We think of sprint cars as being fast,and they are for the surface they race on and the size of the tracks,but there is a world of differnece between going 140 mph in a car with a cage around the driver and going 225 mph in a car without a cage.Think about how fast winged sprints would be going now at Syracuse and how dangerous that would be with todays 900hp lightweight cars.Thankfully the WoO realized the cars were just too fast for the mile dirt tracks and stopped racing on them.I never did go to a race to see the wrecks,I know some people do though,but to go as far as saying you wouldn't care about seeing a race if you knew there was no risk of death,that's just plain weird to me.



vande77
October 18, 2011 at 07:57:10 AM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
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I'm not going to lay blame on anyone. IMO, the way to fix the "pack racing" in Indycar is simple. Give the cars way less downforce, but increase the horsepower so drivers have to work the throttle and drive the cars. The problem with IndyCars on 1 mile tracks like Iowa and 1.5 mile tracks like LV and Texas are that they can go flat out the entire time without lifting. Very similar to how NASCAR runs on Daytona and Talledega.

Would the cars be able to go faster? Yes, but the drivers would have to SLOW DOWN going into the corners and only those teams with a good set-up and good driver would be fast and the cars would get spread out (much like your local dirt tracks).

The only other issue I see is the Catch-fence themselves (and I mean all of them from short tracks to SuperSpeedways). They are designed for one thing only, to keep a car out of the grandstand, the do not abosorb any impact at all. The catch-fence needs to be looked at differently as it needs to serve 2 purposes, (1) to keep cars out of the grandstand and (2) to take impact away during a crash without shredding the car into little bitty pieces.

IMO, a track like Vegas should only have a catch-fence coming out of the 4th corner, down the front straight and into turn #1 (the only place there are grandstands) and increase the height of the SAFER BARRIER to 25-30 feet high (if that is determined to be the safest fence that the cars can hit.

Having said that, I don't think that Dan Wheldon would have survived a crash like that at 150 MPH or even 100 MPH with the angle his car hit the fence (and it wouldn't have mattered if it he hit a concrete barrier, the SAFER BARRIER, or the catch-fence). The way he hit reminded me very much of the night Keith Hutton hit the fence in Oskaloosa during the FRC. An image that will forever be burned into my mind....RIP Keith.

It was a very sad day for motorsports as a whole, however some good MAY come from it if the powers that be take a good hard look at the catch fencing currently used.

As for Jimmy Johnson's comments about IndyCars not belonging on Ovals. Until you have driven one yourself, I don't give you opinion much creedence. If Tony Stewart or Montoya come out and say that, I'll put more heed in their words, as they have actually done it. If racing was about complete safety, there wouldn't be one form of it in the world.

RIP Dan Wheldon and thoughts and prayers to his entire family and his friends.




brian26
October 18, 2011 at 10:30:14 AM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
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Reply to:
Posted By: Hawker on October 17 2011 at 11:15:31 PM
2003 @ TMS should have been a warning....Just sayin'...


If we're referring to the Kenny Brack incident, I don't remember that being a tightly knit pack of cars like this incident. I was coming back to my seat on the front stretch when I saw the fireball going through the air (turned out to be Brack and his car). I'll check the video again.

 

I think it's time to really look at the incident itself in regards to Vegas this time, and and decipher what caused his car to go into the catch fence.

- The car in front of Wheldon checked up, and Wheldon had nowhere to go but over the top. He hit NO OTHER CARS while he was sailing through the air (in a smooth bottom car , after the ground effect vacuum is broken).

Wheldon was on the inside of the turn which gave him more distance to build momentum towards the wall, (just like some lost their lives at Langhorne).

Tommy Hinnershitz stayed alive when he knew he had to stay close to the wall at Langhorne.

 

$3-$4 million dollars of cars being destroyed , 15 cars out on live tv, fire everywhere---still Wheldon only hit one car.




