Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: hosehead

That's right Bruce, passion and a love for this sport and the people that are in it are a prerequisite for any photographer in this sport. If that's all it was based on you would be at the top of the list. You are a credit to this sport and the people in it. I'm glad to be able to call you a friend after all we have shared over emails, although we have never actually met in person.. Keep up the good work.

Kenneth L Clever, aka BIGFISH!

The track I'm at mostly there has been an explosion of photographers last year; with people buying DSLR camera from local chain store and becoming a Race Photographer

Here a quote from a while knowing picture taker: "Seems that anyone with an extra 1k for a DSLR kit from CostCo is an immediate photographer"

It's funny that some of these photographers only hit maybe 10 shows a year when most of the other photographers go to 80 to 100 shows and try to make a living at it and those new photographer give their stuff away free

Brian 

"TURN AROUND; MATE !"

Very few are making a living taking dirt track photos. I know one, maybe two up where I live but up here a person has to shoot all classes to make a go of it. In my case I take photos primarily for the racing paper I write for, submit a few to the magazines and post a few on my website. I sell by word of mouth, if somebody wants something they know me and how to get ahold of me. At the end of the year after processing costs I might make $500 which amounts to beer, gas and hot dog money. I don't walk from hauler to hauler selling pictures and probably 99% of the sales are to drivers in the beginner type classes. Up here that's where the biggest opportunity is if a person is inclined to want to sell is with the entry classes. I don't give any photos away, I just don't aggressively go around selling at the tracks. I'm not into the competition of trying to sell photos and I don't many of the driver cards which are a big part of the photo business up here. I can do cartooning like the avatars on my posts as well as some graphics but designs are time consuming and I'm too slow to crank out that much work. The day job comes first and the last thing I want to do is have to work on graphics at the end of a long work day.

I guess what I meant by not taking this too seriously was from my own perspective. The main reason I shoot is to have photos to display in my articles and that's all it's ever been about for me. I don't go to those hallowed Sprint Car places like Knoxville or Eldora but just sit back and wait for an occasional Sprint special at the local tracks. In that respect I personally don't take it very seriously and was kind of shocked to see the rivalry between the shooters. I didn't realize that existed because I've never seen it locally.

I grew up around photography, played with my dad's old light meter and watched him process black and white photos in the basement when I was five. He taught me a lot and I went to some classes 25 or so years ago but didn't start concentrating on taking racing photos until about ten years ago. I've always had SLRs since the old film days but my gear would be considered mid range because that's all I can afford. If a person doesn't understand the relationship between aperature, ISO and shutter speed they're never going to get a good photo no matter how much their equipment is worth. Case in point, I've gotten center spreads in racing magazines using a friend's Nikon fixed 400mm as well as my 70-300mm kit lens. His 400mm Nikon was worth about $7,000 and my kit lens that I use for long shots is worth $150. His lens was kept in an aluminum case and had to be treated with kid gloves. I just throw my kit lens in the bag and I'm good to go. The magazines pay the same for a shot regardless of what it was taken with and probably nobody knows the difference. I use the kit zoom in certain situations but also have some faster pro type lenses. Anyone familiar with lens reviews knows that some of the budget lenses get very good ratings within a specific focal range. If you keep that in mind and stay within that range image quality can be as good you'd get with a pro lens according to product reviews. One Late Model shooter I know who gets a ton of work in racing papers and magazines including Speedway Illustrated uses a fixed 105mm manual focus he bought on eBay for $50. He's a salesman by profession and he's good at creating driver cards mostly for the Late Model and Modified crowd. In other words, "it ain't the chrome that makes 'em go."

