Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: hosehead

Rafeal - Your technique doesn't suck but your are losing a lot of quality without the flash and a "less than $100" lens. You have very good panning by the photos you posted above but your depth of field sucks. You can see your central focal point but anything more than about 1 foot deep is fuzzy. You need wider/faster glass if you want to shoot without a flash for any kind of action photography. Secondly, look at the grain. Even in these small photos you can see it. How large have you tried to print these. And looking at your site these are the best shots. I am not saying you suck and have no potential but your equipment is holding you back whether your willing to admit it or not.

Michael may be a little more blunt than many but he is one of the best out there. If he says your ability is not what you think it is I would be asking him what I could do to improve. If all we do is give each other warm fuzzies there is no need to shoot anything better.

I tried shooting some shots without a flash myself this weekend. At f/1.8 your depth of field is greatly improved and with a body that comfortably shoots up to ISO1600 without grain. Still I don't consider the photos to be as good as those from the night before with flash and the same gear.

Sweeeet! I love getting called out on an internet message board...makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

You choose to call yourself the magician? I shall call myself batman...I like the way it rolls off the tongue!

While you were busy being butthurt, I think you missed the fact that I complimented your attempt. I have avoided buying a full Norman / Quantum setup because I don't like the unnatural effect that they place on images. Heavily flashed photos don't comply with my view of the race and an image of a moment in said event. It's truly glorified point and shoot photography.....just the biggest flash and equipment you can get instead of a $150 consumer model. And I know to the guys that use that stuff.....they don't care about my style because theirs is what they prefer.

But that being said.....on just a simple photographic level....your images are hugely lacking. They survive alone on the internet only because there are rarely images on the net bigger than 800px wide. Yours are roughly 500px and most people don't have high resolution, well calibrated monitors like photographers...or the image standards we do. The images exhibit poor composition, exposure, and focus. They are much more highly indicative of a "lucky capture" than a quality image with any artistic value. Hey....even a blind dog finds a bone every now and again. John makes very good points about your equipment but there are very basic elements of your photos that are sub-standard. My point still stands....the images you submit for high volume public viewing wouldn't have made it out of my camera and into my editing software. Thats my style though...and I think 90% of my stuff royally sucks....so what do you really care about my opinion? Awww...you care....you really really care!

Since you care....here's what I suggest. Don't buy a flash, save that $350 and keep your style. Buy a 10mp camera. Save up $1600 for a 70-200 F2.8 IS (Canon) or VR (Nikon) lens. Stop going to Manzy....worst lights in America! Stop selling parts and products on your website...its tacky. Use a smaller watermark.....its not about you....its about the photo.

Batman....out!

http://www.MichaelHillPhoto.com

Wow, its been a whille since I logged into the Hoseheads Fourm and boy have I missed alot!! I have to agree with you John that Michael is very blunt with his opinion but that is one of the main reasons that I enjoy talking to him and he as always been helpful to me whenever I have had a question or anything aswell as yourself and many of the other photographers that I have had the privlage of shooting with, and I say privlage because I am new to this world. As some one who hasnt shot alot of motorsports I kinda compare it to a rookie driver you only get better with seat time and I like to think that over the past year my style and quality of images has gotten better..I know that I still have a lot to learn and that the gear that I have limits me alot but just like the low budget racer you work with the stuff you have.

"Just a hack with a camera" :) Yea Right!!

www.baphotos.myphotoalbum.com 

What strikes me most about these discussions is the intelligence level that is so apparent when you read them. For reasons I will candidly discuss (but not on a message board) my days as a motorsports photographer are over and it's a choice not a forced circumstance that puts me in that status. My point is that what always amazed me was how intelligent the people I met when I was actively involved in pursuing the craft were and there were very few exceptions. The personalities varied but the intelligence level was consistent and based on what I see today from a distance it still exists. I think it says a lot about the future of the craft and the potential for incredible experiences that existed for me still being out there for people actively involved in it now. It all really helps with my "no regrets" attitude about the way the events and choices I have made have gotten me to where I am to a different place in my life then many would have never predicted if they knew me back in 1994 or so. Seeing all of you now, the quality of your work, and how passionate you are about the craft is affirmation of the time that I was on that journey. The fact that some of you are still my friends is actually humbling to me. As long as the mood strikes you - as long as you still love it - keep doing it. Some of us get to live vicariously through you :-).

