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Topic: Where did it all go wrong open wheelers? Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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David Smith Jr
MyWebsite
July 23, 2011 at 12:32:14 PM
Joined: 11/20/2004
Posts: 9152
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Watching a video that I got from Lawton one year from the 1989 season featuring the NCRA outlaw sprints and NCRA super modifieds. I forgot just how strong NCRA was in their 410 division and just how many OKC/Lawton/Tulsa guys ran the NCRA super modified deal.

Where did it all go wrong? I know Emmett bringing in ASCS rules hurt the 410 deal but geez, looking at that video there was some names back then and alot of cars for both divisions.


David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com


Galen
July 24, 2011 at 07:11:07 AM
Joined: 07/20/2006
Posts: 243
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: David Smith Jr on July 23 2011 at 12:32:14 PM

Watching a video that I got from Lawton one year from the 1989 season featuring the NCRA outlaw sprints and NCRA super modifieds. I forgot just how strong NCRA was in their 410 division and just how many OKC/Lawton/Tulsa guys ran the NCRA super modified deal.

Where did it all go wrong? I know Emmett bringing in ASCS rules hurt the 410 deal but geez, looking at that video there was some names back then and alot of cars for both divisions.



David, you're probably familiar with the story of the blind men and the elephant, each describing what an elephant is by the part they could touch. Bottom line here is money, of course, but why did it get so expensive and who retreated, the promoters or the racers? The NCRA 410's HAD to be the same as the Outlaws 410's, and all the trick parts just got ridiculous. To justify the cost of the cars, the purse needed to go up, but car count had started to slip anyway. The promoters couldn't make any money, so they stopped booking 410 shows. The slide had already started when the ASCS jumped into the game, and I doubt too many viable 410 teams went with Emmett right away. Guys like Court Grandstaff, who had a solid sponsor, held on and raced with the Outlaws even after the NCRA dropped 410's. It was the teams who couldn't afford it in the first place who had a choice to quit or go ASCS. How many 360 teams wound up going IMCA, or one of those classes? I think the cost jump between the supers and an injected 360 surprised a lot of people and everything just started sliding down a class or two. Throw in the economy, the changing family dynamic where Momma had a lot more say on where the money went, NASCAR on TV every Friday and Saturday night and you've got a hell of big elephant, and you can't just grab the tail and tell me what it is.



mod10g
July 24, 2011 at 04:17:31 PM
Joined: 01/24/2007
Posts: 22
Reply
I think we are beginning to see it starting in the modified class, there are a few guys at each track that can afford to build a solid modified and run up front. Now the SSM class has taken the upper hand at a lot of tracks with the largest car counts and usually the best racing and it cost about half as much. I guess we will see in a few more years.


helper monkey
July 24, 2011 at 07:57:16 PM
Joined: 06/10/2007
Posts: 101
Reply

Here's my take on this: Jeff Gordon.

Ever since Jeff Gordon made the rise to fame through the open wheel ranks, every well-healed parent (dad) that dreamt of racing has pushed his kid into racing so he could:

1. Live vicariously through his kids exploits and

2. "Develop" his kid into the next NASCRAP superstar.

This in turn has raised the cost of grass roots racing because these "development deal" parents have spent their next egg on these kids. Doug Auld and Jeff Swindell touch on different aspects of this phenomenon in the last issue of Sprint Car and Midget. Doug's column characterizes the parents and Jeff's points out that you can now buy speed. So, the dad buys speed and the kid has no respect for it and tears everything, including his competitors, up.

I know everyone want's to blame the economy, but listen, Oklahoma's oil patch is BOOMING and that means all other industry in Oklahoma is in a good position for growth. Unemployment in OKC is 4.4%. That's the lowest in the nation. The economy in 1989 was terrible. So if the economy is the problem, then grass roots auto racing is done.

