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Topic: What happened to quality motorsports pictures?
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Page 3 of 9 of 176 replies
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February 25, 2008 at
05:18:06 PM
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This thread has been good food for peoples thoughts, during cold winter months and the itchy feeling we get when we all want to get out and race. Plain and Simple: There is a great core group of Photogs in the country, and must say, I have tried and guide as many starters in this game as anyone, and love helping people who really want in for the (right) reasons. And you are all right, we all started out with a K-1000 Pentax with a 50mm lens and tri-x black and white film and then grew into our own niche. The only thing I was making my voice heard on was: The topic was, WHERE ARE THE QUALITY IMAGES at Anymore, and I simply told the Honest to God Truth about the photography industry. Nothing More. With the age of Corel, Photoshop CS3 and hundreds of titles for photo edit software, its not in the eye of the lensman or lenswoman anymore, its how many clicks one can do propery in the software applications. I have several good friends, who have taken their years of image skills, and added a realm of artwork, that has not been affordable to most photogs for decades. Now, every print is a magazine cover, every print is a custom, one of a kind piece, every print is designed specifically for an event or the driver or corporate sponsor in mind. Then add a medium priced printer, some good media and BOOM, your in....BUT ITS APPARENT, everyone has way (TOO) much time on their hands on a subject like this...LOL
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February 25, 2008 at
05:59:42 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: Johns Racing Photos on February 24 2008 at 11:09:32 AM
I am not sure why this suprises you Stan. The same discussion happened on here about a year ago. You say your happy with you D70 and kit lens in one sentence and then that you have an off camera flash, battery pack, high speed lens, and are considering getting the top of the line Nikon prosumer body. ??? Nothing wrong with that. Or anyone else that wants to spend the money.
And you can go to CostCo spend about $1k and go to a track buy a pit pass, walk to the infield and start shooting. Some guys will stick with it and learn how to use the equipment and others will eventually see how much work it is and give up. Less than 1% will even read the owners manual to find out how their gear works. Even less will put any thought into the photos they take, rather they will just snap away and see what they get. Afterall there are no post processing costs.
The worst part is the folks that will give their photos away or trade them for shirts/hats. No matter how good your photos are you can not compete with free. And without knowing Al's specific situation or some of the other great photographers out there, I would venture that this topic is the exact reason you are seeing them at less and less sprint races. I know I used to hit about 100 nights of racing a year. The last few years that has started tapering off. Not because I am not shooting. Just shooting other things.
It is okay for you to not take it too seriousely Stan. To each their own. But when someone spends 10-15 developing their business and skills and another $10k - $20k in equipment as well as nearly every free moment of their time, well those folks are going to take themselves and their profession seriousely.
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I didn't see the discussion from a year ago so I didn't realize the photographers were arguing about this. It seems kind of pointless to me because most of the ones I know do it as a labor of love and what they sell amounts to the equivalent of a part time job. Debating about that amounts to arguing over who's better at their part time job or hobby. That seems rather pointless to me.
I'm not part of the Sprint photographers "in crowd" so I wouldn't know. I just shoot all types of racing at a few tracks near where I live. The big Sprint tracks are hundreds of miles from where I live so I'm out of the loop. Apparently I don't want to go to any of those places because from what I'm reading here they wouldn't exactly welcome me with open arms. 
Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)
Website
www.gotomn.com
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February 26, 2008 at
02:50:00 AM
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I don't believe there very many sprint car photogs out there making a living at doing this. If they are, besides being good photographers, they must be very good business men.
It's all about the love of the sport and a love of taking photos. For me, the crazyness of being out there close to the action is a big part of it. Even more than that I love having a new batch of photos on my computer.
During the 90s I worked in the auto industry and went through a plant closing. I got a few bucks from the company and worked for a couple of seasons as a racing photographer. If it rained, I didn't get paid. Also, I call those years my "lost years" because for all the racing photography I did, most of it wasn't of sprint cars, most of the money came from doing local stock car tracks.
My wife suggested a "real" job and the skills learned in sprint car photography earned a job for someone that actually pays me to take pictures of sporting events. There would be nothing neater than to take just sprint car shots, but for me anyway that never has been possible.
To anyone that can make a living at taking sprint car photos, you have my deepest respect. Jim Fisher
www.fscpictorial.com
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March 02, 2008 at
12:40:01 PM
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Jim, there was a time when you could make a living doing this but I wouldn't have survived if it wasn't for my Cup stuff to offset it, especially during the week. You need dealers in various parts of the country and it takes time and travel to set this up. It also helps when you have other photograpers at tracks selling your stuff as well, especially in places where they can't get any, like Australia. Having that one go-to photo that people want like the Steve and Sammy shot is a must also. Even in retirement I sold a couple of those last week, 5,600 and counting......