Come on John taking racing pictures isn't dangerous

Photo by stevesracingphotos.com

Brian 

"TURN AROUND; MATE !"

John & Michael,

Here's the deal not all of us are privileged enough to be able to afford the gear you have. Does that make me a bad photographer? I'd have to say no but you may disagree. I've been shooting for a number of years and nothing you are telling me is new. I know all about my short comings as a photographer and most of it’s due to lack of proper gear. My point was that I think I'm doing pretty well with what I have to work with. To be honest I’d love to see some of you try shooting with the shitty gear I have with out a flash and then tell me my pictures are crap. I’m pushing the limit with what I have and no not all my shots are the greatest but they document the race and that’s truly what we are there for.

I know what I need to buy but quite simply I can't afford it. Hell I’d love to have a 5D with 85mm at 1.2 and a 70-200mm at 2.8 but I don’t have $5000 for shit like that.

And for Michael’s comment about my website and me selling other products on it. If this is tacky then so be it. I call it making money to support my family and my photography. Also you have a problem with me placing my logo on my images because it’s in your face. I do that for a reason. Most people called company branding and it clearly works so why stop? None of the pictures I sell or have on my webite have my company logo on them. I use it for myspace and when I let others have them for their website. Why not get something back? Oh yeah that's right it's tacky.

John that night shot with no flash looks great. It’s all about the track lights and shadows for me. That’s what the fans see so why give them something else? My only problem with this shot is the lack of life. They looked like they are parked on the track. Nothing in this picture shows any life at all other than the slight motion blur in the tires. My guess is that they were under yellow? Let me see what you got while they were at full speed. Also my protest of using a flash is due to this same issue. I like motion blur in photos. I like natural shots that show what everyone else sees. Using a flash might stop the car dead in it’s tracks and have every detail on the car clear as day but I don’t like the way these shots look. I want to see a shadow under the car. I want to see motion blur. I mean really how many times have you seen a shot of a car pullin it’s tires in the air and you can’t see is because of the lack of shadow to show you what’s really going on? I mean really would any of you flash photographers shoot a concert with a flash? If not why?

I think I’ve made my point here. I understand yours and like I said it’s nothing new. My major short coming is due to not having the money to buy the proper gear needed to shoot in my style properly. Unless someone plans on loaning me this gear or buying it for me you guys are bitch about my photos for a pointless reason. It’s plain and simple I’m not going to stop shooting because I can’t afford the gear I need.

Rafael Alvarez
623-225-4384
support@tmeracingphotography.com
MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/tme_racing
www.tmeracingphotography.com

Equipment doesn't make your personal artistic standards in photography lack. Use it as an excuse if you like. I completely understand the effect you are attempting...and there is an ultimate limit that you can't shoot below. Sprint cars rotate among three axis' when on track. There is no way to shoot at down near 1/5th of a second and get all of those axis' free of motion. The only way to even come close is to shoot them parallel to you on a straightaway...as to minimize the axis of motion laterally on the car. So the focus on your shots is always going to be poor.

I had quite substandard equipment for many years...I just didn't have the passion or desire for it. I fully recognized that the photos were horrible and lacking. I never put them up on the internet unless someone was using them for their website. I certainly wouldn't have put my name on them. So don't think that the woe is me thing is a good reason for the photos you post. Good photographers with reasonable standards are probably losing money because your standards are as low as the general public's. I know I didn't even TRY and sell photos until had a quality I found to be reasonable.

Here is the link to the one guy who I truly respect when it comes to this style. (www.figzphoto.com) He shoots some really impressive stuff. The EXIF data isn't displayed but I would guess he is down around 1/30th of a second, with VR or IS used, based on the tracks I know he shoots at. I applaud you, if you can replicate this look when you get the right equipment.

http://www.MichaelHillPhoto.com

Rafeal - You need to read a little closer. I didn't say you were a bad photographer. Neither did Michael. It was suggested that your technique is lacking and your equipment used beyond your and its potential. You yourself state that you know there not the greatest but it is what you can achieve with what you have. That tells the whole story there. As far as doing better with your equipment than you do; as I already stated I wouldn't try and if I did certainly I wouldn't post it with my name on it. The equipment simply can not shoot at night with any certainty. I think I have made "my" point.

