Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Just like to know what other Pa fans think. I miss the handicapping shows where top guy starts 12th, I hate time trial shows,I quit going to more than 2 div shows,hate shows that drag on, but when rain coming they can run a show fast. When track post a time, then don't start at that time. Just curious what other fans think. THANK YOU. ps. please just not smart ass answers, I know POSSE not near what it use to be, Would just like to know what other fans like. THANK YOU ps, going since 1968 I sure no hater.

I liked big inversions in the old days, not sure how it would work out now. But I'd be willing to check it out. Trouble is, I have a 5 hr. drive to Pa. tracks, so I only go to big events, which always have Time Trials

Weekly races up to few yrs ago here. top guy started 12th, made great racing. under dogs won some. Those days gone

Yep those years over. Glad to see that stuff when it was real

I've only been to a regular weekly WG show once, when i happened to be in the area Friday nite (hit the Grove at EXACTLY 7PM after driving from Colorado, a few years ago) Not much attendance, kind of disappointing (but a GREAT break from the road!). I don't even remember if it was inverted....

Do you recall what year they stopped inversions?

I flew to Tulare, California a few years back too, for Trophy Cup, specifically because of full inversion in a big race, like the good ole days

It was fun, only gripe was way too many yellows, really rough track. Cars were even wrecking on hot laps, repeatedly

It's a shame really. Williams Grove used to be the place to be on Friday night, excellent fields that included everybody who was anybody in central PA with big crowds and and a festive atmosphere every week. The weekly shows now are a shell of what they were a few years ago. My favorite era was back in the mid to late 90's with drivers like Rahmer, Dewease, Kreitz, Pauch, Shaffer, Gobrecht, Shepard, Hodnett all in their prime and big time rides like the  Hamilton 77, Dyer 461, Zemco 1, Beam 88, Harz 88h, Apple 12, Midddleswarth 7, Weikert 29. Those were the days. I miss them and I miss points handicapping although I understand why it needed to go.

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The grove is tough as it is. I really think this year has been the most boring due to the fast cars starting right up front. would love to see the top 12 in points inverted. bring back some passing

Lincoln Speedway still does the inverion format

Don't think back to 12th anymore. Last yr if they passed cars in heats they started on up closer. I could be wrong.

Lincoln handicaps 3 from each heat instead of 4, so that's an invert of 9.  Last week's winner starts no better than 9th. I have no problem with that.  

Heat starts are by draw.  No more double handicapping.  I'm ok with that.

Don't like the time trials, prefer handicap races. 

Lincoln starts on time unless someone wrecks in hot laps.  

I don't have a problem with time trials.  I'd rather see the fastest car win than somebody who got lucky in a redraw or inversion.  All this conversation about changing formats reminds me of what has hurt NASCAR.  I happen to like the playoffs but also can understand the long time fans who got sick of all the changes.  Not every race is going to be great and not every season is going to create a great points battle.  At the end of the day you're still at the race track and it's still awesome.

I also get tired of all the track prep conversation.  I would imagine there was a day where there was no such thing and you just showed up and raced.  If speeds were getting dangerous at Port Royal on Friday then I would agree with anything that could be done to make things safer. 

There was another post about the cars potentially being too fast for what they race on.  That has to be a factor for lack of passing and more of a concern for me when it comes to safety.  No drivers got hurt but we lost a spectator, had a tire go through a house, and injured 2 top PA drivers which set back their teams quite a bit.  These guys are risking their lives every time they show up at the race track.  I realize racing is dangerous...but you wonder how many of them are starting to question whether it's really worth the risk.

Sounds good to me.... never been to a Lincoln weekly race either, just drive down for big events

I'm sorry, but here we are again on this same argument.  What is the obsession with handicapping a show so the underdogs can win again?  I'm good with 4 car inversions in heats or 8 car inversions (heats and feature) on qualifying night of Nationals, but a 12 car inversion on weekly show for the feature?  I'm not understanding how that is beneficial in today's world.  

My economics teacher's quote about the US workforce would apply here:  "we are in a race to the bottom."  

Folks are still in the ”if you build it they will come” mindset. So if you handicap, the “fast” cars will have to pass. This of course ignores the last 10 years or more of data which suggests there are often 10-15 cars capable of winning on a weekly basis at some tracks and sometimes 20 at a WoO race and all handicapping will do is reward the pole sitter. 

But folks can dream. 

Yet another thread centered around inverting or handicaping fields because back 20 or so years ago the winner came from 8th or worst. Those things happened back in 1969, 1979, 1989, 1999, maybe even a little in 2009 but its 2019 almost 2020. The field of cars from top qualifier to last place are not seperated as much as they used to be because of equipment and driver knowledge now.

