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Topic: Team Budgets 41 versus 5 Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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JonR
November 01, 2018 at 08:41:49 PM
Joined: 05/28/2008
Posts: 872
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So, I have no real point of reference, but I always got the impression that the team budget for the 5 was much  larger than the 41.  Perhaps, it was in some of the stores describing all that Jason did to make his team work.   Are they considered equal rides with equal budgets or is one ahead of the other?




egras
November 02, 2018 at 07:28:42 AM
Joined: 08/16/2009
Posts: 3913
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Posted By: JonR on November 01 2018 at 08:41:49 PM

So, I have no real point of reference, but I always got the impression that the team budget for the 5 was much  larger than the 41.  Perhaps, it was in some of the stores describing all that Jason did to make his team work.   Are they considered equal rides with equal budgets or is one ahead of the other?



I got that impression as well...............of course, just as you say, only an impression without knowing any real numbers.  



Nickules
November 02, 2018 at 09:06:05 AM
Joined: 08/05/2015
Posts: 1133
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"Equal rides" is hard to quantify/equate from a purely optics standpoint.  You're (and most of us) getting that impression because 41 was/is an owner/driver operation so optically is perceived as "less budget" if that makes sense.  Doesn't mean fiscally speaking that's the case, but it gives the impression nonetheless.  Jason worked his ass off building his team, maintaining sponsors, etc. so not only did he do the behind the scenes stuff he was the driver too.  Commendable to say the least.  Brian Brown = same thing. 




Murphy
November 02, 2018 at 10:38:07 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3261
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     How would you factor in the driver's and crew's talents to compensate for equipment expenditures?



dsc1600
November 02, 2018 at 11:05:23 AM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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Both teams have a shop, both teams have multiple crew members, both teams have a ton of sponsors. I assume the equipment is fairly equal. 

Money obviously matters a ton in racing but I think when it comes down to it the CJB and JJR operations are fairly comparable. 



blazer00
November 02, 2018 at 12:12:49 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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This message was edited on November 02, 2018 at 12:14:05 PM by blazer00

ALL teams are equal on the WoO tour (according to the rule book). With the exception of the teams with TOO MUCH MONEY. Those teams can be described by the fact that no matter how much the costs rise, they can continue to out spend and flourish. Those teams include TSR, KKR, KLR and CJB (as long as they are partnered with MUDDY/BIG GAME). So the five race teams associated with those owner groups can most likely outspend any other teams on the tour. I don't think there's much doubt in that. Otherwise, all things are equal. (sarcasm)




linbob
November 02, 2018 at 01:44:13 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
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Posted By: dsc1600 on November 02 2018 at 11:05:23 AM

Both teams have a shop, both teams have multiple crew members, both teams have a ton of sponsors. I assume the equipment is fairly equal. 

Money obviously matters a ton in racing but I think when it comes down to it the CJB and JJR operations are fairly comparable. 



Go to CJB motorsorts garage tour---they have big operation



hardon
November 02, 2018 at 11:32:58 PM
Joined: 02/20/2005
Posts: 485
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So I have what might be a dumb question here.  But as long as they have enough money for travel, top notch equipment, lodging and a good crew, how much does more money help.  I ask this because I can see in NASCAR where it would make a difference as there is a lot more R&D going on, I think.  How much R&D is needed to be competitive in the outlaws?  I know with TSR they have the Ford motor project and KKR has special bodies and maybe a shock company?  But is this necessary?  I would think the chassis manufacturers and engine builders are doing the majority of the R&D.  Am I way off base here or could the average joe with no connections "buy" enough competitive resources and equipment to be competitve?



Murphy
November 03, 2018 at 10:07:22 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3261
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Posted By: hardon on November 02 2018 at 11:32:58 PM

So I have what might be a dumb question here.  But as long as they have enough money for travel, top notch equipment, lodging and a good crew, how much does more money help.  I ask this because I can see in NASCAR where it would make a difference as there is a lot more R&D going on, I think.  How much R&D is needed to be competitive in the outlaws?  I know with TSR they have the Ford motor project and KKR has special bodies and maybe a shock company?  But is this necessary?  I would think the chassis manufacturers and engine builders are doing the majority of the R&D.  Am I way off base here or could the average joe with no connections "buy" enough competitive resources and equipment to be competitve?



      I would think so, but to be honest, nowadays you'd also be buying a competitive driver and crew chief as well. That's the contribution of the NASCR money to the sport- it took it to the next level.




