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Topic: crockett disqualified????? Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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mikl
May 27, 2008 at 12:06:17 AM
Joined: 12/03/2004
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Barnes Bags Inaugural ASCS Northwest Win at Grays Harbor

Lonnie Wheatley, ELMA, Wash. (May 24, 2008) – Jayme Barnes etched his name into the American Sprint Car Series record books by winning the inaugural ASCS Northwest Region feature event Saturday night at Grays Harbor Raceway Park.

 

Barnes fought off Henry VanDam early in the 30-lapper and went on to capture the win by a 1.086-second margin over VanDam, with Jonathan Allard claiming show honors.

 

Seth Bergman was fourth, with Glenn Borden, Jr., rounding out the top five. Brandon Boyce, Jared Peterson, Jay Cole, Rob Held and 17th-starter Jared Ridge completed the top ten.

 

Crockett, Barnes, Bergman and Allard topped heat race action for the 28-car field, with Jared Ridge winning the 12-lap "B" Main.]

 

Roger Crockett crossed the stripe third in the feature event but was disqualified following post-race inspection.

 

ASCS Northwest Region Results from Grays Harbor Raceway Park:

 

Heat One (10 Laps): 1. 7n-Roger Crockett, 2. 33v-Henry VanDam, 3. 10-Kyle Miller, 4. 7-J.J. Hickle, 5. 76-Shawn Rice, 6. 12-Jared Ridge, 7. 4c-Charlie Cash.

 

Heat Two (10 Laps): 1. 9-Jayme Barnes, 2. 9p-Jared Peterson, 3. 65-Brandon Boyce, 4. 0J-Jay Cole, 5. 98m-Mitch Olson, 6. 9J-J.J. Dishneau. DNS: 11-Shane Broers.

 

Heat Three (10 Laps): 1. 23-Seth Bergman, 2. 68-Rob Held, 3. 25c-Chad Groves, 4. 2-Mike Melmicks, 5. 26F-Shane Forte, 6. 57c-Chris Schmelzle, 7. 51-John Farrell.

 

Heat Four (10 Laps): 1. 1-Jonathan Allard, 2. 72-Glenn Borden, Jr., 3. 12p-Randy Pierce, 4. 2z-Todd Zeitlen, 5. 4-Brock Lemley, 6. 19-T.J. Hartman, 7. 66-Kelley Mayer.

 

"B" Feature (12 Laps): 1. 12-Jared Ridge, 2. 4-Brock Lemley, 3. 76-Shawn Rice, 4. 98m-Mitch Olson, 5. 4c-Charlie Cash, 6. 26F-Shane Forte, 7. 9J-J.J. Dishneau, 8. 19-T.J. Hartman, 9. 51-John Farrell, 10. 66-Kelley Mayer. DNS: 57c-Chris Schmelzle, 11-Shane Broers.

 

“A” Feature (30 Laps): 1. 9-Jayme Barnes, 2. 33v-Henry VanDam, 3. 1-Jonathan Allard, 4. 23-Seth Bergman, 5. 72-Glenn Borden, Jr., 6. 65-Brandon Boyce, 7. 9p-Jared Peterson, 8. 0J-Jay Cole, 9. 68-Rob Held, 10. 12-Jared Ridge, 11. 12p-Randy Pierce, 12. 25c-Chad Groves, 13. 2-Mike Melmicks, 14. 2z-Todd Zeitlen, 15. 76-Shawn Rice, 16. 4-Brock Lemley, 17. 98m-Mitch Olson, 18. 10-Kyle Miller, 19. 7-J.J. Hickle. Disqualified: 7n-Roger Crockett

 

ASCS Northwest Region Points (Top Ten): 1. Jayme Barnes 150, 2. Henry VanDam 146, 3. Jonathan Allard 144, 4. Seth Bergman 142, 5. Glenn Borden, Jr. 140, 6. Brandon Boyce 138, 7. Jared Peterson 136, 8. Jay Cole 134, 9. Rob Held 132, 10. Jared Ridge 130.




dirtracer84
May 27, 2008 at 09:51:43 PM
Joined: 09/24/2007
Posts: 324
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Anyone happen to know what Crockets dq issues were about? Was it the stacks again, like Higday, or something else? There seems to be alot of this happening so far this year.



Racer41
May 28, 2008 at 04:00:31 AM
Joined: 12/03/2004
Posts: 226
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heads similar to swensons i believe.




jackhole22
MyWebsite
May 28, 2008 at 04:53:09 AM
Joined: 01/14/2006
Posts: 1347
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They really need to start making press releases saying why people are DQed.