With digital, those days will never happen again. People would rather have their own shots than somebody else's and digital has made this a possibility. I feel bad for the quality guys that are out there these days, especially the few that are tring to make a buck out of this sport, very tough sell!
As for the lack of quality guys out there, NOT A CHANCE, there's a lot of them and a few that haven't yet been mentioned in this thread include; Steve Lafonde, Cali musician who's got a great eye and even better work; Jack Kromer, the PA Postman who's head shots and stills are my favorite ever; Frank Smith, a Buckeye with the best ability in the State, always improving; Tim Aylwin, the kid from the South who gets better every day and is already better than most; Mike Zortman a former track worker who picked up a camera instead, the first digital guy I really noticed, the real deal; Max Dolder, a pro's pro who has more good stuff in his closet than most guys have ever thought about shooting.
Then there's a few of the Gods that I'm not sure were mentioned yet, like Ken Coles, John Mahoney, Mike Arthur, Randy Jones, Al Consoli and the great Gene Marderness.
Some guys that were mentioned or have replied to this forum include Dennis Kreiger, Dave Hill, Travis Branch, Doug Johnson, Mark Funderburk and John Meirhoff and all of these fine folks have great stuff available for sale as well, help 'em out, now more than ever! Take It Easy......
PS Mike from Hoseheads West is a digital newbie who is for real also, great non-wing work from SoCal
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March 02, 2008 at
02:33:18 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: ImageWorks on February 23 2008 at 12:49:28 PM
The main problem with fans and sponsors and of course racers being able to obtain QUALITY IMAGES, is this: There are a zillion people out there that have spent a thousand bucks or two and that made them pro photogs instantly, no training, no background, let alone, no talent. These are the people who want a free pit pass, get into the races for free, then never ever do much to pay the sport back, other than give away sub-standard photos, so they can get in the pits again next week for a free ride. Its, a growing problem. If you dont believe me, ask good friend, Randy Jones, one of the best sprint car photogs in our era. Jones will tell you the real smak down on this very issue. Al Consoli is yet another great person who knows the business and how it has changed so dramatically since the age of digital and why there are hundreds of not thousands of good people, who just want a free ticket, so they go do the American Dream, buy a mid range camera, a lens and two battery flash, and then WHALA.... YOU GET WHAT YOU GET.......
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Exactly the reason that I choose to shoot color print. I have to compose EVERY shot, as it's just not feasible to just shoot 100's of shots trying to capture the "one". Joe anybody can do that with digital. I like to think that I'm keeping the art of photography alive by doing it that way, plus I look forward to seeing what I've captured after the event is over! It might be more of a hassle, but I enjoy the anticipation factor..................
"RED EYES, WHITE KNUCKLES, and DIRTY BRITCHES!"
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March 02, 2008 at
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Not that it matters, it's "VOILA" which from my grade 9 french lessons meant, 'there it is', if my faded memory serves me right. Take It Easy.....
PS "VOICI" meant, 'here it is'......
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March 06, 2008 at
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As input to the original question that was posted, I'd check out the Sprint Car photo section of the Williams Grove message board for some pretty good stuff on a weekly basis from about a dozen different photographers covering half a dozen different central PA Winged Sprint tracks and the occasional jaunt out to the mid-west. http://www.williamsgrove.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8
Some good stuff from some good, young up and coming photogs on there from time to time.
And for the record, my take on the question of giving away stuff for free is that in many cases, due to sales exclusivity agreements at many of the tracks nobody but the official track photographer usually has rights to sell anything at the track. Given that reality, often times posting free photos on the web is the only option to get your work out to a mass audience and seen outside the limited space you get in racing print and magazines.
Times have changed. If you take a better photo than the next guy, it deserves to be seen and often times you are not allowed to take any money for the privilege of showing it to anyone. Then to top it all off, you spend tons of money on good gear and paid all your travel expenses out of your own wallet. Serious racing photography is the toughest business you will every pay for the privilege of doing.
If you are in a position where you CAN make money on this, more power to you, but don't piss and moan when someone posts something on the web without sneaking behind someone's back and taking money for it. You can't have it both ways !
2008 & 2007 Photo galleries: http://GreggObst.smugmug.com
Website: http://www.GreggObst.com
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March 07, 2008 at
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Time and time again it has been proven that the free market is best for everyone involved. It benefits the photographers (how HAVE to be good because of the competition), the racetrack / sanctioning body, and anyone who would be a customer. Exclusivity arrangements are bullshit, always have been, and were - by far - the biggest pain in my ass when I was still trying to be a racing photographer. All they cause is politics and petty bullshit in most cases. When you factor in the reality that there isn't enough money in it for most people to make a REAL living at it you really see how stupid they are. I'm all for requiring people to pay their dues by contributing via the media (that's just basic common sense) but when you consider that very few publications / websites pay for submissions by keeping someone who genuinely wants to risk their ass week in - week out trying to perfect their craft and wants to sell their work from doing so you really aren't helping ANYONE!