ChazT
MyWebsite
October 18, 2011 at 10:43:16 AM
Joined: 03/07/2011
Posts: 50
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This message was edited on October 18, 2011 at 10:52:10 AM by ChazT
i hate people who go to see wreaks, I get pissed at the guys who scream and shout at the track during a crash and raise their beer cheering to it. Which happens at alot of dirt tracks and nascar events, or people who say they go for the wreaks. The thing is, the element of death is what makes a race car driver bigger than any other athlete, and is a reason to look up to them in amazement, not just for the skills to do amazing things behind the wheel but on the edge of a disaster at the moment of a mistake. Sim racing it seems is a healthy alternative for some on here, its all done on a computer and no one ever gets hurt. The racing is the same and better than real life at times, skill sets are the same according to real drivers, all done with wheel and pedals. I do it cause I don't have thousands of dollars for the real thing. But, I would like to think the thing between what I do compared to the real thing is the danger and nerve to have my body and life on the line while doing the same maneuvers. AJ Foyt says if you cant drive a car into a concrete wall you shouldn't be able to drive one, so maybe I ant the only one that's CRAZY. I don't want mankind to make it to where we cant push the envelope anymore as one refereed to what race car drivers CHOSE to do. But, like another refereed its marketable 1st and talented 2nd so I guess to ensure danica patricks of the world aren't gonna end up being a lost investment by stock holders they have to change this factor cause some guys on the track aren't talented, just marketable.

ChazT
MyWebsite
October 18, 2011 at 10:49:19 AM
Joined: 03/07/2011
Posts: 50
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and to those who didn't see, i erased my original post and reposted it but here is what it said, I know I'll prolly been banned, but, all this talk after dan wheldons tragic wreak has just made me have to write this. I feel I am the only one saying this and after jimmie johnson said, take indy cars off the ovals. I feel what Im about to say relates to sprint car racing, just as much as other forms of motorsports cause of how dangerous they are. So, take the indy cars off the ovals give them 300hp engines n fluffy pillow walls around the track. They run almost 240 at indy for the last 5 yrs and run at texas and lv for several yrs with similiar speeds. But, the day drivers can get in race cars and the sport has made it to the point there is absolutely no way possible to lose a life on the race track is the day I wont watch or support any form of motorsport that is that. IT IS sad and tragic guys lose their lives, but it is what separetes race car drivers from every regular guy walkin down the street. No one is forced: into the race car, to sky dive, join the army, swim with sharks, play with deadly snakes, snowboard/ski down mountains/cliffs, ride rapids, do tricks on motorcycles/skateboards/snowboards, and every other thing that a regular person says; THAT'S INSANE, CRAZY AND I'LL NEVER DO THAT. And in all those things, if things go wrong or someone makes a mistake, you can die. It is risk versus reward, and to most fans and drivers the reward of racing a car past the limits is the greatest feeling in the world. But, they don't re carve mountains with safety nets, add safer barriers to the sides of roaring rapids, make bullets that don't kill, make a earth with pillow cushions, add foam pits to competitive extreme sports "that's for practice", make the sharks get neutered, remove venom from the snake, and they should never remove the element of death from racing. Its what makes it more than a game, strikes fear in a regular person, the thrill and nerve it takes to do it. You want a safe form of fast turns and speed, ride a roller coaster, anyone can do it, u wont get hurt or killed, oh wait that still happens sometimes.. So maybe no matter what they do to control the cars the element will still be there? I don't know but: slowing the cars, changing the tracks, limiting speeds and softening the blows, only takes the respect from drivers and fans of the vehicles and the tracks they race on. At that point the element of death is gone from racing, IT WILL BE SAD! Cause, I don't know about you, but a race car should always FOREVER be feared and respected for what it can do..... hopefully that acceptable for you guys and gals


NWFAN
October 18, 2011 at 10:58:13 AM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2644
Reply

this is a very sad accident indeed. all of the safety that man can conger up will not protect "blunt force head trama" from a projectile travelling over two hundred miles an hour!!! RIP Dan Weldon!! our prayers are with your family....


