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Topic: Mt. Rushmore Of Sprintcar racing Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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longtimemitchfan
July 21, 2018 at 11:40:38 AM
Joined: 06/27/2012
Posts: 749
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It is still pretty clear who would be on as far as drivers go,Wolfgang,Kinser,Schatz and Swindell. Dewease and Rahmer would still be a notch below along with Weld,Opperman and Paxton.

As far as mechanics go the top three are easy Davey Brown,Karl Kinser and Ricky Warner not sure who would be the fourth maybe Woodruf,Folbrook or Paul Silva for what he does with Kyle and Rico last year and Shane Stewart before.

Anybody I forgot ? 




blazer00
July 21, 2018 at 12:03:55 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: longtimemitchfan on July 21 2018 at 11:40:38 AM

It is still pretty clear who would be on as far as drivers go,Wolfgang,Kinser,Schatz and Swindell. Dewease and Rahmer would still be a notch below along with Weld,Opperman and Paxton.

As far as mechanics go the top three are easy Davey Brown,Karl Kinser and Ricky Warner not sure who would be the fourth maybe Woodruf,Folbrook or Paul Silva for what he does with Kyle and Rico last year and Shane Stewart before.

Anybody I forgot ? 



 There might be a spot in the Pennsylvania mountains for Dewease, Rahmer and Paxton......but sure as hell not at Mt Rushmore. There's at least a dozen (or more) drivers with better credentials than those three. As for mechanics, Ricky Warner, Davey Brown Sr and Karl Kinser are automatic picks. Filling the fourth spot gets pretty tough. 



dsc1600
July 21, 2018 at 12:26:36 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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Outlaw era for sure Kinser, Schatz, Swindell and Wolfgang. 

Dont know enough about previous eras to comment. I’d put Mark Kinser, the dude, Stevie Smith and Bobby Allen before I’d get to Lance and Rahmer.




raidersam67
July 22, 2018 at 01:06:07 AM
Joined: 10/21/2012
Posts: 130
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Posted By: longtimemitchfan on July 21 2018 at 11:40:38 AM

It is still pretty clear who would be on as far as drivers go,Wolfgang,Kinser,Schatz and Swindell. Dewease and Rahmer would still be a notch below along with Weld,Opperman and Paxton.

As far as mechanics go the top three are easy Davey Brown,Karl Kinser and Ricky Warner not sure who would be the fourth maybe Woodruf,Folbrook or Paul Silva for what he does with Kyle and Rico last year and Shane Stewart before.

Anybody I forgot ? 



if you are talking about the Mt.Rushmore of the WoO ...then it is def KINSER,WOLFGANG,SWINDELL and SCHITZ...umm i mean SCHATZ..... but the Mt Rushmore of SPRINT CAR RACING?..THAT'S a whole diff story. schatz isn't on this Mt Rushmore.


“The saddest aspect of life right now is that science 
gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.” 

crk410
July 22, 2018 at 01:29:35 AM
Joined: 09/30/2007
Posts: 114
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Posted By: blazer00 on July 21 2018 at 12:03:55 PM

 There might be a spot in the Pennsylvania mountains for Dewease, Rahmer and Paxton......but sure as hell not at Mt Rushmore. There's at least a dozen (or more) drivers with better credentials than those three. As for mechanics, Ricky Warner, Davey Brown Sr and Karl Kinser are automatic picks. Filling the fourth spot gets pretty tough. 



I'd be interested to see your list of 12 drivers with better career resumes than Fred Rahmer


The nine scariest words in the english language 
are ,"i'm from the government and i'm here to help" - 
Ronald Reagan

blazer00
July 22, 2018 at 12:59:31 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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This message was edited on July 22, 2018 at 01:04:08 PM by blazer00
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Posted By: crk410 on July 22 2018 at 01:29:35 AM

I'd be interested to see your list of 12 drivers with better career resumes than Fred Rahmer



My list doesn't matter. It's only an opinion. But what Rahmer needed to take his career to the next level was a win at the Knoxville Nationals or a couple Kings Royals. Rahmer only has one Williams Grove National Open. His hallowed track. Lance Dewease has a better resume than Rahmer. A huge number of wins against local drivers just isn't enough. It was nothing in PA at one time to be able to race 4 and 5 times a week. That's why Opperman, Weld and Wolfgang headed there. If Rahmer had beaten the Outlaws on a consistant basis over the years when the Outlaws went through Posse country then yes, he'd be mentioned with the very top drivers. But he didn't. He has just 9 (5A-4P) wins aginst the Outlaws at Williams Grove (Dewease has 12...7A-5P). The fact that they have maybe defended their turf better than anybody else just isn't enough. No other long term locals other than Lasoski is mentioned with the very best, either (Wolfgang never stayed in one place very long....but dominated when he did). Not McCarl, Dobmiere and not even Dollansky. Dollansky will make the NSCHoF but not sure about Dobmiere. I do try to keep things in perspective. Those on racing's Mt Rushmore are the elite of the elite. They are follwed by the elite, and so on down the list. So I guess it depends on your perspective of the elite and very best drivers and their accomplishments




singlefile
July 22, 2018 at 01:34:23 PM
Joined: 04/24/2005
Posts: 1341
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Posted By: blazer00 on July 22 2018 at 12:59:31 PM