HMR



brian26
July 24, 2011 at 08:56:20 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Galen on July 24 2011 at 07:11:07 AM

David, you're probably familiar with the story of the blind men and the elephant, each describing what an elephant is by the part they could touch. Bottom line here is money, of course, but why did it get so expensive and who retreated, the promoters or the racers? The NCRA 410's HAD to be the same as the Outlaws 410's, and all the trick parts just got ridiculous. To justify the cost of the cars, the purse needed to go up, but car count had started to slip anyway. The promoters couldn't make any money, so they stopped booking 410 shows. The slide had already started when the ASCS jumped into the game, and I doubt too many viable 410 teams went with Emmett right away. Guys like Court Grandstaff, who had a solid sponsor, held on and raced with the Outlaws even after the NCRA dropped 410's. It was the teams who couldn't afford it in the first place who had a choice to quit or go ASCS. How many 360 teams wound up going IMCA, or one of those classes? I think the cost jump between the supers and an injected 360 surprised a lot of people and everything just started sliding down a class or two. Throw in the economy, the changing family dynamic where Momma had a lot more say on where the money went, NASCAR on TV every Friday and Saturday night and you've got a hell of big elephant, and you can't just grab the tail and tell me what it is.



I'll have to "second" Galen on this.




mjm sleepy
July 25, 2011 at 06:40:55 AM
Joined: 03/29/2007
Posts: 729
Reply

Modified classes that are strong now,but stronger a few yrs ago are goin to suffer the same fate.

"Sport" ."econo" or "B" mod teams that can afford to run a $15,000 engine at a local track for a $400 A feature win are what will bring about 10 car fields takin the green at tracks that at 1 time had to run 2 B features to narrow the field for the A feature.

Facts are facts.

 




OKCFan12
MyWebsite
July 25, 2011 at 10:30:08 PM
Joined: 04/18/2005
Posts: 4764
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: helper monkey on July 24 2011 at 07:57:16 PM

Here's my take on this: Jeff Gordon.

Ever since Jeff Gordon made the rise to fame through the open wheel ranks, every well-healed parent (dad) that dreamt of racing has pushed his kid into racing so he could:

1. Live vicariously through his kids exploits and

2. "Develop" his kid into the next NASCRAP superstar.

This in turn has raised the cost of grass roots racing because these "development deal" parents have spent their next egg on these kids. Doug Auld and Jeff Swindell touch on different aspects of this phenomenon in the last issue of Sprint Car and Midget. Doug's column characterizes the parents and Jeff's points out that you can now buy speed. So, the dad buys speed and the kid has no respect for it and tears everything, including his competitors, up.

I know everyone want's to blame the economy, but listen, Oklahoma's oil patch is BOOMING and that means all other industry in Oklahoma is in a good position for growth. Unemployment in OKC is 4.4%. That's the lowest in the nation. The economy in 1989 was terrible. So if the economy is the problem, then grass roots auto racing is done.

HMR



if ever I wanted to enthusiastically applaud an opinion on here......this is it lol.

thank you for pointing with great clarity the bullshit claim that problems in racing are "the economy".

The problem is the economy of racing. it costs way too much for way too little. promoters have to get serious about rules and stay on top of them. I remember an article around 2001 in the oklahoman in which Emmett Hahn talked about ASCS and how guys could run competitively with the Gary Wright's with 19k motors. He was right - and it was a great time for ASCS and regional sprint car racing.

Now a decade later....the cost for top of the line ascs motors is well in excess of 40k. I've heard that some of the Don Ott motors are going for much more than that - but point is the same. the cost to run competitively with the top teams is double what it was ten years ago (maybe worse).

Thats not good. One of the best things about ASCS is how universal it is among sprint racing at dirt tracks. you can load up and go run coast to coast at tons of places if you want, but infinitely more importantly - it meant a lot of drivers outside your immediate could come run at your track.

I'm interested in hearing thoughts/opinions how to address this. OCRS has seen the same type of thing - it's insanely expensive to run competitively with those. And it sounds like in many places the 305 deal has doubled/tripled its cost in the past few years. Why does have to be so damn expensive? I'm no motor expert but surely there is a way to still come up with 85% of the horsepower and cut about 50% of the HP out (if not more). I mean it's all there - ripe time to do it. I mean Donny Schatz motor deal he was a part of was a good idea. those motors were like 15k and maybe sacrificed what? half second/full second off current 410's............why the funk havent any tracks tried something like this???

