Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

What year was it he last had a car on the WoO trail? He should come back out if for no other reason but to train a new crop of crew guys

2005 I believe 

I may be mistaken, but I believe Karl is 80 years old.  Not many people would want to go through the kind of schedule they keep at 60 let alone 80.  After traveling all of those years and working your tailoff, what would be left for him to prove.  He has won everything and according to the open red podcasts, (Episode 75 Kale Kahne), he has been an influence on many of the current crew chiefs.  Besides, I think the crew chiefs out on the circuit right now are as good as it gets whether they have worked for Karl or not.  Do you think there is a lack of quality crew chiefs at this time?

Alot of people think Karl was a big money team.  He was not.  He was a budget racer.  He never spent a dime on anything unless it would make his car better.  I remember once when they showed sprint cars on TV that he  had blown up his last engine and he was calling to places like Gaerte to find a engine to borow.  He never found one.  Look up some of Karls pictures from the 1970 s .  Todays worst 305 team would have a nicer looking car.  I saw times when it was just Karl and Steve with the car, and they did not always see eye to eye.  Karl worked his ass off to go fast.  Sponsors come and go, at times he had good sponsors and other times not.  I do not think Karl would kiss anyones butt to get sonsorship.  I would say Karl is a common every day man rhat was a genius around sprint cars.  There will never be another Karl Kinser.

When we first had the Outlaws at Winnipeg Speedway years ago Karl worked all night with us prepping track..He'd put a screwdriver in track to see where the water was..He mentioned Powder soap to keep the dust down which worked very well..He was a character even back then..And you say frugal, he sure was..

I don't know Karl Kinser and really have nothing to add.  But there are countless debates about who the GOAT of any sport is, who's the better quarterback, Johnny Unitas or Tom Brady?  My opinion is, they were lucky to be doing what they were doing, WHEN they were doing it.  Could Tom Brady have really succeeded in Johnny Unitas's era and likewise would Johnny Unitas be successful in today's NFL?  Nobody knows but my hunch is no to both of them.  Likewise even if age wasn't an issue with Karl Kinser, I wonder how successful he would be today.  He brought a lot of innovations to sprint car racing, a lot of his success was building something nobody else had.  Today that's harder if not impossible to do.  Just to be clear I'm not saying that Karl Kinser only won because his cars were superior, but he did win a lot of them because of that.  What I'm saying is Karl Kinser was lucky to be a car owner/crew cheif when he was.

I think I understand what you are saying, and I agree if my interpretation is correct.  You are saying his innovative thinking, and penny-pinching worked because he was doing it in the right era, correct?  I would agree with that assessment.  I have not witnessed it first hand, but have heard many of the stories.  If we are comparing Karl's teams of the 70's, 80's and 90's, to today's elite teams, it's too tough to do because you could be more experimental and innovative back in those decades than today.  The cars are very equal and it seems throwing money at the teams is the best way to achieve speed now.   

I do like the NFL reference as well.  I had stated on an earlier post, as  huge Bear's fan, I love to watch videos on Dick Butkus----and I consider him one of the greatest of all time.  However, there are 100's of "machines" on the NFL field today that would wipe the turf with Butkus!  He played in an era where they took the spring and summer off to work other jobs, drink every night, and most smoked a pack a day!  Today's NFL linebacker is built like a robotic killing machine compared to the 60's.  

So, hardon, I am pretty sure I get your point

What Karl brought to the WOO was a colorful personalitiy quick wits plus an innovative mind.Things are much different today as the rule book has made the cars more equal. Karl,Steve and Mark will probably be the most dominant teams in history with out spending what it takes today.The top 8 cars can all win on certain nights.The best high paying race to watch was D.S. coming from 10 rows back to win the Knoxville Nationals.

