Forum: SCRAFAN.COM Forum (go)
Moderators: ljennings

The way I heard it is that The PAS is a 1/2 mile on the outside and Manzy a 1/2 mile on the inside. And at Manzy the distance between the front straight and the back straight is greater therefore the turns are wider and more gradual. I have heard The PAS referred to as a paper clip by a flat track motorcycle racer because of how narrow the turns are at the end of long straights. The configuration does make for exciting slide jobs with 410 sprints.

Mike Brown

I don't know about that Kenny I seem to remember a certain driver krusin into the Gasman and then later the Demon in turn 4 at Manzy.

ROB

I'm not saying that some people haven't made foolish mistakes at Manzy, but the price is higher and you know it. I like the PAS fine, but you know as well as anybody that the stakes go up at the big 1/2 mile.

Kenny

you've finally got it right

ROB

CYA at the 360 show in Oildale this Sat.

ROB

Hey Rob and Kenny. How would you compare the Calistoga half-mile to Manzanita? I know Calistoga is alot flatter without the high banking, but it is certainly a dangerous track to run. I've been to Manzanita once a few years back and of course to Calistoga several times and years ago when it was run by NARC. I saw Billy Anderson end up in the trees in the first turn there. BTW Rob, Lucas Oil is now the official sponsor of CRA.

"When the green flag drops the bullshit stops" - The 
Great GP

Someone asked where I went. I was just watching to see the evolution, the interpretations, the evaluations, the appraisals, the judgments, the insults. What started as an observation about car counts at Perris -- and why they have dropped 10 cars or so from '07 -- turned (over time) into a discourse on 410s and 360s by about the 8th lap of what is now almost a 50-lapper.

When my hair was blonde rather than gray, I used to watch Offy 270s, Chevy 283s and DOHC Fords of more or less the same displacement put on fine and dandy shows at Ascot. No one complained much. And when I was in grade school, I used to watch Offy 220s, Ford VE 85s, and stroked GMC 235s run at Carrell and think -they- were pretty darned special. (The "darned" was for Lance. Hi, Lance.)

Now I like to go to Madera every so often and watch guys run 500- (and more) cubic-inch asphalt supermodifieds (which, by the way, are supposed to run on the new track in Bee Field this October)... and Reno to watch 60-year-old, 3,300-cubic-inch, Greatest Generation stuff roar around the pylons at 450 to 500 kts.

So maybe it's like drugs. Ya gotta do more and more to get the same old fix. Who knows?

OK guys, lets stir it up some more. You;re missing the point, it's not all about 360's vs. 410's. It's $$$$$$$. When we race USAC/CRA at the PAS it costs us owners more $$$$$. I stopped racing there because USAC decided we needed $400 radios to tell my driver where to start because they are too darn lazy to have a chalk board like every other race track in the country. They also make us rent a transponder for $25 every race. Plus our pit passes are higher there than any other track (supposedly for a point fund)(ask Tony Jones how that worked out) Then on top of all that, I had a garage full of Hoosier RC1 right rear tires, and they change the tire rule to DT3's so we all have to buy new tires on top of all the other extra expense, I just couldn't afford to play with the big boys any more. And thats right after I went out and bought a 410. So I tried, and so have a lot of other small budget teams, but the fields are a lot smaller now because we just got tired.

I don't care if they run 360's or 410's at the PAS next year, as long as it isn't USAC!! Stevie O. I appoligize to you up front, I think you are doing as good a job as they will let you do, but the rest of USAC is in my opinion USUCK.