I think it rings extremely true - the economy has hurt racing in a lot areas. Indiana, Ohio, PA have been absolutely drilled by the economy - and yet you haven't seen their regional racing scenes take a dive off a cliff like here in Oklahoma. the collective racing scene here is in such a pitiful and depressing state....and yet like the good fellow above stated - the economy here has been hit a lot lighter than most places. so it's not the economy. it's the economy that has been created in racing - imho by track promoters too lazy to actually have sensible rulebooks. hell - you're lucky if a track even has one in this area lol. pathetic.


How much would could a wouldchuck chuck if a 
wouldchuck could chuck would

catpuppy
July 25, 2011 at 11:50:30 PM
Joined: 07/26/2005
Posts: 1846
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: OKCFan12 on July 25 2011 at 10:30:08 PM

if ever I wanted to enthusiastically applaud an opinion on here......this is it lol.

thank you for pointing with great clarity the bullshit claim that problems in racing are "the economy".

The problem is the economy of racing. it costs way too much for way too little. promoters have to get serious about rules and stay on top of them. I remember an article around 2001 in the oklahoman in which Emmett Hahn talked about ASCS and how guys could run competitively with the Gary Wright's with 19k motors. He was right - and it was a great time for ASCS and regional sprint car racing.

Now a decade later....the cost for top of the line ascs motors is well in excess of 40k. I've heard that some of the Don Ott motors are going for much more than that - but point is the same. the cost to run competitively with the top teams is double what it was ten years ago (maybe worse).

Thats not good. One of the best things about ASCS is how universal it is among sprint racing at dirt tracks. you can load up and go run coast to coast at tons of places if you want, but infinitely more importantly - it meant a lot of drivers outside your immediate could come run at your track.

I'm interested in hearing thoughts/opinions how to address this. OCRS has seen the same type of thing - it's insanely expensive to run competitively with those. And it sounds like in many places the 305 deal has doubled/tripled its cost in the past few years. Why does have to be so damn expensive? I'm no motor expert but surely there is a way to still come up with 85% of the horsepower and cut about 50% of the HP out (if not more). I mean it's all there - ripe time to do it. I mean Donny Schatz motor deal he was a part of was a good idea. those motors were like 15k and maybe sacrificed what? half second/full second off current 410's............why the funk havent any tracks tried something like this???

I think it rings extremely true - the economy has hurt racing in a lot areas. Indiana, Ohio, PA have been absolutely drilled by the economy - and yet you haven't seen their regional racing scenes take a dive off a cliff like here in Oklahoma. the collective racing scene here is in such a pitiful and depressing state....and yet like the good fellow above stated - the economy here has been hit a lot lighter than most places. so it's not the economy. it's the economy that has been created in racing - imho by track promoters too lazy to actually have sensible rulebooks. hell - you're lucky if a track even has one in this area lol. pathetic.



Cody, it is not so much the tracks not having a rule book but more in the lines of the promoters not teching the cars. They are scared of getting a bad rap as someone that will call out a cheater. It is all about the car count to them.Let them cheat as long as I have x amount of cars in my pits.

You mentioned a certain division of cars in your post. It is a known fact that this division had certain drivers running illegal last year but since they were the top runners in the series they were allowed to run illegal. It was even admitted by the series president. I am not running the series down but just showing how one little thing can snow ball into a much bigger problem. Now the thing that was illegal last year is legal this year. That one little part is at least a 2 grand part. Some might say you can by said part for lesser. But, I have heard of trusted engine builders say do not come to me with that cheaper stuff b/c I do not want my name on it.

That is what was so good about the old NCRA is that there was a set of rules and Tulsa , Okc , Muskogee all had the same rules. Yes, we all know that some drivers pushed the rules. Shoot we are racers we will try anything to push them. But, also the old NCRA guys knew what was in-store for them if they did push them to much. Nowadays it seems as if it is a slap on the hand and say ok do not do it again.