JonR
November 03, 2018 at 10:03:26 PM
Joined: 05/28/2008
Posts: 872
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Posted By: hardon on November 02 2018 at 11:32:58 PM

So I have what might be a dumb question here.  But as long as they have enough money for travel, top notch equipment, lodging and a good crew, how much does more money help.  I ask this because I can see in NASCAR where it would make a difference as there is a lot more R&D going on, I think.  How much R&D is needed to be competitive in the outlaws?  I know with TSR they have the Ford motor project and KKR has special bodies and maybe a shock company?  But is this necessary?  I would think the chassis manufacturers and engine builders are doing the majority of the R&D.  Am I way off base here or could the average joe with no connections "buy" enough competitive resources and equipment to be competitve?



At the face value, I think that your statement is correct, but when you dig deeper, I think a bigger budget does help.  How many people are on the road crew?  How big (if any) is the support staff at the home shop?  How long do you run your parts before you refresh them?   Are your spare parts new or the items that you just took off of the car?   I am sure that there are other items like this that seperate a big team.   One area that I would bet is different from big team to small team is the amount of nights in the motel versus the race rig.  



blazer00
November 03, 2018 at 10:24:44 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: JonR on November 03 2018 at 10:03:26 PM

At the face value, I think that your statement is correct, but when you dig deeper, I think a bigger budget does help.  How many people are on the road crew?  How big (if any) is the support staff at the home shop?  How long do you run your parts before you refresh them?   Are your spare parts new or the items that you just took off of the car?   I am sure that there are other items like this that seperate a big team.   One area that I would bet is different from big team to small team is the amount of nights in the motel versus the race rig.  



Also, does a team have the right equipment to check the actual ratings and functions of the shocks and torsion bars. Factory specs have a plus or minus rating, so to match up shocks and bars to accomplish the desired set up at different tracks and conditions requires checking and rechecking the condition of those components. The equipment that can do just that is not cheap. Technology requires even more emphasis on precision to maximize success. A lot of testing takes place in the shop before ever hitting the track.



EasyE
November 04, 2018 at 05:11:37 AM
Joined: 10/29/2017
Posts: 384
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Posted By: blazer00 on November 03 2018 at 10:24:44 PM

Also, does a team have the right equipment to check the actual ratings and functions of the shocks and torsion bars. Factory specs have a plus or minus rating, so to match up shocks and bars to accomplish the desired set up at different tracks and conditions requires checking and rechecking the condition of those components. The equipment that can do just that is not cheap. Technology requires even more emphasis on precision to maximize success. A lot of testing takes place in the shop before ever hitting the track.



Yes most bigger teams have a shock dyno in the trailer




J&J
November 04, 2018 at 09:38:06 AM
Joined: 08/17/2012
Posts: 289
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Posted By: blazer00 on November 02 2018 at 12:12:49 PM

ALL teams are equal on the WoO tour (according to the rule book). With the exception of the teams with TOO MUCH MONEY. Those teams can be described by the fact that no matter how much the costs rise, they can continue to out spend and flourish. Those teams include TSR, KKR, KLR and CJB (as long as they are partnered with MUDDY/BIG GAME). So the five race teams associated with those owner groups can most likely outspend any other teams on the tour. I don't think there's much doubt in that. Otherwise, all things are equal. (sarcasm)



How much does Muddy/big game give to cjb does anyone have a figure

 As far as KKR. Team owners don’t really put in their personal money  they bring their sponsors with them from cup rides. I had heard that their was a possibly no team 9 next year because if no sponsorship the team can not be funded. 

Yes big sponsored names on some of these cars, but what if you have lots of sponsors who can equal up just as much with several snallwe spinsors. These are all figures we will not know



blazer00
November 04, 2018 at 03:53:26 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: J&J on November 04 2018 at 09:38:06 AM

How much does Muddy/big game give to cjb does anyone have a figure

 As far as KKR. Team owners don’t really put in their personal money  they bring their sponsors with them from cup rides. I had heard that their was a possibly no team 9 next year because if no sponsorship the team can not be funded. 

Yes big sponsored names on some of these cars, but what if you have lots of sponsors who can equal up just as much with several snallwe spinsors. These are all figures we will not know



The primary sponsors that the TSR, KKR and KLR teams attract are spending big to be where they are. Specifically TSR and KLR, I'd bet. I'm well aware of the fact that the boys aren't spending their own money in the end, although I do think they have a financial investment in the teams. As the owner, they see a return on their investment through purses and such. I don't  think a lesser team could have enough sponsors to ante up the kind of money like say Chevrolet is putting up for KLR. Chevrolet wants to be more exclusive than that. They'll pay big so as to not have their name brand be clutterred with verbal diarrhea everytime the team is referred to. 



hardon
November 05, 2018 at 12:44:16 AM
Joined: 02/20/2005
Posts: 485
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Posted By: JonR on November 03 2018 at 10:03:26 PM

At the face value, I think that your statement is correct, but when you dig deeper, I think a bigger budget does help.  How many people are on the road crew?  How big (if any) is the support staff at the home shop?  How long do you run your parts before you refresh them?   Are your spare parts new or the items that you just took off of the car?   I am sure that there are other items like this that seperate a big team.   One area that I would bet is different from big team to small team is the amount of nights in the motel versus the race rig.  