"We built some giant big blocks for Al Hamiton for year's you know, one of the greatest guys in racing"
"But, believe it or not in 1980 we had a thousand horsepower from a 560 inch big block"
"You couldn't hook it up at all, their was definitely no tire that would even work and then there was no wing rule, so we ended up putting up these really wild looking wings on there, kind 'a got it to half ass work pretty good "
"The horsepower completely overcame everything we could do but, when the Outlaws came up there the Big Blocks would definitely give them you know what, they couldn't keep up, that's why the rule change." (410 Limit)
-Ron Shaver

Kenny,
1985 was the year CRA went to the 410 displacement limit.as a "Cost Saving Rule" but, with limited engines the cost savings only lasted so long, because you reach the point of diminishing returns on time and effort required to build a competitive engine.
The funny thing is that if you went to open fuel and engine rules, with a little ingenuity you could build a competitive engine for about 1/2 the cost of today's limited 410. Don't believe me? Ask Ron Shaver or any other top professional engine builder.

Don

Just my take, we loved running and supported the 410's every week for a number of years. We truly miss the PAS, the fans and the teams with CRA. We still have our 410 cars and will dust them off occasionally and they are not going anywhere. We have chosen the ASCS 360 group basically for three reasons, the biggest is 1) USAC (need I say more), 2) Charles and I now own our own machine shop which keeps him busy about 7 days a week, 14 hours a day (although he will always find time to race, Ha Ha) and 3) right now the economy costs us about $400 in fuel to travel to Perris and back.

Regarding ASCS, I don't think anyone is saying that they want the 410's to go away, I think they are wanting ASCS to initiate a 410 association. I would like to see this myself, anybody but USAC. We do not have any driver here in Arizona that dominates the ASCS group. It is a very competitive group. I personally do not like qualifying. The length it takes, drys out the track and I personally am not impressed with a driver out on the track by himself, I like to watch them race for it. Also if you watch the stands, most show up after qualifying. The way the rules are set up for the ASCS a driver has to race for his positions not only in the main but in the heats as well. They never know where they are going to start because of the passing point system and the invert so they have to give it their best all the time. This stops the sandbagging which we have all played a part in one time or another. As far as the short track vs. the 1/2 mile. A lot of the drivers prefer the 1/2 mile and as long as you have a maintenance program it is not that much harder on the motors. The track prefers the cars on the short track. The 360 motors of today are alot better than they used to be. Massey Motorsports has provided Charles with top notch cars and top notch motors.

As far as the Victorville races, we have had races scheduled here on all but one of the dates. We will I'm sure be to some of them in the future. We will also be running the "Topless Tour" this year again in August and can't wait to run the 410. With the economy the way it is, I don't care whether it's a 360 or a 410 as long as there is non-wing racing, tracks and great fans to support it and keep it alive. Hope all is well with everyone and hope to see everyone at the end of the year.

Gayle Davis

Now those were some great post's, thanks guys.

Don I saw some of Shavers stuff at Portland and at the Copper Classic when I came home . A lot of guys had Donavan's and Rodec's in those mods as well. I remember it when they started running fast enough to make the Indy car race. Remember Gary Bettnhausen's mod with a big car dove tail and a long nose? I digress LOL... 85 was the year I came back from the Pacific Northwest and man that was a good year for CRA. The gas man was on the way, Billy was coming and Shuman and Leland ruled Manzy but that crazy old flat tracker, Wirth, could steal the show along with a number of other California boys Nofsinger etc. I was so excited to see those guys again I hit my head going through the arches at Manzy..LOL I digress again.

We all know hooking it up is the problem with the big ponies and weight up front in the early day's of the big block. "The funny thing is that if you went to open fuel and engine rules, with a little ingenuity you could build a competitive engine for about 1/2 the cost of today's limited 410. Don't believe me? Ask Ron Shaver or any other top professional engine builder". That is something that many people have known for a long time but why would they change it, only if they had to, right? Think how much fun it would bring back along with the excitement of some old fashioned American ingenuity that used to be such a big part of this sport, and a price break. A win, win, situation except for the powers that be.

Now as far as ASCS running the 410 show. I'm sure than more than just a few of us who has given it a thought, thought of the Arizona man who is in a position right now to take it over if that were to happen. How fitting would that be..=

What was the subjuct again? LOL Good things are where you find them.