 


"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 

Brew
MyWebsite
July 26, 2011 at 10:35:41 PM
Joined: 12/22/2007
Posts: 46
Reply
Take the wings off and put a 14" wide right rear wheel rule in place and it will solve 90% of the cost issues..... If you can only put 500 H.P. to the ground, the rest of the H.P.(cost) would be unneeded. I have been running the e-sprint deal when I can since the beginning of last year and I still have the same $3500.00 engine in the car and the same $15.00 take off tires on the car that I started with last May! The lap times are a second per lap slower than a winged car, but the racing is awesome and the cost is fractional of a winged car!


mjm sleepy
July 26, 2011 at 10:57:22 PM
Joined: 03/29/2007
Posts: 729
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Brew on July 26 2011 at 10:35:41 PM
Take the wings off and put a 14" wide right rear wheel rule in place and it will solve 90% of the cost issues..... If you can only put 500 H.P. to the ground, the rest of the H.P.(cost) would be unneeded. I have been running the e-sprint deal when I can since the beginning of last year and I still have the same $3500.00 engine in the car and the same $15.00 take off tires on the car that I started with last May! The lap times are a second per lap slower than a winged car, but the racing is awesome and the cost is fractional of a winged car!


Cody, if your post had a LIKE Button, I'd have clicked it.

Thats what I'm talking bout.



BobcatJD
July 26, 2011 at 11:15:01 PM
Joined: 08/01/2005
Posts: 915
Reply

The cars are still out there. they are just parked for what ever reason {economy, heat, track conditions, etc}. These cars that we saw just a few years ago didnt dissappear theyre just parked and probably will stay that way until things change.

My cars are race ready but have only put them on the track 3 times this year. For me the intrest and desire faded some when SFS closed but thats not the major reason economy is a big part, things arent the same anymore. Once I hit the gas station its $100 the Pit Gate needs another $100 I Hop is around $50 and we havnt even put tires or fuel in the Race Car. There is alot my family can do with an extra $300 on Fri.

People can say that if a promoter pays more more cars would come out, I dont think so it will only make track even less profitable if they make any money now.

There have been a few threads wondering what can fix our sport, people have suggested cutting classes, increased pay, unified rules all have meret for consideration but none of these will bring back racing in this economy. Our sport has to take it one step at a time, we didnt get here over nite and wont be fixed over nite.

Is racing goimg away? "absolutly not" they have been racing anything they can ride or drive since the beginning of time but there are problems out there that need to be addressed.

Maybe there is still too much racing out there any Fri. or Sat. you can drive an hour and see a race but its not the racing fans are use to seeing. This is where the focus needs to be, even the cars up make it a race weater there is 5 10 or 20 cars, 5 cars with in a second of each other can still be an exciting race. you will always have the driver that really cant afford the class and it will show at the end of the race but it is still another car out there.

Litlle Tracks need to run Little Cars and Big tracks need to run big cars. I still think that 3 classes of cars Sprint Stock Cars and Mods all with entry level classes. Promoters need to quit trying to build another class for their track it really only hurts your track. If promoters dont unify the rules than maybe the drivers should and say this what we're runnin

ya My mini stock may be obsolete in a few years but it is still the least expensive racin I've ever done and think it could be an entry level somewhere but not with these rules. I-44 changed there exhaust rule to stock exhaust, I havent changed my car yet but think its a move in the right direction. If the promoters would set some statewide rules for all 6 classes it would help but its like workin with your compitition and that is hard to accomplish in any bussiness but needs to be done for the good of the sport. I would give up my $300 race money one weekend if the promoters would come together in a banquet room and make some changes for the good of the sport but until that happens it will stay in disaray.

 

 


"Racing is an Addiction cured by Poverty"         
BOBCAT

brian26
July 27, 2011 at 01:28:15 AM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Brew on July 26 2011 at 10:35:41 PM
Take the wings off and put a 14" wide right rear wheel rule in place and it will solve 90% of the cost issues..... If you can only put 500 H.P. to the ground, the rest of the H.P.(cost) would be unneeded. I have been running the e-sprint deal when I can since the beginning of last year and I still have the same $3500.00 engine in the car and the same $15.00 take off tires on the car that I started with last May! The lap times are a second per lap slower than a winged car, but the racing is awesome and the cost is fractional of a winged car!