So I don't take myself seriously, I accomplish my goal of getting photos for the paper and even sell a few once in a while. I'm getting close to retirement so I'm not about to go out and spend thousands of dollars on high end specialty glass because I'd never recoup my investment. I did buy an 85mm fixed f1.8 recently which is a popular lens at our local tracks and am looking at the D300 with it's improved noise reduction as my next purchase. I've got a couple digital bodies so that I've got a backup. A flash with an external power supply and an off camera bracket. Works for me up here in the tundra. Pretty good stuff that's functional just like the old truck I drive. When I pull up to a stop light the guys in the new F150's look down their noses at my '93 Ranger but I pass them at the next gas station and haven't made a payment in years. That's kind of how I feel about this photography discussion, like I'm sitting at a stop light with my D70s and somebody pulled alongside me in a D2X with big Norman spotlights, looked down their nose at me and revved their motor

Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)

Website
www.gotomn.com
Photos
Blog

Had your vision checked lately?

"Just the facts ma'am", Sgt. Joe Friday, Detective, 
LAPD


Loyal WoO supporter since 1978 

I am not sure why this suprises you Stan. The same discussion happened on here about a year ago. You say your happy with you D70 and kit lens in one sentence and then that you have an off camera flash, battery pack, high speed lens, and are considering getting the top of the line Nikon prosumer body. ??? Nothing wrong with that. Or anyone else that wants to spend the money.

And you can go to CostCo spend about $1k and go to a track buy a pit pass, walk to the infield and start shooting. Some guys will stick with it and learn how to use the equipment and others will eventually see how much work it is and give up. Less than 1% will even read the owners manual to find out how their gear works. Even less will put any thought into the photos they take, rather they will just snap away and see what they get. Afterall there are no post processing costs.

The worst part is the folks that will give their photos away or trade them for shirts/hats. No matter how good your photos are you can not compete with free. And without knowing Al's specific situation or some of the other great photographers out there, I would venture that this topic is the exact reason you are seeing them at less and less sprint races. I know I used to hit about 100 nights of racing a year. The last few years that has started tapering off. Not because I am not shooting. Just shooting other things.

It is okay for you to not take it too seriousely Stan. To each their own. But when someone spends 10-15 developing their business and skills and another $10k - $20k in equipment as well as nearly every free moment of their time, well those folks are going to take themselves and their profession seriousely.

John nailed it.........there are toooooooo many out there willing to give stuff away for very little or trade ... last summer during the Nationals IW, at least I think I know who he is, and I were contacted about some images for a outlaw team. He quoted his price and I quoted mine.. I later recieved and e-mail for the team saying they had found somebody to do it for shirts...... Ya know I never saw the car in the ad it was supposed to be for.. So any way ........ Yesterday I bought some new stuff and while the store owner was figuring the bill I excused my self and went to the car to retrieve a box... Upon returning he had the bill so I opened the box and started laying out an assortment of brand new in the package t-shirt.... He said he as sorry but they are now only taking cash now... Can you believe that....I mean if we are so low that we have to be paid in shirts you would think that a retail store would take them as cash... Damn who would have thought..

I frequent a web site that is a world wide community of auto photogs... all the way from Corp. guys for the auto industry to guys like me.. From F1, Rally, Drag, Nascar, IRL to guys like me and let me tell you these guys pull no punched when it comes to the use of their images....From magazines to web sites, from team usage to private sales, and trust me they DON'T give their stuff away...

I've seen images used as avitars or in other applications on websites that were flat stolen from HH and other places with the photogs name and logo still on the image.... That my friends is theft plain and simple.... No different that the music indusry and downloads... And you wonder why you don't see the good stuff... Some of the guys on this other site are now starting to bite the bullet and sue people for copyright infringment....And it doesn't seem to matter who you are, if the image wasn't bought with a specific use purpose, and trust me, they have use formulas wheather it be for magazine or web site, corp or personal they have rates and it aint cheap..

If HH chooses to sue me for using one of their pictures as a avatar for a few days to express a current topic on their forum, fine.

Duck Kenny duck!...........................I'm ducking as fast as I can..LOL

BIGFISH!

Actually it wouldn't be HH it would be the OWNER of the image...HH should have blocks to prevent the theft of the image from it's pages..He doesn't but should...