Let me play devil's advocate here and add to the points being made.  I believe a true innovator will create ways no matter the time period.  There are people right now innovating for the future.  For example: The Ford motor Schatz just won with.  I believe that Karl is/was one of those types of people and he would have out worked you know matter what time period.   It would be either designing something new or making something better.  He would find a way to come up with new innovations to stay ahead of everyone else.  A rare individual in the realm of sprint car racing.

Truth be told there are a bunch of drivers and owner/mechanics in the SCHOF that I wonder if they were coming up today if they even could race Sprint Cars.  I'm not speaking about their talent or career records but many of them came from humble means and like Karl were known for their innovations.  Today everybody buys everything off the shelf with the emphasis on the word buy.  Not too many years down the road everyone going into the HOF will be obligated to thank family money for their careers.  It's a different world today.

Stan Meissner

I thought Karl was repairing skool buses for Mark's driving?

No, I bet you're thinking of that other guy- Carl Cinser.

Agree.  However, his innovations in the decades he raced made them dominate.  From what I have been taking in, and how even the cars are required to be, I don't think innovation does much more at this point than give you a small edge here and there.  Could he still be an innovator?  Sure, why not.  Would it be near the impact now as it was 30 years ago?  I'm betting it couldn't be.  

I'd say if he had the desire & money was not an issue, if he fielded a car, within a year it would be a dominate car. Every bit as dominate as the 15 has been the last 10-12 yr (and remember that car up until this year was crew chief by a Karl Kinser student). And to demonstrate what knowledge, experience and old school thinking bring to the table just look at Bobby Allen. He takes 2 green horn kids without major money to start with and in just a few years has become one of the teams to beat most every night. 

Sorry it was late when I typed that, it made perfect sense last night lol.  But thankfully you got exactly what I was trying to say.  I agree too about yesterday's stars succeeding today.  Sunday they interviewed Barry Sanders before the game and asked him if he ever wants to get out there to play and he said the same thing, no way these guys are way bigger today.  Since you're a Bears fan I've just gotta say go Vikes lol.

I think you bring up a great point but it also goes against your point.  Bobby Allen has made one of his cars a team to beat every night.  However, he is nowhere close to dominate.  Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Logan come out and dominate, but that is going to take a lot more of what everyone says is needed----MONEY.  Also, only one car is a team to beat every night and the other still has not won a WoO race-----though he has been well on his way several times before the bad luck bug bit.  

I don't feel it goes against my point at all. To take those 2 kids and do what he has done is amazing And neither would be where they are without the tutoring they get from bobby. Put Logan in Karl's car and he'd dominate. 

 I heard first hand once from a very prominent driver that drove Karl's car once while mark was out trucking.... he said, that car is amazing and there is no reason it shouldn't win every race.  I know some will say that today it's different, I realize that it's not exactly the same, but it's still the most basic of racecar out there. It's not that much different and the stopwatch will back that up at a lot of tracks. 

I forget where I heard this quote, but it was somebody quoting another driver from the 80's or 90's I think.

"We all thought Steve Kinser was God, but we then realized Steve was driving God's sprint car." Or something to that effect.

First of all Johnny, you da man.  Love your posts.

However, if my numbers are correct Steve won 156 features and 6 WoO championships AFTER splitting with Karl----all after 40 years of age.  He also beat Karl head to head a few times with Karl's car in the field and Mark at the wheel.  I would put this right up there with the Gordon/Evernham argument in NASCAR.  How did Jeff do after Ray left?  A championship and a ton of wins.  How did Ray do?  ...........................nothing to report here.  

Was Karl a badass?  sure.  Give Steve some credit.  He was the other 1/2 of the equation

Oh for sure. I wasnt trying to diminish Steve's accomplishments in any way. I just thought the quite obvious tongue-in-cheek quote, by whomever it was, was germane to the points that were being made about how great Karl was.

Thanks for the kind words. Your posts are on point as well. I know I'm gonna get a rational, cogent argument when I see your name at the top of the post.

Welp, I'm looking forward to downing some beers this weekend at Port. Have a good weekend, Sarge.