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

Michael_N
October 18, 2011 at 10:59:27 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 789
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Reply to:
Posted By: on at


Big difference between those cars and the ones that are thankfully now retired from Indycar. You can hear from the incar camera that the drivers at least had to lift to make it through the corners. Guess that is what 300 extra HP will do. Not saying they need 900 HP again but a lot less downforce and 750 will be a good start. With brand new cars for next year they have a chance to do a lot of things for the good of the sport. Hopefully they go the right direction.



Ben 31
October 18, 2011 at 11:23:13 AM
Joined: 10/12/2007
Posts: 228
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Vande 77 hit the hail on the head. These catch fences (including the fences at the your local dirt track) are like cheese graders.

In the short track world.... Its time for the use of steel I-beams to go away. Even if they are on the outer portion of the fence they still can shear a cage. Using a round pole instead of an I- beam will prevent the shearing of a cage and still give the wall/fence assembly strength. Its also time for the concrete walls to go away. Either use a "soft wall" or a guardrail the gives a little bit. Also, while I'm on a rant, the top edges of the the concrete wall which form a 90 degree angle are pretty good at collapsing a roll cage... so make those go away by taking away the concrete wall or rounding them off significantly.

Race track design, especially at our short tracks, is causing injuries and death. You need to look at every possible location a car can reach. You need to look at every possible angle a car can strike something. Eliminate hard angle surfaces, eliminate anything that can enter the cockpit (fence post, etc.) Make sure the tops of fences have top rails running along the top of the vertical support posts.

I can keep rambling on and on about this stuff but I think you get my point. Its going to be a long time before sprint cars get thicker tubing and bigger cages so we might as well work on the tracks.

Ben T


"If you're gonna run the bottom, you might as well get 
a real job."


linbob
October 18, 2011 at 12:01:36 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1699
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Reply to:
Posted By: brkile on October 17 2011 at 04:41:16 PM

You might try some punctuation. You might have some valid points here but I'll be darned if I can figure out what you are trying to say.



I feel part of the problen is Crate engens and crate cars. Every notor and every chassis is the same. This causes cars to stack up because they all have same power, and how do you pass a car if it has same poer. You have to hope you can get chassis set up. Indy cars have had some very close races, which shows how equal they are. Until cars get spread out the air is like driving into a hurricane. It is easy to second guess after the event but maybe they should have run a B main and started say 26 cars. As i saw it the crash was at mid pack; so it might have happaned any way..I get a little mad when TV stations never care about racing until a death, then they all have a prime time story. The ET magazine is an example.



Michael_N
October 18, 2011 at 12:36:22 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 789
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Reply to:
Posted By: on at


Enjoy many of your posts sir but this time you are just simply wrong. Taking the power away encourages the pack racing and only increases the inability to complete passes. NASCAR has gotten away with it at Dega and Daytona for a long time now. Too much downforce, no lifting, too easy for the following cars to keep up no matter how well their cars are set up or how good the driver is. Mario Andretti won the Daytona 500 in a car that didn't even have a spoiler on it. Discussion is good and hopefully the big shots at Indycar will do a lot of it to get these cars back in the hands of the drivers and not the engineers.



Michael_N
October 18, 2011 at 12:38:57 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 789
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Reply to:
Posted By: Michael_N on October 18 2011 at 12:36:22 PM

Enjoy many of your posts sir but this time you are just simply wrong. Taking the power away encourages the pack racing and only increases the inability to complete passes. NASCAR has gotten away with it at Dega and Daytona for a long time now. Too much downforce, no lifting, too easy for the following cars to keep up no matter how well their cars are set up or how good the driver is. Mario Andretti won the Daytona 500 in a car that didn't even have a spoiler on it. Discussion is good and hopefully the big shots at Indycar will do a lot of it to get these cars back in the hands of the drivers and not the engineers.