This is good info.  And don't take my statement wrong, I know a bigger budget will help, my question is how.  NASCAR has shown throughout the years that it takes more than money to succeed, with several very wealthy people leaving the sport for whatever reason.  And I can see reasons why as there is constant rule changes which require lots more R&D.  But if someone came in who had as big of a racing budget as Tony Stewart or Kasey Kahne, but not the racing connections, it possible to be competitive in a timely manner?




ryanhunsinger
November 05, 2018 at 06:25:42 AM
Joined: 12/10/2016
Posts: 149
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This message was edited on November 05, 2018 at 06:30:31 AM by ryanhunsinger

I would say that just like NASCAR, the top 10 cars are all within a few hp of each other and they all have equipment that is capable of winning. When you have close to equal equipment, the most important “difference making” asset that a team can have is people, and money definitely helps you hire and retain good people. A small budget vs a larger budget means sleeping in the toterhome and eating gas station pizza vs sleeping in a nice hotel and having decent meals. When you’re out on the road 10 months a year I’m sure this is huge thing. You can also have say 3-4 guys vs 1-2 guys out on the road with you which is a huge difference in manpower. You can have a shock guy and a tire guy and make sure everything is done right for every race instead of thrashing to get ready and having to overlook things. The outlaw tour burns people out no matter how comfortable they are but I think that having the budget to hire, take care of and retain good people would make a huge difference.

 

As far as your other question, I would say that anyone with the budget could be capable of starting a team and being competitive right away, but the determining factor comes back to people. If you liked sprint car racing and decided to start a team with your buddies, it wouldn’t matter how much money you had, you would suck for a long time. If you decided to start a team and you hired a proven driver and someone like Barry Jackson or Paul Silva to run the team, then yes you would be competitive immediately.



J&J
November 06, 2018 at 11:32:04 PM
Joined: 08/17/2012
Posts: 289
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Posted By: ryanhunsinger on November 05 2018 at 06:25:42 AM

I would say that just like NASCAR, the top 10 cars are all within a few hp of each other and they all have equipment that is capable of winning. When you have close to equal equipment, the most important “difference making” asset that a team can have is people, and money definitely helps you hire and retain good people. A small budget vs a larger budget means sleeping in the toterhome and eating gas station pizza vs sleeping in a nice hotel and having decent meals. When you’re out on the road 10 months a year I’m sure this is huge thing. You can also have say 3-4 guys vs 1-2 guys out on the road with you which is a huge difference in manpower. You can have a shock guy and a tire guy and make sure everything is done right for every race instead of thrashing to get ready and having to overlook things. The outlaw tour burns people out no matter how comfortable they are but I think that having the budget to hire, take care of and retain good people would make a huge difference.

 

As far as your other question, I would say that anyone with the budget could be capable of starting a team and being competitive right away, but the determining factor comes back to people. If you liked sprint car racing and decided to start a team with your buddies, it wouldn’t matter how much money you had, you would suck for a long time. If you decided to start a team and you hired a proven driver and someone like Barry Jackson or Paul Silva to run the team, then yes you would be competitive immediately.



Not sure how much CJB has spent or what their budget is, but yesterday I listened to an interview with Bobbi on FB and says Jason was very good with having a spread sheet and that the past few years they spent around 436,000.00 to run the series.

She predicts that she will be spending around 600,000.00 this season with paying a driver rather than putting the earnings back into the team



RodinCanada
MyWebsite
November 06, 2018 at 11:41:14 PM
Joined: 07/24/2016
Posts: 1720
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Even tho that is a lot of money it seems low. i had been told by a few different guys from different teams that a full WoO schedule cost them 1 million per year. Good on them for being able to succeed like they did on a smaller budget.


Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!


EasyE
November 07, 2018 at 05:10:20 AM
Joined: 10/29/2017
Posts: 384
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Posted By: J&J on November 06 2018 at 11:32:04 PM

Not sure how much CJB has spent or what their budget is, but yesterday I listened to an interview with Bobbi on FB and says Jason was very good with having a spread sheet and that the past few years they spent around 436,000.00 to run the series.

She predicts that she will be spending around 600,000.00 this season with paying a driver rather than putting the earnings back into the team



WOW. Didn' expect a drivers salary to be so high I always wondered what thier salary was



SAF92
November 07, 2018 at 06:47:01 AM
Joined: 01/24/2018
Posts: 386
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Posted By: EasyE on November 07 2018 at 05:10:20 AM

WOW. Didn' expect a drivers salary to be so high I always wondered what thier salary was



I've always been under the impression the "base" pay is around 30% while top tier drivers make 40-50%. Would love someone with more insight to comment...





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