Kenny

Big Fish, if your talking about Ron Shuman, as the man in Arizona taking over a 410 program @ the PAS, I hear rumors of grumblings from the ASCS teams about him @ Manzy or wherever they run. Personally I very much like Shuman (though I don't know him) and would be interested in his return. I thought he did a terrific job for the racers, but unfortunately was not supported by a majority of them. The grumblings I think go with the territory. Any talk of ASCS @ Perris though still strikes a nerve, not only because of the 360 issue, but also the no qualifying, passing points and pill draws. I can still hear my Dad saying, "Now we have to get to the track early for qualifying so we can hear the engines." It is what I grew up with. I am sure car owners know more about the workings of USAC, but I remain optimistic that the new regime of that racing organization is now on the way to turning things around.

"When the green flag drops the bullshit stops" - The 
Great GP

Well not at PAS per say, but Shuman getting in USAC's hair does bring a smile to my face. I love USAC, but not here permanently, just a visitor thank you. Personally, I'm old school and like qualifying and if I don't see the water truck I'm late. Car count is important of course but I just can't see the California or AZ boys just running 360's. A sprint car series on our side without the big engines is just not our style and hasn't been for a long time. Yes, there has been some small Ci engines that have done well in the past and Sherman has done very well with a very expensive 360 on Manzy's 1/2 against the 410's, but that all went out the window in the late 60's for the most part. It might not make a difference to the NASCRAP fans what's under the hood or who built it but in our sport those things have always mattered and hopefully always will.

Kenny

Interesting read there Gayle. A certain someone ( ) seemed to want to echo such thoughts (about the sanctioning body) upon a visit I made a couple of trips back when I asked a question. I think our certain someone (omg, you all know who I'm talking about...lol) stopped short of saying anything official. Not sure if it was because of my well known position on this issue or if he would have gotten started and then wouldn't have stopped! Ha!

I will look forward to seeing you all again on the midwest tour. glad to hear you coming again. Marks car again I presume?

"TC" said: The grumblings I think go with the territory ............BINGO!

To lead an organization has it's rewards and its headaches. From Shuman to Ted Johnson (RIP), Shane Carson (the 'promoter'), Bert Emick, Emmitt Hahn, Rollie Helmling, Keith Hall and others, I have witnessed "in person" all these leaders (and others) in discussions that weren't on the friendlier side of the scale. Heck, I have even bared the brunt of a car owner, a driver and even a crew members wrath. It's a job that takes a strong will to want to do. If one were to walk in those shoes for a spell, one would really have an appreciation to what that job really takes.

Nice post Gayle

I was at Ventura last week and I was talking to a lady about Quarter Midgets, and I am a old time QMA racer, but that's besides the point. She told me that USAC, actually she told me USUC took over QMA about 7 or 8 years ago and about ruined the sport with useless fees. You had to join USAC just to get into the pit area for kids racing, let alone buy a pit pass. It seems everything that USAC touches turns too, well you can fill in the blank.

Gayle, I also like hearing your response on qualifying. I heard another poster saying Pea Picks sucks. However, my experience as a "FAN" was that this system was great after seeing it at Lakeside KS for a TNT Bandit Show. The track stayed much better because hot laps did not take place until 7, the first race was at 7:30, eventhough there was not a large car count about 30 or so for the Ron Shuman classic, the drivers all got to run 2 heat races, so in total their was 6 heat races for the night, plus a semi. But I think this is the same format for the Osky classic when it wasn't a USAC race even with large car counts. This would be perfect for Perris when they are having trouble getting car counts. Every position in a heat race would be hard fought, and cars would not pull in the pits after they thought they couldn't get a transfer spot. (You hardly ever see a car pull in at Ventura, unless their car is broken in a heat race because they know they will have to start further back in the semi). I agree with everything Gayle says about Pea Picks, and with the time it takes to get to Perris, the heat, low car counts, why not try the TNT Bandit format once and see how the drivers, owners, and fans like it. We can all arrive later, see more racing, have a better track, what's the down side (some might say more action IE crashing, but this aint' no sissy sport anyway, besides the slow cars start in the front of heat races anyway).

