Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

18 of the top 20 qualifiers had to run the B. 
Inverts are a great idea when you can pass.

Track was narrow early on. It got better later in the day. It happens. Does it happen often? I would venture to say no, not at Knoxville.

Who got the worst of it? PPM was quicktime and wasn't able to get by anyone in his heat. However, he did move forward (just like Marks) in the A main and ended up 4th in points for the day.

As a Marks fan I was excited for him seeing who was in his heat race. The first heat was a murder's row by comparison. I thought he would have a legit chance to win heat #2, but was only able to manage getting from 8th to 5th.

All of the kids and new fans of the sport are on twitter howling about the format. It's great to be back to normal! 

I can say one thing with complete confidence - you sure don't want me in-charge of the format

Before this digresses into a format, uh, 'discussion': invert or no invert, has there ever been a time when 18 of the top 20 qualifiers - 90% - had to run the B ?

Time to bump up the invert to 6. We want to see the best cars and drivers in the A mains, not the B on qualifying nights. These cars are too even and locked down and the track is still too fast and narrow to have much passing in the heats. Every heat was led start to finish by whoever got the jump off the front row. Only 1 of the 8 row 4 starters made it up to 4th from their heat, and he was aided by a guy in front of him getting a flat. 18 of top 20 timers were in the B main. Do we need any more proof that the format needs tweeked? Prelim nights are becoming a joke.  It's 2022 not 1992, gotta roll with the changes.

A

Talk to the track crew and all the 'juiced up' 'Ohio lost the keys to it's water trucks' meme posting schmucks. 

What exactly is the invert format?  I was trying to follow along last night, and I heard Scotty Thiel won his heat race, but then had to start 19th in the A-Main?  I was trying to figure out what type of invert would cause that, and I have no clue.  I'd love to understand it before tonight though, because a couple drivers I cheer for run today.  Thanks to anyone who can educate me here. 

I am embarrassed to say I didn't know till last night that the top 16 in points is set after both qualifying nights. I knew points set the first eight rows.  With the knowledge I have gained, and knowledge can be dangerous right?

I would tweak how the top 16 is determined.   It should be 8 cars locked in Wednesday and 8 Thursday.  There are just to many variables that are different for each night.  From the obvious track conditions to possible strength of competition. 

I know the Outlaws don't run the nationals but they set the standard for sprint car formats, rules etc.  With the Outlaws being the example,  look how they split qualifying for normal weekly Outlaw shows because they have acknowledged that track conditions change.  

So how can the biggest race of the year not acknowledged the fact that track conditions and other variables change?

The teams points should be set on the night they race and the conditions and competition for that night.

This got me wondering what the most cars to qualify for top 16 from single night?

It's not often it turns out to be 8 from each night the way the points are or is it?

Also Fridays program puts  4 starting 21-24 thats always interesting .

Even with a 6 invert there's no way anyone from the top 10 last night in time trials was moving up. The track was narrow because they inexplicably did work on it after time trials and made it so much better on the low side. 

Also the other thing that no one is mentioning, that was a very pill draw dependent top 20 in time trials last night. Sawyer Phillips, McKenna Haase, Robbie Price, Josh Schneirdman, Ian Madsen (at least in that 2) are not "the fast cars" and wouldn't be moving up regardless of format. 

In order for any format other than straightup to work, you need a fair track for time trials where the guy going out 50th has at least a shot at a top 10 spot and you need a wide track for your heats. The much heralded Knoxville track crew was 0 for 2 last night. 

For preliminary nights (ignoring the points accumulated for Saturday):

Qualify based on pill draw

Top 40 times inverted over five heats (quick time starts 8th in heat 1, second quick 8th in heat two, and so on)

Heat races transfer Top 4 to A, 5-8 to B, 9-10 to C based specifically on heat race finish

A Main is lined up inverting the top 8 among the 20 cars who transferred directly through the heats. B Main is lined up straight up on cars that finished the heats in positions 5-8 straight up on qualifying time, hence PPM starting 1, Marks 2, Sanders 3 and so-on last night given a majority of the fastest qualifiers failed to transfer through their heats.

Thiel started 19th because he qualified 39th overall and had the second slowest qualifying time of cars who finished top 4 in the five heat races. Mark Dobmeier qualified 40th and also won his heat, thus taking the 20th starting spot by being one spot slower than Thiel.

I was waiting for someone to really bring up the format argument to point it out, but your second point is spot on. Somehow people are shocked and want to act like the format is the problem with the weaker cars that benefited from a top 20 pill draw can't pass Outlaw-caliber teams who were stuck in the back half of the qualifying lineup. 

Additionally, I know everyone wants to act like PPM or Marks got hosed, but if the track didn't fall off a cliff in qualifying, they aren't guaranteed top two spots.

Unfortunately regardless of it being the Nationals or any dirt race - there is inherently going to be an aspect of "luck" or situations the competitors cannot control that will inevitably benefit some and hurt others. The Nationals format does everything it can to combat that, and when you take a look at the starting lineup Saturday and see what the finish looks like, it should become clear again that the system just works to put the cream to the top.

Ok, so finishing top 4 in your heat gets you into the A-main, but where you will start in that A-main is determined by your qualifying time?  If that's accurate then I understand why heat winners are so far back.  In a regular night for WoO a heat win gaurantees you a spot in atleast the top 8 (or whatever number of cars start the dash) for the feature.  So for Knoxville it just reinforces the importance of qualifying well.  Not only does it get you points toward locking in for Saturday, but it also sets your starting spot in the A (assuming you finish top 4 in heat).  Ok I think I got it now.  Amazing that with all this inversion and unique format we always seem to end up with the best cars in the finale on Saturday (give or take a couple).  

Correct. Knoxville format has always incentivized being as fast as possible every time you touch the track. And that's why it's the premier sprint car event in the world, IMO head and shoulders above everything else. 

You beat me to it.  You have to fly to qualify.   It is the biggest sprint race of the year.  That is what makes the Nationals the Nationals!  

Do it the Smith Barney way and EARN it!!  

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

Horsecrap. Time trials are a waste,  guys that busted there tails and turned in a good lap then get a track in the heat race where it's hammer down by all and you play follow the leader. One guy probably loved that track.  Those guys understood they where going to get the short end of the stick and there wasn't a thing they could do about it. On a track like that the guy in front of you really has to screw up for you to get a run on him. It's why I personally hate time trials. Track crew missed last night, hopefully it gets better tonight.

Ah the yearly beat the format horse. Fact is come Saturday all the fast guys are in the A. Where is strawser he would have loved it last night, heavy fast hammerdown track with little passing. 

I already replied.  The feature was very good.   Schatz started 7th and was about to take the lead when a lapper got in his way.  

I like the format.  I don't think they should change a thing for Wednesday and Thursday nights.  It is the Nationals!

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

Garbage racing. Tony and Johnny hyping how amazing it was to have 17 of the 20 fastest qualifiers in the B was an embarrasment to themselves and insulting to me. All it means is that the track prep was shit and the cars have too much traction. 50 of the 51 cars could have won any heat if it started from the front row.

BS. on the 50 of the 51 cars could have won a heat.  I would take that bet and you would lose!! 

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!