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March 08, 2008 at
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I still do not see how tracks can have exclusivity contracts because they really do not own the action on the track. It still really is about the drivers, sponsors and crews. I feel if a track needs exclusive contracts they have to have a contract with every driver crewmember and sponsor at the track. I had to put up with this a few years ago at a local track. One of my buddies who races there just told the promotor that he had a contract with me so their photog could not sell images of his car. The attitude warmed up slightly after that although his shooter was alway trying to rub me the wrong way on the results. I did not really care about his results as I was getting by far better results and getting them in print, which gave the track more publicity. The promotor slowly figured this out.
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March 09, 2008 at
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Reply to:
Posted By: spot1 on March 08 2008 at 02:35:26 PM
I still do not see how tracks can have exclusivity contracts because they really do not own the action on the track. It still really is about the drivers, sponsors and crews. I feel if a track needs exclusive contracts they have to have a contract with every driver crewmember and sponsor at the track. I had to put up with this a few years ago at a local track. One of my buddies who races there just told the promotor that he had a contract with me so their photog could not sell images of his car. The attitude warmed up slightly after that although his shooter was alway trying to rub me the wrong way on the results. I did not really care about his results as I was getting by far better results and getting them in print, which gave the track more publicity. The promotor slowly figured this out.
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Sprint Car photos aren't the only act in town and a person doesn't necessarily have to shoot from the infield to get a magazine shot. This shot of Bloomquist was taken from the other side of the fence and appeared in Dirt Late Model. My other subjects of interest include Street Rods, Motorcycles, landscape photos, trains and wildlife. I love photography and enjoy the challenge of getting a good photo regardless of the subject.
The classic Split Rock Light House shot Lake Superior
Donkey mugs for the camera on a trip to game farm with grandkids.
Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)
Website
www.gotomn.com
Photos
Blog
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March 09, 2008 at
06:02:16 PM
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Exclusive rights not necessary...
Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)
Website
www.gotomn.com
Photos
Blog
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March 10, 2008 at
11:07:39 AM
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Hey spot1, tell NASCAR they don't have exclusivity, then duck. Even though credentialed NASCAR photographers sign this 'deal', many still some of their works to the public, at least that's what I heard, lmao. Take It Easy.....
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March 10, 2008 at
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I can not see where the exclusivity agreement would work out for anyone, tracks included. The only way you could stop someone from taking photos using the exclusivity argument is to ban all photography except for the one you have the agreement with. I would think it would take a lot of security guys running around to stop all of the people I see with cameras at the track.
As for an exclusive sales agreement, I don't see how they could legally do that either. They may be able to charge you a vender fee to sell, but I doubt they could deny your right to work, especially for tracks on public property. Of course, I guess they could go the route of absolutely no sales of anything in the pits.
The same applies for NASCAR or any other of the sports for that matter. The big difference there is they have lawyers and deep pockets. Irregardless of whether your right or wrong they can and will outlast you in court. NASCAR has for the most part given up on tracking down photographers that sell photos. They have realized that the only way to control it would be to ban any camera equipment at the event except credentialed photographers. I used to sell my NASCAR stuff on my sight and the only contact I had with NASCAR was them asking me if I would like to have my photos officially licensed.
Although I do not generally give my photos away. I have to those that have bought photos from me in the past and I know will buy them again in the future. If I was expected to give my photos to everyone for the "privilage" shooting I wouldn't go to that track. If it was widespread I wouldn't be shooting. $20k can buy a lot of photos from some one esle. Why spend the money, take the risks(yes it can be dangerous) and not see most of the race if you just want some photos for yourself and "the guys".
Oh, and Stan is right. There is a lot of other stuff out there to shoot. Anyone serious about being a working photographer has to branch out.
I can't beleive this thread is still going
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March 10, 2008 at
02:13:44 PM
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March 10, 2008 at
04:56:12 PM
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I love that Mod shot where you can see the drivers eyes. He must have been getting way sideways that night John.
You probably couldn't call me a working photographer, I'm a "working" railroad clerk but getting close enough to retirement that I'm starting to plan for it. Up here the dirt tracks don't grant exclusive rights agreements but there is a lot of competition and always a track photographer. I skip around and chase Sprints, Late Models and Modifieds to different tracks and wouldn't want to tie myself to one track. Over the past decade I have gotten to know those guys and they're comfortable that I'm not going to stand in their line of fire or try to take their business. They know I shoot for the paper and submit to the magazines and don't mind if I sell to a driver who asks for a specific shot. I don't walk the pits peddling my pictures from hauler to hauler and they are comfortable with that.