You can copy off the regular pages of this site, but on the forums you have to be a "power user" whatever that means, to copy. I would think intent would or should be a factor. I also think the way HOSEHEADS is so prominently displayed on their picture's that it could be a form of advertisement for this forum and the photographers as well depending on where and how it is used.. That is the reason those pictures are donated to the site, is it not? Using one of those pictures for a monetary gain or in some way that would hurt the photographers purse should be the consideration in my opinion, but that's just a opinion.

Kenny

OK, Kenny, duck faster LOL

...on the subject of the "owner" of the image.....I have never had a problem paying a photog for good photo's of my car and, if more good photo's come up I will buy them too, but inside that image is a "copy" of my property. Now before all the panties get in a bunch, I am not saying that you shouldn't be able to sell the image, but to get all puffy-chested about "ownership" of an image of someone else's property just doesn't seem right.

3rdturn wrote:

"Some of the guys on this other site are now starting to bite the bullet and sue people for copyright infringment...."

Heck; "NEW" photographer last year was selling my pictures last year, and displaying them on that person own web-site

Go out and buy a

Couple new bodies (D300) $4600

70 - 200 VR $1900

24 -70VR $1600

Oh yeah bodies/lens from the last couple years; computer programs ($1300) new laptop ($2300)

Anyone get the point yet ?

Brian 

"TURN AROUND; MATE !"

The image is owned by the person who shot it... Period... You might own the car but the image of that car is the property of the person taking the photo..I'm sorry, it's not about getting all puffy chested it's a hard cold fact that the photog owns the rights to the image and how that image is used.. Doesn't matter what it is..

Food for thought; What if a large team like Steve Kinser or even a Nascar team copywrited the "look", "image" or whatever of their car?

Let's say Kinser has his inside sideboard copywrited to where that image "cannot be used without consent". Would it be possible to copywrite the layout/image of the car and would a photog then be able to shoot it and/or sell the photo?

I'm guessing this must be somewhat possible otherwise more companies would be making a die-cast of every car under the sun.

Numbersusa.com 

Good question... I believe that it could be shot but not sold or used for anything with out the Kinser team permission..That opens up another ball of convolution..But, the photog still owns the right to the image he or she took.. I believe this is something that Dale Sr. did if I remember right, he either trademaked himself or something like that... I believe I read someplace that Ford is trying that now... It had to do with look or something like that...

Yes they could conceivably copyright the graphic design of their cars. I am sure that the sponsors have their logos copyrighted. However, none of that has anything to do with a photograph. Photographs are considered under copyright law to be art. Public figures, public landmarks, and other items that are displayed in public domain are not protected by the same copyright. If they were the supermarket tabloids would go out of business.

I can't take a picture of the Budwieser car and then sell t-shirts, hat, mugs and everything else based on the design but I can sell as many photos of the Budwieser car as people are willing to buy. There are some sanctioning bodies out there that try to control the sale of images but in the end all they have are expensive lawyers that can outlast the average photographer. If it actually does go to court they back down. Good luck getting your next set of credentials from them though.

Photographs have an implied copyright of 50 years. And it is transferrable to remaining family members in the event of death. There is a whole lot more to copyright law as it pertains to photographic images and digital media. It has been discussed here before and will no doubt come up again.

Again, I can not beleive this discussion has kept up about what you can or can not get for free from someone.

Here's a website that answers a lot a questions about photographic copyright laws and rights.

www.photolaw.net/faq.html

Great question; Kasey K and Tony S came and ran sprint cars at Skagit Speedway over the last few years. And I have several pictures of both of them and over the years of taking pictures of Kasey events here in Washington State

I was told I couldn't sell or use pictures of there face but I could use them driving the car; this was told to me by PR person at Skagit and Kasey K PR person

EDIT: LOOKS LIKE I HAVE TO TALK TO PR PEOPLE !

Brian 

"TURN AROUND; MATE !"