As for the photo. It was at speed during the main event. Take a good look at it. Not the passing glance you usually give. Look at the axis points that Michael mentioned. Or just look at the left front coming up on Brad Sweet's car. Under caution indeed!! What you display is not what the fans see, well maybe after a few beers. The art of photography, specifically the art of action photography is the ability to stop the action showing every detail while still giving some semblence of movement not the other way around.

Take a look at the other sites that shoot without flash, including the one through your site www.stevesracingphotos.com and really really look at your stuff again.

Son, if you think that shot of John's is shot under a 'yellow' then there might not be any hope for you at all, sorry. Slo-mo photos are for the beginner and the next door neighbor's digital not a guy like John with his experience, trust me.

The criticism here has been very valid and more importantly VERY constructive, I applaud Michael and John for taking the time to share their knowledge and I do hope their efforts won't be wasted. If you truly have the passion you will upgrade and you will see the improvement with a corresponding effort on your part, you won't regret it. Personally, the single most important word in photography is lighting and the second and third most important are lighting and lighting as well. Good luck, don't get discouraged and continue to improve, set your own pace, Take It Easy.....

PS As calendar stated, you won't find better people at the track than your fellow shooters, get to know them, don't be afraid to ask and be honest with them and yourself......

Come on Mike you don't need a flash unless you are shooting victory lane!!!! WINK/WINK!! Lesson 1 folks you need flash every-time you pull the trigger!! You really need it in bright sunlight, as you cannot over power the sun! Lesson 2 buy a Norman the 2nd most important part of the setup. Lesson 3 buy a 80-200 2.8 lens you need the good glass. Don't waste your money on the new Nikon 70-200 it's garbage. Lesson 4 don't sleep in your car. You need a good nights sleep to get the shots in focus! But hey some chicks may dig it!!!???? You guys crack me up with all your ability, some may be brain washed from someone in PA or otherwise! It's funny some of the shooters sucking up to you guys on then MB, bad mouth you as soon as you walk away in real life! There are a lot of hypocrites in here, but I'm not going to call you out. You know who you are! There are some straight edge guys out there. Most times you won't see there shots posted all over the place, because they don't need to stroke their egos. $$$$$ pay the bills. So if you can pay the bills with compliments more power to you. Next time someone wants you to give them a deal on a pix ask them if they can call your electric company and see if they can give you a deal! I shoot 1 event in Ca a year, as it is pretty far to go logistically. It is some of the best racing of the year as well as buying customers! I have had folks emailing and calling, begging me to come out so they can get some decent images this year. MSPN is one a few guys thats actually made a living doing racing photos. He really took a beating on here, and it's funny he never actually took a beating in real life other than on the ice!! So you know it's easy for people to lurk and disguise themselves on here and bad mouth people all using an alias. The only alias that I liked was the one on the TV show, she looked good to me!!! So there you go. This is my take on the situation, I'm sure that most of you guys will not agree with some or all of it's content. Who cares!!! If you have a question at the track about shooting feel free to ask. That's how I learned the basics, the learning process starts after the first question. Hey maybe your photos are good enough for you, Great. But when they are not all that great, don't try to teach people your bad skills!!!! Mike give me a call, where you been hiding? If some of this does not make sense, hey I'm going to blame it on the pain pills!

Frank Smith

Rizzo to everyone that knows me!

Are you giys telling me that my instamatic is no longer a good enough camera to get action shots?

Save your butt, get a colon screening TODAY

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Mike,

Spoken like the true elder statesman that you are! Way to do our name proud! You musta been so ready to opinion-ate that you forgot.....take it easy!

Respect the past....rejoice in the present...prepare for the future. Above all else retain humility.

http://www.MichaelHillPhoto.com

Ok so I'm not going to bother getting into this with you guys anymore. Just shut the fuck up and take your picture. What I'm doing doesn't hurt any of you but for some reason Mike's been watching me from day one?

Mike, here's some food for thought. When you start dropping names on a website that those people don't use as a means of knocking their efforts you make yourself look like a bitch. What kind of chicken shit move is that? If you got something to say to me or anyone else about their work you know how to find us. Trying to knock what I do publicly shows your lack of tact and desperation to feel better about yourself. I don't give a crap how good you or anyone else thinks they are. Just shut the fuck up and take your pictures. Let your work speak for it's self and close your lips.