Raj, Perris has been getting low car counts 22-27 for the last 2 years, they have only been bumped up when the Midwest drivers come out the spring or fall, or special holiday races, with a few exceptions, check the stats on SCRA.com if you don't believe. This 10 car drop you are talking about is probably from 06, or in reality from the SCRA days, but I haven't checked the records from those years so I could be completey wrong. I do know Victorville's 2nd race had a good car count and that was a fun evening!

PS We miss Charley and his better half in CA, hope to see you guys at the races, maybe the Wags races, if not the Oval Nationals.

JD said "Perris has been getting low car counts 22-27 for the last 2 years, they have only been bumped up when the Midwest drivers come out the spring or fall, or special holiday races, with a few exceptions, check the stats on SCRA.com if you don't believe. This 10 car drop you are talking about is probably from 06, or in reality from the SCRA days."

Yeah; this is my take -exactly-. Things always thin out during the summer as many of the boys of February, March and November have other things to do. I tried to exclude most of them from my list of 14, however.

Gayle: We miss Charlie's jokes at the Old Chicago. I think you may have a good argument here on the pill draw if we can add something thing like Cary Faas's (or Jack Gardner's?) spin on it at V-Ville for fan interest. Sweeten the pot with some creative ideas like the ones Cary comes up with for the open shows. Possibly also run a trophy dash -after- the heats for the four cars that passed the most cars -during- the heats. Most of the Perris shows are two-sanction programs now. There would be plenty of time to insert a T dash (or "passing masters" dash) before the B Main for four cars that aren't going to run the B Main, anyway.

Ziggy's comments about the $400.00 radios and $550.00 worth of transponders (if you run every show at Perris) points again to the "have" vs. "have-not" deal. As oriented as they may be to their bread-and-butter, mega-buck, Midwest series in which many teams are so flush they're running a primary and backup in all six asphalt and clay series with rock-and-roll-show budgets, I wonder if USAC upper management understands what it's like to run a single car in a single series out -here-.

USAC brought a lot to the table for Jimmy, Donny and Keith when they (said they) could no longer afford to work with Ron... not the least of which was big money at the back gate (as well as more fan draw) for two of those the track operators in the fall. The trade-offs must have looked good at the time: "Here's a turn-key show with a big payday at the end of the season." Hard to blame guys who aren't making a ton of money providing the racers and owners with a place to play all year. Are we all willing to give up The Big Payoff in November for something like ASCS, or Cary's & Jack's, or Ron's, or some other model that's better suited to the realities for guys like Zig, etc.?

Okay, NOW... wrestle with -that- for a few days. Hahahahahaha.

What I've driven all around the barn trying to say is that I don't think the answers are all that simple for any of the parties like Gayle & Charlie, Ziggy, and the rest of those who are laying out a LOT of cash to entertain themselves -and- the rest of us. I sure enjoy seeing people like Jim Naylor, Cary and Jack coming up with attempts at constructive alternatives, however. Makes it all more... entertaining.

Are we all willing to give up The Big Payoff in November for something like ASCS, or Cary's & Jack's, or Ron's, or some other model that's better suited to the realities for guys like Zig, etc.?

Not 100% certain how that was meant although I can come up with a couple of guesses. One thing is for certain, there was an Oval Nationals prior to USAC and there would be one after USAC as well. It's Donnie's race and he decides who sanctions it. Terry McCarl will be running the "Ultimate Challenge" at Oskaloosa with his third sanctioning body. I think sometimes people forget (or dont realize) that most all events belong to the promoters not the sanctioning bodies.