My list doesn't matter. It's only an opinion. But what Rahmer needed to take his career to the next level was a win at the Knoxville Nationals or a couple Kings Royals. Rahmer only has one Williams Grove National Open. His hallowed track. Lance Dewease has a better resume than Rahmer. A huge number of wins against local drivers just isn't enough. It was nothing in PA at one time to be able to race 4 and 5 times a week. That's why Opperman, Weld and Wolfgang headed there. If Rahmer had beaten the Outlaws on a consistant basis over the years when the Outlaws went through Posse country then yes, he'd be mentioned with the very top drivers. But he didn't. He has just 9 (5A-4P) wins aginst the Outlaws at Williams Grove (Dewease has 12...7A-5P). The fact that they have maybe defended their turf better than anybody else just isn't enough. No other long term locals other than Lasoski is mentioned with the very best, either (Wolfgang never stayed in one place very long....but dominated when he did). Not McCarl, Dobmiere and not even Dollansky. Dollansky will make the NSCHoF but not sure about Dobmiere. I do try to keep things in perspective. Those on racing's Mt Rushmore are the elite of the elite. They are follwed by the elite, and so on down the list. So I guess it depends on your perspective of the elite and very best drivers and their accomplishments



I don't even really disagree with your overall point, although I do disagree about Lance having a better resume. The resumes are very similar to me. Both Rahmer and Dewease won races the other didn't. Rahmer has two prelim wins at the Nationals that Lance doesn't. IMO, it is telling that when the best local drivers raced together in Speedweek year after year, Rahmer won the title 13 times to Dewease's three.



Kingpin2014
MyWebsite
July 22, 2018 at 02:19:24 PM
Joined: 06/20/2017
Posts: 498
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Dave Blaney hasn’t been mentioned yet but certainly deserves to be. 70 outlaw wins, 49 all star wins, wins at the Knoxville nationals and kings royal, Outlaw champion. 



railfan33
July 22, 2018 at 02:44:53 PM
Joined: 07/24/2010
Posts: 637
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Posted By: singlefile on July 22 2018 at 01:34:23 PM

I don't even really disagree with your overall point, although I do disagree about Lance having a better resume. The resumes are very similar to me. Both Rahmer and Dewease won races the other didn't. Rahmer has two prelim wins at the Nationals that Lance doesn't. IMO, it is telling that when the best local drivers raced together in Speedweek year after year, Rahmer won the title 13 times to Dewease's three.



Also think they’re similar. Lance had a Nationals preliminary in the bag one year,with  a big lead only to have a tire blow with a few laps to go. If memory serves me correctly, Fred ended up the winner. 




dsc1600
July 22, 2018 at 02:57:34 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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Lance has a really good big race resume but I think rahmer was more consistent over the years.



blazer00
July 22, 2018 at 03:00:29 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: singlefile on July 22 2018 at 01:34:23 PM

I don't even really disagree with your overall point, although I do disagree about Lance having a better resume. The resumes are very similar to me. Both Rahmer and Dewease won races the other didn't. Rahmer has two prelim wins at the Nationals that Lance doesn't. IMO, it is telling that when the best local drivers raced together in Speedweek year after year, Rahmer won the title 13 times to Dewease's three.



I was aware of that. And when the very best locals and quite often best in the land raced at the Williams Grove National Open, Dewease has five and Rahmer one. And those are event wins. Often times a Speedweek isn't won by the driver with the most wins.....it's a points deal. The two are very similar in acchievments, no doubt



cubicdollars
July 22, 2018 at 03:20:05 PM
Joined: 02/27/2005
Posts: 4443
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Could put the Posse on top of the Mountain and the Outlaws on the bottom, and design it so when it rains the Posse pisses on them.


 

 

 

They don't even know how to spell sprint car much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com



singlefile
July 22, 2018 at 04:37:20 PM
Joined: 04/24/2005
Posts: 1341
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This message was edited on July 22, 2018 at 04:46:51 PM by singlefile
Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on July 22 2018 at 03:00:29 PM

I was aware of that. And when the very best locals and quite often best in the land raced at the Williams Grove National Open, Dewease has five and Rahmer one. And those are event wins. Often times a Speedweek isn't won by the driver with the most wins.....it's a points deal. The two are very similar in acchievments, no doubt



I know what you are saying, but the National Open comprises about one percent of the races each of them ran during their career (one race a year out of about 80-100 starts a year during their primes). Rahmer has more track champships at the Grove, where the two raced head to head every week (nine to six) All things considered, I think the two are very even.

I wouldn't say that Michael Waltrip has the better NASCAR Cup resume than Dale Earnhardt was just because Waltrip had more Daytona 500 wins.