1 thing that I still find odd is how around the 2012, 13, and 14 season people on here and on social media talked about front row winners with the Outlaws. It was almost like there were no front row winners during ordinary local weekly shows as well which there were. At the same time the Outlaws would go out to California, Midwest, Ohio, and PA and whenever a "local" would win someone from that area would go "Outlaws can't beat California" or "Outlaws can't beat PA" etc. Nevermind the fact that you would look at the qualifying results and most of the time the Outlaws would sweep the Top 5 a lot of the time but through the magic of inverting local racers would start on the front row of heat races, get about 4-6 guys in the dash, start up front, lead all the laps win the feature then everyone would start the chest pounding. Then when the Outlaws would do it the discussion was well the Outlaws made the track prep the track a certain way and everything was locked down, or bash the driver for doing the same the local guy did in the previous scenairo. You add into the whole talk of at the time they only had about 7-9 drivers traveling full time, people were like who needs the Outlaws to come blah blah blah, I can see why the current situation is adventagous.

1 it doesn't handicap a person for being fast. 2 it is for a series where people that are trying to do this for a living and provide for families and have made many sacrifices in order to do this so they should not be penalized for being good. Nor should there be a risk of losing prize money for starting 8th-12th because you were a fast car in qualifying and not being able to pass cars that are only maybe a tenth or less slower than you in 30 laps. And 3 it has produced good racing and more competition as 3 drivers have 10 or more wins with another winning 8, plus the points battle is close. I prefer all professional sports or competitions to not be handicapped in any manner. Imagine in the NFL, NHL, NBA, or MLB if the better team was required to spot the worst team a few scores just so the game would be more exciting and go down to the end.

Lincoln does not do a draw for their weekly 410 show. Lincoln starts 410 heats based on point average (note its not point total) with a total invert. Thus, Monteith, Krimes, Rahmer, Trout are in the rear each week. 358 heats are set based upon the draw. I'm not at Lincoln every week but over the course of the season I'm there more than any other Sat track. Personally I'd like to see something different with the 410s. You go there each week with the same slower cars up front for the heat races. The guys at the back are scratching and clawing to get forward and yes, I get it, for some that's the whole appeal.  Usually in the heats the track is fast and often narrow making it harder to pass so some of those guys that started up front will be able to stay at the front to make the invert. At some point during the heats you'll hear Wayne announce how so and so just won his fifth heat race of the year but yet this same guy is never a factor come feature time. He can win heat races because he's always starting at the front and track conditions are helping him out. Moving forward to the feature, the track is usually starting to slick off. Now is when the real fun starts. That group of guys that start in front of the heat races and is now in the front of the feature can't back up fast enough and you just hope that as they are backing up, they hold their line so they aren't tearing up their car and probably collecting someone else in the process. My bigger point here is to some degree the show and in particular the heats look the same every week.  Same cars in the front, same cars in the back. Very little variety here. Gets ho hum after awhile.  I'm ok with handicapping to an extent but a full field invert for heat races is too much. You shouldn't get to start in the front of the heat every week because you're 24th in point average.  I'm all for seeing good racing but I also look at it from the perspective of the racer and it just seems there has to be a better, fairer way of doing it. 

If you read my orginal post . i didn't say a word about Woo. I was talking about weekly racing in PA. That why it said POLL FOR PA FANS!!! So imagine weekly shows in PA every week with Lance and DD on pole. WOW. Stands be empty in a few weeks.Guess some fans don't care for passing. Maybe i just TO OLD!! haha

Wow ! Some people are starting to understand racing .

I did read your original post which follows the same common theme about either the Outlaw Format or just non/lower "handicapped" formats as there are now across all weekly tracks. Plus you posted on a board in which people all across the country can read so we are all allowed to post too as its a discussion board. People outside of PA have gone to weekly races throughout the years and can add to the discussion. It doesn't matter the area in which you live, it does not change the fact that it is 2019 almost 2020 and things cannot be done with the same effect as they were in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Lance & DD have started on the pole the past couple of years and have won races & probably have been beaten as well, people still show up. I am sure back in 19** there were still races that had the winner come from the first couple of rows and people still showed up. Some fans care about racing and competition. As Tony said in an interview once "if you want passing you can go out on the Interstate and see all the passing you want" and see if that is more exciting than the racing going on now. But yes you could be just too old with the back in the day nostalgic theme in which nothing can ever beat the way you saw things when you were younger like a lot of older people do these days, even though a lot of people have no problem with the way things are now haha.