1 It tells the other drivers, teams and fans without false rumors.

2 I tells teams what maybe they are doing wrong and did not see in there own setup.

3 Fans pay for the seat, show and the purse

4 It shows the fans and teams what other teams are doing and who is doing it

No reason why DQ's can't be explained to the fans or other teams. In most states if you get arrested your name goes in the paper with a full story as to why. Same should be for drivers to the fans and teams.


-----------------------------------------------------
A healthy diet of dirt in my nachos and beer.

dirtracer84
May 28, 2008 at 11:32:48 PM
Joined: 09/24/2007
Posts: 324
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Reply to:
Posted By: Racer41 on May 28 2008 at 04:00:31 AM

heads similar to swensons i believe.



What does that mean? I have read quite a bit about Higday's deal from this past weekend, just havn't heard much about Crockets. Does ASCS have anything to say about it?



team wright-one
MyWebsite
May 29, 2008 at 12:41:37 AM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Posted By: Racer41 on May 28 2008 at 04:00:31 AM

heads similar to swensons i believe.



are we talking acid porting? i am not understanding you just as someone else stated. thanks.




jmcmx16
May 29, 2008 at 10:51:06 AM
Joined: 08/26/2005
Posts: 31
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from what i understood, ASCS has a new way to tech, this proved the heads to be illegal. They were legal before this new tech method. I get the feeling that there are others with the same issue..



team wright-one
MyWebsite
May 29, 2008 at 01:43:05 PM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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This message was edited on May 29, 2008 at 01:51:03 PM by team wright-one
Reply to:
Posted By: jmcmx16 on May 29 2008 at 10:51:06 AM

from what i understood, ASCS has a new way to tech, this proved the heads to be illegal. They were legal before this new tech method. I get the feeling that there are others with the same issue..



seems to me that if they are going to make an alteration that would put the legality of something like that into question that they would inform teams and motor builders and give them a chance to verify they are going to be legal under new new tech specs and give them a time frame to comply within. i do not know if this was done. kind of hard to say you were legal last week but now you are not if you know what i mean. if the rules state how the tech will be done and what will cause something to be legal vs. illegal then the manner of doing tech changes or the tech specs change i think that would be something that would need to be known. we all have been conversing on ways to try to make racing less expensive. for teams to have to invest in parts to comply to new tech specs is not one of them. i know there will be those who say that those with now illegal parts should maybe have not pushed the envelope so much. i say to that, it they followed the prior tech paramiters and found something that fell out side the paramiters, then that is racing.



racerguy6n
May 29, 2008 at 02:32:44 PM
Joined: 12/11/2004
Posts: 129
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Posted By: team wright-one on May 29 2008 at 01:43:05 PM

seems to me that if they are going to make an alteration that would put the legality of something like that into question that they would inform teams and motor builders and give them a chance to verify they are going to be legal under new new tech specs and give them a time frame to comply within. i do not know if this was done. kind of hard to say you were legal last week but now you are not if you know what i mean. if the rules state how the tech will be done and what will cause something to be legal vs. illegal then the manner of doing tech changes or the tech specs change i think that would be something that would need to be known. we all have been conversing on ways to try to make racing less expensive. for teams to have to invest in parts to comply to new tech specs is not one of them. i know there will be those who say that those with now illegal parts should maybe have not pushed the envelope so much. i say to that, it they followed the prior tech paramiters and found something that fell out side the paramiters, then that is racing.



Nobody said anything about new tech specs, just a better way of teching without removing the injection first. The technical rules have not changed. The rules are very clear as to what you can and cannot do. Passing tech one week means just that, you got through tech. It absolutely does not mean that everything on your car was checked and you have an automatic legal pass from here on out. No way should they list every detail on how they are going to check before they do it. That's like saying here is what we are going to do, now go try to find a way around it. The rules clearly state what you can and cannot do. Again, the specs haven't changed, they are just getting smarter on how they are checking. Guys used to gamble that tech officials wouldn't be able to see enough to warrant pulling the intake, now many are getting burned.




team wright-one
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May 29, 2008 at 05:02:51 PM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Posted By: racerguy6n on May 29 2008 at 02:32:44 PM

Nobody said anything about new tech specs, just a better way of teching without removing the injection first. The technical rules have not changed. The rules are very clear as to what you can and cannot do. Passing tech one week means just that, you got through tech. It absolutely does not mean that everything on your car was checked and you have an automatic legal pass from here on out. No way should they list every detail on how they are going to check before they do it. That's like saying here is what we are going to do, now go try to find a way around it. The rules clearly state what you can and cannot do. Again, the specs haven't changed, they are just getting smarter on how they are checking. Guys used to gamble that tech officials wouldn't be able to see enough to warrant pulling the intake, now many are getting burned.



not trying to be a jerk here, just following a point. without anyone being specific on just what the problem was and all it is hard to really understand. here is what i am saying. if you tell someone that something has to be a certain way when checked in a certain manner, then change the manner in which it is checked, the spec has changed. like i said, i do not know all the particular details. i am saying that for instance if you tell some one that the angle of the head had to be a certain degree, and this is the way we are going to check to see if that degree is correct, and a person follows those rules and the rule is the changed by altering the way the head is measured, the tech has been changed and folks need to know that.