John, I have a little more respect for you than Mike but my first impression of you is riding on thin ice. The childish little jabs are getting old. And like I said nothing you are telling me that has any type true constructive criticism behind it is new to me. I know where I need to improve and it will happen with time. What I don't understand is the motive behind all this "constructive criticism". I mean really what's your point in even bringing this up? I had never even been a member of this website before I heard about this topic on ABC Motorsports. I mean can you truly call it helping someone with harsh words when they aren't around to hear what you got to say?

Anyway I'm done with this and I hope this constructive criticism doesn't burn any bridges for ether of you in the future. Do what you do and so will I. Maybe I'll cross paths with you guys at Manzy one day and then you can come give me some constructive criticism to my face rather than publicly behind my back.

Rafael Alvarez
623-225-4384
support@tmeracingphotography.com
MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/tme_racing
www.tmeracingphotography.com

Funny...I didn't bring the topic of you or your photos up...the guy who started the thread did. What resulted was a discussion on the dirth of motorsports photos lately....I can't help that your photo started it. I just chimed in...and referenced your photo and the work I had seen before. Then I interjected some reverence with some criticism and some knowledge when you came around.

I am so desperate to feel better about myself. Thank you for reminding me of that. I will go and try even harder to do it this afternoon

Sweet....I have always thought childish was not being able to control one's temper. I hate it when I'm wrong.

I love freedom of speech, and feeling that my opinion is special....makes living in the US great. But does anyone know how Nelligan got in here?

http://www.MichaelHillPhoto.com

Rafeal - Go back and read all of the posts. Look at the sequence and apply some comprehension. You offered up your photos, and I gave you feedback. Nothing more, nothing less and not the other way around. Telling me or anyone else to STFU won't help your photo quality or salesmanship. Alienating the very people that could help you get to the next level is probably the worse than your photographic ability. Whether I am on thin ice with you I could care less about.

For someone that has a site that is trying to get photographers to sign up and sell their photos through your site I do not understand your attitude. I bet you will sign up a lot of folks after that little tyriad. talk about burning bridges. BTW, what bridges might we have burned?

Oh, and if your calling me out for Manzy, I will most likely be making a trip there this fall for the Western World.

M Hill say's..."Heavily flashed photos don't comply with my view of the race and an image of a moment in said event. It's truly glorified point and shoot photography.....just the biggest flash and equipment you can get instead of a $150 consumer model. And I know to the guys that use that stuff.....they don't care about my style because theirs is what they prefer."

So let me see if I can follow this...So everyone that uses a Norman or a Lymedyne or any other external flash is just a point and shoot photog??? Man you sure paint with a very wide brush...Funny how you seem to know all the answers but have never used the equip. Being good in Photoshop does not make you a good shooter!!! Ya still gotta take the picture and have some skills...I treat my flash just like my American Express Card...I never leave home without it!!!

Aman to that Travis... I usually carry a spare or two just in case I max one out.... Flashes that is...

Hey...I rock plenty of flash.....just don't like the full blown setup effect. The dropoff of the light at the edges of images produces a light tube effect that doesn't suit me. It is too overblown. I do like the effect of being able to lock down the aperture a couple stops. But it just doesn't look natural. And I do 3 simple corrections in my photos....slight exposure, clarity, and a curve adjustment. Most of that is just because I choose to shoot full raw format instead of allowing Nikon to edit the data in camera. I don't even use Photoshop! Too expensive!

I have used a Norman for events and once at the track. Just wasn't for me. I do find that alot of the photos using those setups have that light tube effect...I find shoe flashes provide a more even flash, albeit at lower power levels.

There are plenty of photos I take that have too much flash that end up on my website. They're there because somebody else might have a thought to buy one....not because it kicks a**. Compromises artistic integrity for the chance of a few dollars...eh....only matters to me.

To each his own....

http://www.MichaelHillPhoto.com

LMAO....this has just gotten funny as hell......I dont dare to submit any of my photos up but I do know that both John and Mike have seen my work.... and what they have said about it I respect because I know that they are trying to help me get better

"Just a hack with a camera" :) Yea Right!!

www.baphotos.myphotoalbum.com 

I go to other tracks to learn more from other picture takers. I'm one of them that learned the trade on my own and made mistakes but the hill is getting shorter

I've been to Cali alot more the last three season talking with John; Steve; Steve; Paul; M&M and other asking question and seeing what I can do better. And I thank them for all there help

You learn something new every day in this field of work if you don't think so you'll be left behind really quick

Brian 

"TURN AROUND; MATE !"