We're fortunate to have a good group of guys who for the most part don't step on each others toes. The ones that irritate us up here are people from the local newspapers who stand in front of us in victory lane. The papers send them out on assignment so they don't have a clue what they're doing. There's one guy from the Princeton paper who comes out only for the WoO and one of these days we're gonna' duct tape him to a light pole.
Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)
Website
www.gotomn.com
Photos
Blog
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March 10, 2008 at
07:14:06 PM
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This message was edited on
March 10, 2008 at
07:17:31 PM by spot1
Duct 'em Stan. I had something like that a few years ago, not at a race track, but at a Welcome Home for a state champion basketball team (yeah, I have to shoot other stuff in order to keep doing the race photos). This one stupid crack (in this case the term applies) when one of the all-tournament players would be speaking stood about three feet away and directly in front for as long as he spoke with her point and shoot camera. I wanted to fling that camera into the wall. And Mike, NASCAR can get away with that but a local track would have a harder time. I did do some checking into the exclusivity deal that the local track that hasseled me had and found it was nothing more than giving him the sole right to sell photos on track grounds. The promotor tried to tell me that I could not peddle my photos anywhere else either. I proved him wrong. And no I normally do not go around peddeling to anyone either. If someone wants a shot that I have, I will take their money for it. That's about as far as I take it.
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March 10, 2008 at
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Not to have a dog in the fight because I only have my old fashion Canon AE-1 to take photos for myself and for on my website. However, when I come across somebodys photo that is just breathtaking, I will buy that photo.
You talk about the local dirt tracks and anybody can take a camera and take pictures. There is a problem at State Fair Speedway (OKC) where twenty-plus year photogs have always donated their pictures to the booster club to help sell and generate money to the year end points fund. Well, a couple of years ago, somebody came in, got to be in the infield and took pictures. But he was doing this on his own and not donating any of the money to the point fund and also sold for almost free. It cuts into the long-time photogs little spending money and also cuts into the booster clubs contribution to the point fund. If you know anything about the local dirt track scene, they all want pictures of their "somebody" and buying pictures at the track is huge.
It is just sad that there are those who come in and take away from what the veterans had always tried to do to give back to the local racers.
David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com
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March 26, 2008 at
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This message was edited on
March 26, 2008 at
08:32:27 PM by TME Racing Photography
Reply to:
Posted By: Michael_Hill_Photographics on February 23 2008 at 01:03:57 AM
I don't know that it's so much that the quality is gone...so much as it's not publicly available. I will say as a photographer myself that there are MAYBE 6-8 guys that shoot short track open wheel stuff that I respect. The VAST majority fail to not only display work that is well composed, well exposed, and well shot, but that shows some form of style at all. I think MOST of the photographers out there to be just glorified point and shoot chimps with better equipment. Normans mean nothing if you don't think out what you are shooting first.
I own the fact that I think 90% of the stuff I shoot is s*hit to me as well. Thats why I am goin rally racing with my rig this year. With that at least you can choose a unique spot to compose your shots....a circle track affords far less opportunities for creativity.
You are dead on about the Hockett photo though! TME...."The Magicians Eye"....I have seen his work from Arizona for several years now.....I have to give him credit for trying to shoot photos with a different style.....very slow shutter speeds....but it aint working. The end result looks horrible to me. And ya....the huge watermark on a poorly composed shot...come on! If I shot stuff that looked like that....I certainly wouldn't want my logo being clearly visible!
Oh well....to each his own! I need more vodka apparently!
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hmmm interesting.
I guess my pictures suck?
I see it this way. I'm shooting with no flash and a 6.1mp camera that isn't made anymore. On top of that I'm shooting with a lens that isn't worth the $100 I spent on it. If the shots I take aren't up to your liking, oh well. Hopefully once I get a new camera I'll be able to fit in with the crowd? I still have no plans of shooting with a flash so if that's the problem then I guess I'll never be good enough.
Rafael Alvarez
623-225-4384
support@tmeracingphotography.com
MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/tme_racing
www.tmeracingphotography.com
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March 26, 2008 at
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Yup They suck, not good enough....You will never fit in. Ha! Just Kidding!!!! You Rock Rafael!!!!!!!!!!
Keep up the good work, wake em up shake em up and Rock This World!!!
Bruce
http/www.cmpvideo2go.com
http://www.newtonmotorsports31.com/
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March 26, 2008 at
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Pretty poor stuff there... Rafael
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