Wngsprnt50
May 29, 2008 at 08:25:09 PM
Joined: 06/04/2007
Posts: 41
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There was never anything laid out about how they were going to check to see if your ports on your set of SPEC heads were messed with or not. The rule was simple.....don't mess with the heads. ASCS has gotten smarter and better about their tech and has come up with ways to find things that have ALWAYS been illegal, just very hard to find without actually removing the injection. If someone decided to stop marking a RR tire with a white paint stick and switch to yellow, and one team marked their "marked" feature tire with white instead and was caught, its still illegal. The bad thing here is that they have to do this stuff at all. This DQ is not the first, but certainly wont be the last of the year either.



ascsnw
May 29, 2008 at 09:42:22 PM
Joined: 05/29/2008
Posts: 9
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Reply to:
Posted By: dirtracer84 on May 27 2008 at 09:51:43 PM

Anyone happen to know what Crockets dq issues were about? Was it the stacks again, like Higday, or something else? There seems to be alot of this happening so far this year.



Do you think front wings were checked?



d) Maximum distance from the Center Foil front edge to the front edge of the front axle may not exceed 20 inches.

e) The Center Foil front edge must remain at least 1 inch behind the front edge of the front bumper. Center Foil top surface from side to side must remain flat.




racerguy6n
May 29, 2008 at 10:14:17 PM
Joined: 12/11/2004
Posts: 129
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Reply to:
Posted By: team wright-one on May 29 2008 at 05:02:51 PM

not trying to be a jerk here, just following a point. without anyone being specific on just what the problem was and all it is hard to really understand. here is what i am saying. if you tell someone that something has to be a certain way when checked in a certain manner, then change the manner in which it is checked, the spec has changed. like i said, i do not know all the particular details. i am saying that for instance if you tell some one that the angle of the head had to be a certain degree, and this is the way we are going to check to see if that degree is correct, and a person follows those rules and the rule is the changed by altering the way the head is measured, the tech has been changed and folks need to know that.



I understand what you are saying, however, your point is valid only if you are checking something that can variably change by checking it differently. With the head rule, it is clear:

Absolutely no intake or exhaust port relocation, raising, enlargement or reshaping of any type. Valve angle and placement may not be altered in any way on the ASCS spec head or on any other head. ASCS checking fixtures to check the above specifications and dimensions will be used.

It doesn't matter if they check it with a flashlight, a scope, a measuring tool with the injector on, dial calipers, or the go/no go guage with the injection off. If it has been altered, it's illegal. If a guy has a way to alter the ports and make it impossible to detect with the injection on, then a new tool comes out that can detect it, it doesn't mean the spec has changed. It just means that they can more easily catch them.

Same thing with the valve angle that you reference. Either it is right or it isn't. there are multiple ways to check it, and there has to be as guys are very creative. ex: one tool references off of a certain surface, and another tool checks to make sure you haven't altered that surface to make it appear all is well. It is very easy to make certain your valve angle is correct, don't change it!

If you simply tell everyone exactly what tools and how you are going to check, they will no doubt find a way to alter whatever they can, while still passing tech with those tools. Does that make them legal? No, it just means they found a way around your tools.

It's not like these rules such to where you take a few measurements and if you check a different way you may get a different measurement. For rules such as wings, where it can be measured differently, it states where and how to measure.

