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Topic: Shortening the Grove Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 3   of  57 replies
larsonfan
September 03, 2019 at 02:57:21 PM
Joined: 03/24/2013
Posts: 1445
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I see comments sometimes suggesting shortening Williams Grove. Though I don't have a dog in this hunt, I agree with those that say shorten it. That goes for any of the other big halfmiles like Selinsgrove, or even, gasp, Eldora. I'm in the camp of better racing on a bullring -  easier on equipment, less relaince on engine, more reliance on setup and driver ability.

So with that said - how would you shorten Williams Grove? Pull 3 and 4 in, thereby keeping the existing grandstands/flag stand, facilities, etc. Or pull 1 and 2 in...or both?

Keep the bridge? Move beer hill? Keep the frontstretch and backstretch where they are? Add more banking?

What would be the best final configuration? High banked third or quarter?

Finally, how much would it cost to do?

Fun to think about and envision. I'm sure there are the big fast half mile(+) purest out there who think I need an ass whooping for even sugesting this!




laudarevsonhunt
September 03, 2019 at 03:14:11 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 1116
Reply

Should have shortened Calistoga years ago.



Igo-Ono
September 03, 2019 at 04:12:50 PM
Joined: 12/14/2004
Posts: 133
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: laudarevsonhunt on September 03 2019 at 03:14:11 PM

Should have shortened Calistoga years ago.



I disagree. I can see sprint cars racing on quarter-mile or third-mile tracks every weekend. Calistoga is a special events track. And one of the things that makes the events stand out is the size and configuration of the track. There is nothing else like it on the West Coast. 

The situation with Williams Grove is different because that track runs on a weekly basis. 




MandGRacing96
September 03, 2019 at 04:42:41 PM
Joined: 01/19/2009
Posts: 583
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Igo-Ono on September 03 2019 at 04:12:50 PM

I disagree. I can see sprint cars racing on quarter-mile or third-mile tracks every weekend. Calistoga is a special events track. And one of the things that makes the events stand out is the size and configuration of the track. There is nothing else like it on the West Coast. 

The situation with Williams Grove is different because that track runs on a weekly basis. 



Yea since Stoga is a special event type of facility...leave it alone.  Man I always loved goin to that track.  



fiXXXer
September 03, 2019 at 05:40:28 PM
Joined: 10/26/2014
Posts: 2475
Reply

I've actually thought about this a lot since it's something that often comes up and in my opinion, I think if they were to shorten it, they should shorten to a small half mile and leave the paperclip configuration alone since that's what makes Williams Grove so unique. Move the pits outside (which would be a great idea regardless of whether or not they shorten it to make it more fan friendly and perhaps even a little safer by eliminating some openings) and bring turns 3 and 4 into about where backstretch pit entrance is now. That way all the bleachers, tunnel and other infrastructure could remain as is. You'd have a nice safe place for push trucks, tow trucks and emergency vehicles to be staged as well and the fans view from the infield would be a hell of a lot better. I would be 100% in favor of this. 



Nick14
September 03, 2019 at 05:53:12 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 1734
Reply

I don't mind the half miles as I like variety especially with the different types of tracks we have in Ohio. Places like Waynesfield, Attica, and even Lima (if they race bc of rain) usually have great races. But I also love Eldora & going to Knoxville and have seen great races there. That's what makes Ohio Speedweek great is that you get a variety of tracks & the car count. I think the thing that hurts Williams Grove & tracks like it is it hurts their competitors wallets having to upkeep the motor for how long the straights are with the narrow corners. 

If they were going to change it to help with the weekly racer costs it would probably be best to eliminate the bridge for safety, and shorten it to a 1/3 or3/8 mile. How it can be done & at what cost?? Probably harder than we think & more than we would know.




buzzkill
September 03, 2019 at 06:32:23 PM
Joined: 01/29/2005
Posts: 75
Reply

Disagree. Port has good racing. Pleanty of other issues with the Grove. 