I remember that working very well years ago. I know of several guys that kept the same tires nearly an entire season, even if they ran every weekend.

 

I just got the oppurtunity to get the VERY FIRST racing wing used in the state of Oklahoma! The guy told me it worked very well on his old car, but he kept wearing out the clutch on his car. It was back in 1964, and it was ruled illegal at OkC after the first time, but he ran it all year at Enid. Even then he knew the cost would go up. As long as he was the only guy running a wing, it was worth it.





KOP
MyWebsite
July 27, 2011 at 07:17:30 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 1913
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: BobcatJD on July 26 2011 at 11:15:01 PM

The cars are still out there. they are just parked for what ever reason {economy, heat, track conditions, etc}. These cars that we saw just a few years ago didnt dissappear theyre just parked and probably will stay that way until things change.

My cars are race ready but have only put them on the track 3 times this year. For me the intrest and desire faded some when SFS closed but thats not the major reason economy is a big part, things arent the same anymore. Once I hit the gas station its $100 the Pit Gate needs another $100 I Hop is around $50 and we havnt even put tires or fuel in the Race Car. There is alot my family can do with an extra $300 on Fri.

People can say that if a promoter pays more more cars would come out, I dont think so it will only make track even less profitable if they make any money now.

There have been a few threads wondering what can fix our sport, people have suggested cutting classes, increased pay, unified rules all have meret for consideration but none of these will bring back racing in this economy. Our sport has to take it one step at a time, we didnt get here over nite and wont be fixed over nite.

Is racing goimg away? "absolutly not" they have been racing anything they can ride or drive since the beginning of time but there are problems out there that need to be addressed.

Maybe there is still too much racing out there any Fri. or Sat. you can drive an hour and see a race but its not the racing fans are use to seeing. This is where the focus needs to be, even the cars up make it a race weater there is 5 10 or 20 cars, 5 cars with in a second of each other can still be an exciting race. you will always have the driver that really cant afford the class and it will show at the end of the race but it is still another car out there.

Litlle Tracks need to run Little Cars and Big tracks need to run big cars. I still think that 3 classes of cars Sprint Stock Cars and Mods all with entry level classes. Promoters need to quit trying to build another class for their track it really only hurts your track. If promoters dont unify the rules than maybe the drivers should and say this what we're runnin

ya My mini stock may be obsolete in a few years but it is still the least expensive racin I've ever done and think it could be an entry level somewhere but not with these rules. I-44 changed there exhaust rule to stock exhaust, I havent changed my car yet but think its a move in the right direction. If the promoters would set some statewide rules for all 6 classes it would help but its like workin with your compitition and that is hard to accomplish in any bussiness but needs to be done for the good of the sport. I would give up my $300 race money one weekend if the promoters would come together in a banquet room and make some changes for the good of the sport but until that happens it will stay in disaray.

 

 



LOL @ I HOP being a part of racing expenses wink



catpuppy
July 27, 2011 at 09:30:46 AM
Joined: 07/26/2005
Posts: 1846
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Brew on July 26 2011 at 10:35:41 PM
Take the wings off and put a 14" wide right rear wheel rule in place and it will solve 90% of the cost issues..... If you can only put 500 H.P. to the ground, the rest of the H.P.(cost) would be unneeded. I have been running the e-sprint deal when I can since the beginning of last year and I still have the same $3500.00 engine in the car and the same $15.00 take off tires on the car that I started with last May! The lap times are a second per lap slower than a winged car, but the racing is awesome and the cost is fractional of a winged car!


Cody, you know I fully agree with you on this post.

However, if rules are not followed and rules teched then the cycle will begin again. The cycle I am talking about is the one we all have seen over the years off starting a class off as a way to race cheap. In five years that class as became the class it was suppose to be a cheaper version of. It has happened with the 360's , the champs and so on.


"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands 
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he 
stands at times of challenge and controversy." 
Martin Luther King, Jr. 

Erich Petersen 



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