 

 

 



dirtracer84
May 29, 2008 at 11:05:36 PM
Joined: 09/24/2007
Posts: 324
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Is there any punishment to violaters? There must not be, as Crocket raced the next night an another ASCS show. What, if any, has happened to any other violaters in the past? I think ASCS is the premier 360 orginization in the country, so I would assume they have a pretty good handle on this situation.



dirtdevil
May 29, 2008 at 11:43:49 PM
Joined: 09/30/2005
Posts: 1387
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These altered heads have been around for some time, I strongly believe ASCS proubly knew all about the tricks a few years ago , hind site is, what are you going to do? DQ the top three cars? I belive ASCS has adapted a way to grandfather in the "new " tech approach to the porting issue, Now we see "non ASCS legal" heads popping up everywhere for sale, and the ever popular "im selling these for a friend ". trouble is, if you ever got beat or passed by horsepower you joined into the insanity of bending the rules, Its only illegal when you get caught right? who hasnt heard that one before, ASCS got caught with thier pants down on the porting issue , now once they have regained control of tighter tech inspection, the illegal parts have diminished, its just a matter of time untill somebody crafty finds another opening in the fence .




team wright-one
MyWebsite
May 30, 2008 at 02:01:31 AM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Reply to:
Posted By: racerguy6n on May 29 2008 at 10:14:17 PM

I understand what you are saying, however, your point is valid only if you are checking something that can variably change by checking it differently. With the head rule, it is clear:

Absolutely no intake or exhaust port relocation, raising, enlargement or reshaping of any type. Valve angle and placement may not be altered in any way on the ASCS spec head or on any other head. ASCS checking fixtures to check the above specifications and dimensions will be used.

It doesn't matter if they check it with a flashlight, a scope, a measuring tool with the injector on, dial calipers, or the go/no go guage with the injection off. If it has been altered, it's illegal. If a guy has a way to alter the ports and make it impossible to detect with the injection on, then a new tool comes out that can detect it, it doesn't mean the spec has changed. It just means that they can more easily catch them.

Same thing with the valve angle that you reference. Either it is right or it isn't. there are multiple ways to check it, and there has to be as guys are very creative. ex: one tool references off of a certain surface, and another tool checks to make sure you haven't altered that surface to make it appear all is well. It is very easy to make certain your valve angle is correct, don't change it!

If you simply tell everyone exactly what tools and how you are going to check, they will no doubt find a way to alter whatever they can, while still passing tech with those tools. Does that make them legal? No, it just means they found a way around your tools.

It's not like these rules such to where you take a few measurements and if you check a different way you may get a different measurement. For rules such as wings, where it can be measured differently, it states where and how to measure.

 

 

 



again i am not trying to be difficult and i do understand your point. as stated before i had no knowlege of just what the exact details of the DQ were. with that said you have inadvertantly substantiated my point pertaining to the idea that if they tell you it has to be a certain way, and will be checked in a certain manner, you then know how to check your stuff to know if it will be legal.

here is what you had in your post: ASCS checking fixtures to check the above specifications and dimensions will be used. seems to me they told folks that to be legal all they had to do was get past the fixtures that were used to check the specs. and i am sure exactly what those fixtures were was common knowlege. now if they changed the way they teched, or altered the fixtures or the type of fixture, then the spec has changed. and by spec i mean the specifications used to determine legality. the specifications seemed to have been conforming to the fixtures used. now if they changed the method of checking, they have changed the specifications used to determine legality. if they tell you that you have to be legal useing these tools, then change the tools, they have altered their tech specifications.

 

also: If you simply tell everyone exactly what tools and how you are going to check, they will no doubt find a way to alter whatever they can, while still passing tech with those tools. Does that make them legal? No, it just means they found a way around your tools EXACTLY CORRECT! but if you are told what the tools are that will be used (and by what you have posted teams were and it has been an accepted way of doing things) and you follow that procedure to check yourself, or your motor builder follows preset guidelines while building your motor, and then the guidlines change....well. i will go further. if say you were told that you had to have no more than a 2 inch hole for something and this is the fixture we are going to use and that fixture is a tape measure. all you have to do is be 2 inches as measured by the tape. but if they then change to useing dial calipers as the fixture they have changed the specifications that determine legality. you may have been legal with the tape. you may not be with the calipers. but they told you all you had to do was be legal with the tape.

as you can tell i am a racer that, just like all of us, tries to get the most out of any rule!! if everyone would have been aware that new techniques would be involved in tech, (and maybe they were, i really do not know) and that what was once considered legal or had passed before would now have the potential of being found illegal then i would say they had been warned. again as i have stated i really have no first hand knowlege of this incident or wtf is or was going on. just putting this all out for the sake of it! lol. so please do not be offended or take what i am saying as argumentitive.Smile



racerguy6n
May 30, 2008 at 07:34:40 AM
Joined: 12/11/2004
Posts: 129
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Reply to:
Posted By: team wright-one on May 30 2008 at 02:01:31 AM

again i am not trying to be difficult and i do understand your point. as stated before i had no knowlege of just what the exact details of the DQ were. with that said you have inadvertantly substantiated my point pertaining to the idea that if they tell you it has to be a certain way, and will be checked in a certain manner, you then know how to check your stuff to know if it will be legal.

here is what you had in your post: ASCS checking fixtures to check the above specifications and dimensions will be used. seems to me they told folks that to be legal all they had to do was get past the fixtures that were used to check the specs. and i am sure exactly what those fixtures were was common knowlege. now if they changed the way they teched, or altered the fixtures or the type of fixture, then the spec has changed. and by spec i mean the specifications used to determine legality. the specifications seemed to have been conforming to the fixtures used. now if they changed the method of checking, they have changed the specifications used to determine legality. if they tell you that you have to be legal useing these tools, then change the tools, they have altered their tech specifications.