Why not reconfigure Indy...etc.



yeleyfan76
September 03, 2019 at 06:34:52 PM
Joined: 09/08/2010
Posts: 21
Reply

I am in for shortening it. The big teams wanted more TT shows so that they didn’t have to work so hard to qualify and win features in the handicap format. Oh boy now the money teams start up front and only pass lapped cars. Shorten and widen the track. Prep it to ensure side by side racing not follow the leader and go back to handicapping. The reason why Pa racing was much better than other areas. Keith Kauffman explained in VL what a great run Danny Dietrich had on Friday but remembered that he used to do it from 16th starting spot. Imagine that. The racing has become more expensive and less exciting. Times have changed. The cars, motors, and tires have maxed out the potential of the big tracks. Tradition is a great thing until it diminishes what made it great to begin with. The cost to make the track changes are probably too expensive and no guarantee it works. Can’t always make the teams change things with new rules either. Sorta in a catch 22.

 



HoldenCaulfield
September 03, 2019 at 06:43:09 PM
Joined: 03/22/2008
Posts: 2434
Reply

I think it would be best to move turns 1-2 in because there is much more room out there to put the pits. It wouldn't affect the seating situation, only thing it would affect is the tunnel. If you moved 3-4 in, then it wouldn't be a very good view from beerhill or the turn 4 bleachers. I'm all for shortening those long drawn out straights.The only thing they do is string them out. I'd make it a 3/8-4/10. 1/4 miles are too small for sprints IMO. 1/3's are OK if they are wide and high-banked. Selinsgrove definitely needs to be smaller considering they run 360's and are having even more problems than WG drawing cars. Port's far and away the best 1/2 mile we have in central PA so leave that 1 alone. This is central PA though and a lot of fans love the big, old strung out horse tracks. There would be some fans who would be unhappy. I think they are crazy. Look at the highlights from Attica this past week. You don't see much back and forth, slicing and dicing like that at any central PA track, even Lincoln.  


A


sprintcarfanatic
September 03, 2019 at 06:54:50 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1065
Reply

With out reading everyone's comments & having been there 1 time I'd say 1 & 2 since it goe's way on out there after the grandstands !!!



lpjazz
September 03, 2019 at 08:31:36 PM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 155
Reply

There is no way I would support changing the size of the track.  Many points made about why it would make racing better and not enough about the things right now that have diminished the racing (so people have said) and no. 1 is lack of car owners with deep pockets.  Racing has always been expensive and yes it has become more and more expensive, but number of car owners is probably the biggest difference.  Lack of car owners means lack of available rides which means lack of drivers and therefore not as many quality drivers.   Central Pa still has some great drivers and some up and coming drivers, but it is not as deep as it once was and I believe it starts with fewer car owners.  Plus, you have many drivers who have left to race with the outlaws and the all-stars.

The big half mile paper clip is so unique.  Why do we need to make it a carbon copy of all of the other tracks?  I loved the old Sharon Speedway in Hartford, Ohio which was a great half mile track.  Not the paper clip variety, but big sweeping turns.  The new track, which I still visit is just not the same.  I would take the old track back in a second.  I will continue to support the track when I can, but I much prefer the old configuration.

It is great to toss around an idea, but remember once it is changed it is done and gone and it will probably not come back.  I have attended races at the Grove, Lincoln and Port Royal and all 3 have their own unique layout.  Keep them just the way they are so that you have 3 totally different tracks.  You can bad mouth the Grove for any number of things, but for an out of town racing fan who visits once maybe twice a year for the outlaw shows, there is nothing like the Grove.  If you are a local and go to the track often, maybe you have a different viewpoint.  



revjimk
September 03, 2019 at 10:25:51 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7594
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: fiXXXer on September 03 2019 at 05:40:28 PM

I've actually thought about this a lot since it's something that often comes up and in my opinion, I think if they were to shorten it, they should shorten to a small half mile and leave the paperclip configuration alone since that's what makes Williams Grove so unique. Move the pits outside (which would be a great idea regardless of whether or not they shorten it to make it more fan friendly and perhaps even a little safer by eliminating some openings) and bring turns 3 and 4 into about where backstretch pit entrance is now. That way all the bleachers, tunnel and other infrastructure could remain as is. You'd have a nice safe place for push trucks, tow trucks and emergency vehicles to be staged as well and the fans view from the infield would be a hell of a lot better. I would be 100% in favor of this. 