Pretty cool stuff. Mario at Daytona:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs7HsSYCZ6U

 




jackhole22
MyWebsite
October 18, 2011 at 01:09:25 PM
Joined: 01/14/2006
Posts: 1348
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I can agree for the most part. Death is a factor. I am not going as far as saying take out the death and I'll never watch. It is just a factor and it does separate the men from the boys, at some level. Jac made a career on defying those odds and getting his car to the front.

This isn't Ballet!


-----------------------------------------------------
A healthy diet of dirt in my nachos and beer.

oswald
October 18, 2011 at 01:13:07 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 2005
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: ChazT on October 18 2011 at 10:49:19 AM
and to those who didn't see, i erased my original post and reposted it but here is what it said, I know I'll prolly been banned, but, all this talk after dan wheldons tragic wreak has just made me have to write this. I feel I am the only one saying this and after jimmie johnson said, take indy cars off the ovals. I feel what Im about to say relates to sprint car racing, just as much as other forms of motorsports cause of how dangerous they are. So, take the indy cars off the ovals give them 300hp engines n fluffy pillow walls around the track. They run almost 240 at indy for the last 5 yrs and run at texas and lv for several yrs with similiar speeds. But, the day drivers can get in race cars and the sport has made it to the point there is absolutely no way possible to lose a life on the race track is the day I wont watch or support any form of motorsport that is that. IT IS sad and tragic guys lose their lives, but it is what separetes race car drivers from every regular guy walkin down the street. No one is forced: into the race car, to sky dive, join the army, swim with sharks, play with deadly snakes, snowboard/ski down mountains/cliffs, ride rapids, do tricks on motorcycles/skateboards/snowboards, and every other thing that a regular person says; THAT'S INSANE, CRAZY AND I'LL NEVER DO THAT. And in all those things, if things go wrong or someone makes a mistake, you can die. It is risk versus reward, and to most fans and drivers the reward of racing a car past the limits is the greatest feeling in the world. But, they don't re carve mountains with safety nets, add safer barriers to the sides of roaring rapids, make bullets that don't kill, make a earth with pillow cushions, add foam pits to competitive extreme sports "that's for practice", make the sharks get neutered, remove venom from the snake, and they should never remove the element of death from racing. Its what makes it more than a game, strikes fear in a regular person, the thrill and nerve it takes to do it. You want a safe form of fast turns and speed, ride a roller coaster, anyone can do it, u wont get hurt or killed, oh wait that still happens sometimes.. So maybe no matter what they do to control the cars the element will still be there? I don't know but: slowing the cars, changing the tracks, limiting speeds and softening the blows, only takes the respect from drivers and fans of the vehicles and the tracks they race on. At that point the element of death is gone from racing, IT WILL BE SAD! Cause, I don't know about you, but a race car should always FOREVER be feared and respected for what it can do..... hopefully that acceptable for you guys and gals


You clearly say the day there is no chance of a driver getting killed you will stop watching racing. You are sick. Please stop being a fan NOW. We don't need race fans like you.

revjimk
October 18, 2011 at 01:20:41 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7904
Reply

"A bit heavy handed don't you think?" Maybe so, but I was responding to the guy who said he would lose interest if there wasn't the possibility of death: sick, like the Romans. Broken bones aren't bad enough?

Of course racing is dangerous, I'm not saying to slow down the cars, not sure if there is a 100% solution. I'm just saying all the safety improvements over the years are good, let's keep improving.

And yes, drivers have some big balls, they're entertaining those of who would never drive in a sprint car race (Like me!)

But I can't imagine a driver saying he enjoyed the prospect of death... that guy was a spectator, I bet.

And as I said on another thread, Dan went down doing what he loved




ChazT
MyWebsite
October 18, 2011 at 01:26:21 PM
Joined: 03/07/2011
Posts: 50
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never said i enjoyed it, just said the element should always be there

SLINK51
October 18, 2011 at 01:29:07 PM
Joined: 08/10/2007
Posts: 1797
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This message was edited on October 18, 2011 at 01:31:08 PM by SLINK51

I respectfully disagree, and will let it at that.





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