Rahmer wasn't winning the Speedweek title because he was running fourth every night. He still has more career feature wins than anyone else in that, and he has been retired for four years now.



blazer00
July 22, 2018 at 05:14:52 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: singlefile on July 22 2018 at 04:37:20 PM

I know what you are saying, but the National Open comprises about one percent of the races each of them ran during their career (one race a year out of about 80-100 starts a year during their primes). Rahmer has more track champships at the Grove, where the two raced head to head every week (nine to six) All things considered, I think the two are very even.

I wouldn't say that Michael Waltrip has the better NASCAR Cup resume than Dale Earnhardt was just because Waltrip had more Daytona 500 wins.

Rahmer wasn't winning the Speedweek title because he was running fourth every night. He still has more career feature wins than anyone else in that, and he has been retired for four years now.



Well  Waltrip-Earnhardt is a rather big stretch for a comparison, don't ya think?  I mean let's be realistic. I also seem to remember that during an EMMR round table discussion that Dewease said he had about six less seasons (or large parts of six seasons) at the Grove than Rahmer. That was a year or so ago while he was in pursiut of Rahmers all time win record.  No need to split hairs anyway. Both were very good.



singlefile
July 22, 2018 at 05:27:54 PM
Joined: 04/24/2005
Posts: 1341
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Posted By: blazer00 on July 22 2018 at 05:14:52 PM

Well  Waltrip-Earnhardt is a rather big stretch for a comparison, don't ya think?  I mean let's be realistic. I also seem to remember that during an EMMR round table discussion that Dewease said he had about six less seasons (or large parts of six seasons) at the Grove than Rahmer. That was a year or so ago while he was in pursiut of Rahmers all time win record.  No need to split hairs anyway. Both were very good.



That is obviously a big stretch in comparison. I was just trying to illustrate the point that one particular race doesn't overshadow a driver's entire body of work.

This is a very good debate.

FWIW, when Jeremy Elliott did his list of the top 25 Sprint Car drivers of cnetral Pennsylvania over the past 30 year in 2013, he had Rahmer at No. 1 and Dewease at No. 2.

 




DakotaDude
July 22, 2018 at 05:58:12 PM
Joined: 12/19/2010
Posts: 273
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Steve Kinser, Sammy Swindell and Doug Wolfgang are etched in stone and , in my opinion, there’s no debating that issue. The hammers and chisels are being readied to put Schatz there. I’d have no problem with a 5th driver on the mountain, heck, in racing we talk about winners, podiums (top3) and top fives. But sorry, I don’t know why all the debating about Lance and Fred Rahmer above. While there is absolutely no debating that their careers HoF worthy, a racer on Mt. Rushmore, without question requires at least 1 Knoxville Nationals win and Kings Royal win, both of them, not one or the other, in addition to other Crown Jewels. 



sonoranrat
July 22, 2018 at 06:49:50 PM
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 417
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Posted By: crk410 on July 22 2018 at 01:29:35 AM

I'd be interested to see your list of 12 drivers with better career resumes than Fred Rahmer



Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, Kyle Larson, Johnny Rutherford, Mario Andretti, AJ Foyt, Steve Kinser, Sammy Swindell, Tom Bigelow, Donnie Schatz, Rich Vogler, and Parnelli Jones.  



GTigers55
July 22, 2018 at 06:53:38 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 420
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Posted By: Kingpin2014 on July 22 2018 at 02:19:24 PM

Dave Blaney hasn’t been mentioned yet but certainly deserves to be. 70 outlaw wins, 49 all star wins, wins at the Knoxville nationals and kings royal, Outlaw champion. 



Wonder what kind of Career he would've put together on dirt had he not went on to NASCAR. Not to mention he's still damn competitive running with the All Stars this year and had a few wins in the Motter car before that when he came back. I have a feeling that's how people will look at Larson and Bell probably in the future...




blazer00
July 23, 2018 at 08:18:12 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: singlefile on July 22 2018 at 05:27:54 PM

That is obviously a big stretch in comparison. I was just trying to illustrate the point that one particular race doesn't overshadow a driver's entire body of work.

This is a very good debate.

FWIW, when Jeremy Elliott did his list of the top 25 Sprint Car drivers of cnetral Pennsylvania over the past 30 year in 2013, he had Rahmer at No. 1 and Dewease at No. 2.

 



 I did see that list when it came out. Elliott would have a lot more results and info than I would have, so I'd admit he (and you) have it right. I doubt the last five years have made enough of a difference to change that. But Dewease has added some impressive stats to his resume since 2013. 



rolldog
MyWebsite
July 23, 2018 at 08:42:51 AM
Joined: 08/01/2013
Posts: 431
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Posted By: sonoranrat on July 22 2018 at 06:49:50 PM

Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, Kyle Larson, Johnny Rutherford, Mario Andretti, AJ Foyt, Steve Kinser, Sammy Swindell, Tom Bigelow, Donnie Schatz, Rich Vogler, and Parnelli Jones.  



That's a pretty good list.





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