I have mixed feelings about shortening it. I prefer bullring racing myself, but I like the variety of big tracks too. One thing I totally agree with: " Move the pits outside (which would be a great idea regardless of whether or not they shorten it to make it more fan friendly"..... I've always been curious to meet some of the Beer Hill Gang, but you can't see half the track from there. I'm not driving 5 hours for that.....




oswald
September 04, 2019 at 12:57:48 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1982
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: larsonfan on September 03 2019 at 02:57:21 PM

I see comments sometimes suggesting shortening Williams Grove. Though I don't have a dog in this hunt, I agree with those that say shorten it. That goes for any of the other big halfmiles like Selinsgrove, or even, gasp, Eldora. I'm in the camp of better racing on a bullring -  easier on equipment, less relaince on engine, more reliance on setup and driver ability.

So with that said - how would you shorten Williams Grove? Pull 3 and 4 in, thereby keeping the existing grandstands/flag stand, facilities, etc. Or pull 1 and 2 in...or both?

Keep the bridge? Move beer hill? Keep the frontstretch and backstretch where they are? Add more banking?

What would be the best final configuration? High banked third or quarter?

Finally, how much would it cost to do?

Fun to think about and envision. I'm sure there are the big fast half mile(+) purest out there who think I need an ass whooping for even sugesting this!



Eldora, gasp, is NOT a big half mile. It is a 4/10ths mile.



turn4guy
September 04, 2019 at 03:56:24 AM
Joined: 04/23/2015
Posts: 881
Reply

Nobody's shortening the Grove. Nobodys shortening Eldora. The Grove needs to focus on track prep. Its gets plenty racey and wide every once in awhile.  They just need more consistency with it. Easier said than done though.  



DirtKing9
September 04, 2019 at 05:20:08 AM
Joined: 01/18/2017
Posts: 59
Reply

I would leave the size alone.  Definitely move the pits outside.  I would also like to see a combination of high dollar handicapped shows.  Also if they could find a way to increase the payout for the point fund (or bonus money for teams that run every event) that may help with car counts.  




larsonfan
September 04, 2019 at 05:28:39 AM
Joined: 03/24/2013
Posts: 1445
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: turn4guy on September 04 2019 at 03:56:24 AM

Nobody's shortening the Grove. Nobodys shortening Eldora. The Grove needs to focus on track prep. Its gets plenty racey and wide every once in awhile.  They just need more consistency with it. Easier said than done though.  



Never said they were.



frebyrd
September 04, 2019 at 06:32:57 AM
Joined: 07/07/2012
Posts: 90
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: larsonfan on September 04 2019 at 05:28:39 AM

Never said they were.



They are not gonna change Grove. I been going there since 1968, up to a few yrs ago seen alot of great racing there. What made Pa, racing so great over the yrs was the handicapping, top guy started 12th. It made for some great racing and many small teams won over the yrs because of handicapping. Seems them days are gone, Too many tt shows with big guys starting in front, rest are lapped traffic. Why would they wanna race there? And for those say handicapping can't work now days because too hard to pass, guess didn't see DD at Port mon on day time track.



bgtexpress
September 04, 2019 at 07:45:35 AM
Joined: 10/19/2016
Posts: 837
Reply

I have been going to Williams Grove since the early 80's. It is still my favorite track in terms of the atmosphere, tradition and history. I've seen some great races and I have seen some clunkers over the years,,,,,that being said, how as fans can we ask the owner to spend tons of money to change the track in hopes of getting 7 or 8 more cars? It isn't happening. It doesn't make sense economically. Enjoy what we have, because many of these tracks will not be around unless we support them.




SAF92
September 04, 2019 at 08:42:35 AM
Joined: 01/24/2018
Posts: 386
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: oswald on September 04 2019 at 12:57:48 AM

Eldora, gasp, is NOT a big half mile. It is a 4/10ths mile.



0.45 mile



MandGRacing96
September 04, 2019 at 09:17:27 AM
Joined: 01/19/2009
Posts: 583
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: SAF92 on September 04 2019 at 08:42:35 AM

0.45 mile



Did someone say, earlier, that 1/4 miles are too small for sprints??  If someone thinks that, they've never seen a good sprint car show on a 1/4 mile.  JMO of course

 





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