 

also: If you simply tell everyone exactly what tools and how you are going to check, they will no doubt find a way to alter whatever they can, while still passing tech with those tools. Does that make them legal? No, it just means they found a way around your tools EXACTLY CORRECT! but if you are told what the tools are that will be used (and by what you have posted teams were and it has been an accepted way of doing things) and you follow that procedure to check yourself, or your motor builder follows preset guidelines while building your motor, and then the guidlines change....well. i will go further. if say you were told that you had to have no more than a 2 inch hole for something and this is the fixture we are going to use and that fixture is a tape measure. all you have to do is be 2 inches as measured by the tape. but if they then change to useing dial calipers as the fixture they have changed the specifications that determine legality. you may have been legal with the tape. you may not be with the calipers. but they told you all you had to do was be legal with the tape.

as you can tell i am a racer that, just like all of us, tries to get the most out of any rule!! if everyone would have been aware that new techniques would be involved in tech, (and maybe they were, i really do not know) and that what was once considered legal or had passed before would now have the potential of being found illegal then i would say they had been warned. again as i have stated i really have no first hand knowlege of this incident or wtf is or was going on. just putting this all out for the sake of it! lol. so please do not be offended or take what i am saying as argumentitive.Smile



In a very round about way, we agree. My view on the spec is, if it is a "don't alter it" rule, then don't touch it, it's that simple. It's not "go ahead and re-port them and then we'll check your work".

Most of the recent dq's are a result of better being able to check the ports with the injection on. Trust me, the guys that are illegal know damn well they are, they have just been counting on the fact that the tech officials won't see enough to make them pull the injection. It's not a matter of new tool dimensions, it's a matter of being able to get the tools down the injection to see if it needs to come off. Once they determine if there is probable cause and the injection is pulled, it is the same tools they've always used that are determining the legality.

As far as a 2" hole theory, the only machining you can do in the intake ports is blend the first 3/4 inch. nobody is splitting hairs on if it is .750 or .758. they are dealing with the part of the head that cannot be touched in any way whatsoever. So if you can't touch it, then it shouldn't matter how many tools they come up with to check that, it should never be altered.

 

 



Wesmar
May 30, 2008 at 08:37:36 AM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 626
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That 76 car looks pretty cool, who is it? The 2z car on the outside looks like it might be cool looking, who is it and does somebody have another pic of it?

BTW, sorry to hi-jack the thread. Pretty interesting subject.




stoga
May 30, 2008 at 10:36:24 AM
Joined: 02/28/2008
Posts: 128
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Hi jacker! LOL. The 76 looks like a Jerry Day car. Used to come down to Calistoga back in the days of N.A.R.C. I see R.A.M. race cars across the hood. I believe Jerry built cars of his own design.



team wright-one
MyWebsite
May 30, 2008 at 10:47:30 AM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Reply to:
Posted By: racerguy6n on May 30 2008 at 07:34:40 AM

In a very round about way, we agree. My view on the spec is, if it is a "don't alter it" rule, then don't touch it, it's that simple. It's not "go ahead and re-port them and then we'll check your work".

Most of the recent dq's are a result of better being able to check the ports with the injection on. Trust me, the guys that are illegal know damn well they are, they have just been counting on the fact that the tech officials won't see enough to make them pull the injection. It's not a matter of new tool dimensions, it's a matter of being able to get the tools down the injection to see if it needs to come off. Once they determine if there is probable cause and the injection is pulled, it is the same tools they've always used that are determining the legality.

As far as a 2" hole theory, the only machining you can do in the intake ports is blend the first 3/4 inch. nobody is splitting hairs on if it is .750 or .758. they are dealing with the part of the head that cannot be touched in any way whatsoever. So if you can't touch it, then it shouldn't matter how many tools they come up with to check that, it should never be altered.

 

 



lol. nice to know we can see each others point. i do in fact understand the "you can't alter it deal". also the part about the tech guys not being able to tech something they can't see. as said, i knew i did not have all the info needed to make informed comments, but i never let a thing like that stop me!





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