Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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The twelve car inversion helps a lot as well... If rookie 410 teams don't think they have more than a legitimate shot starting up front in both the heats and feature they're insane, especially with how much the 410s have to offer, like purse and prestige, with lower car counts to boot. Our high points teams are at a huge disadvantage.

Knoxville and Belleville (I'll even add one, Terre Haute) ARE too fast for midgets (I've seen midgets race at all three). Which is why they only race them there once a year. Even at once a year, all three places have seen guys be VERY lucky to walk away (recently Brad Loyet, not so recently Jay Drake at Terre Haute and Shane Scully at Belleville). As far as nonwing cars being safer than winged cars, not buying it. If nonwing cars ran at fast places like Knoxville, Terre Haute, etc weekly, I don't think you would still be thinking that they're all that safe. Safety equipment or not, everything goes out the window when you snap roll at 100 mph.

Honestly folks im a nice guy and hate starting fire storms like this lately  I like to stay on the friendly side of the officials and chill with my friends down there.  Just heard the rumor and wanted to know if it was true or not.   But Im kinda amazed lately of how many people are saying how dangerous Knoxville is  without wings? thats why they call most of us fans and the guys that assume the risk flip the mag switches instead of typing on these computers    The reason midgets where taking the nasty flips on Saturday is simple they have no wheelbase so when they roll over its much like rolling a basketball down the track, Watching those guys the other night was amazing they where goin way to fast but still managed to put a good show on.  I saw Jimmy Sills in turn 3&4 in the pits and asked him why he wasnt out there, he was assisting a younger driver and giving him some instruction, he told me hell if i was gonna get started in midgets again it wasnt gonna be here meaning they where goin faster then he was interested lol      Just for the record as ive said before I like both wing and non-wing  I agree with some post saying that it could be possible to lower the running cost of a race team these days and improve the racing at the same time.  But for the hell of it ill light one more match to the nay sayers of non-wing racing at knoxville do many of these guys remember seein non-wing races? perhaps many didnt have the privelage to see those days.  I wasnt sayin do away with wings completely just mix in a few non-wing shows, opposite of what they did in the late 70's and early 80's I remember at knoxville they would run wings occasionally then of course they got mandated with Gary Scotts crash.   But take a car from 1982 and put a brand spanking new sprinter next to it and just the technology would exlpain how much safer the new cars are both by weight, breakaway parts, and seat technology.   Knoxville in fact has lost a bit of banking through the years for insurance reasons im sure so they have slowed it down from what it used to be.      I know the non-wings are not going much faster than they used to heck just a few years ago Roger Ragers dad still had records in nebraska that hadnt been broke.   Damn does anyone remember when 20 seconds was a steaming time at Knox? lol

I clearly remember the non-wing sprints at Knoxville and would get chillbumps everytime the action began with the sprints getting sideways at the starter's stand setting up for the first turn Pizza Dude. I also remember watching sprints without roll bars. My concern for safety of the drivers simply overrules my passion. But at places like Gas City, Haubstab or Kokomo still offer excellent non-wing racing at considerably less risk.

It would be interesting to look at insurance tables to see what the perceived risk would be between winged and non-winged racing. Then again, every track is different and that's reflected in insurance rates. Based on my discussions over the past few years with promoters, drivers and insurance people, my opinion is that sprint car racing is a dangerous sport, regardless. I think the safety technology in the "bad old days" lagged far behind the speed technology. That's why there were so many deaths and injuries in the '70s and early '80s. If possible, it would be interesting to look at the causes of death and injury in those crashes to compare with today's situation. Again, just my opinion, but I'd think most of those crashes involved cages, seats and belts that were far from today's standards. Add in the tracks themselves. There were risk factors at tracks then that would never be allowed today. The technology has changed for the better. Even the track surface is prepared differently now than back then. Driver's helmets, suits, ect. are much better now. More testing is done in everything and there is better knowledge of the human body. Cars, themselves, are built better, even though they are lighter than back then. There is, overall, more emphasis put on safety and more direct knowledge of safety issues than ever before. I know that big and fast places like Knoxville have an aversion to wingless cars because of what they perceive as past history but the sport has changd so much since 1982. Had Gary Scott had the equipment and cars of today, maybe he walks away. Who Knows...

I like wingless sprint cars. It's a diffrent kind of racing. It's not so much about speed and horsepower but about perserverance and gettin' after they guy in front of you. It many ways, it's what real racing is all about.

Interestingly, there seems to be quite a divide in demographics among fans of the two. Promoters talk about how non-wing cars have younger drivers and older fans while winged cars have older drivers and younger fans. I guess older fans who remember racing the way it was still have an affection for the nuances of non-wing racing. I guess it appeals to younger drivers because of the cost factor and the best of those young drivers have a better chance of moving up in the racing world. Winged racing has the World of Outlaws and more expense. By the time a driver gets to where he can win against quality winged competition, he's usually committed to that form financially and sometimes he's even too old to be considered for moving up.I think younger fans who never had a chance to see the legends like Opperman, McSpadden or Wolfgang handle a non-wing car have a whole different midset about their preference. And, today, it's about the speed and technology.

I do see some subtle changes, however, taking place. At the midget race at Knoxville, I saw more teenage and younger fans than I've seen in a long time there. Maybe it's because of the preponderance of young drivers in non wing sprints and midgets. The older fans still come out too, but you don't see many of the 30 somethings in the stands. It also seems to me that because of the cost of attending an event like the World of Outlaws, you don't see many families with kids. Someday, I think that can bite winged racing pretty seriously as the next generation decides its loyalties.

Bottom line for me is that I like non-wing racing and would like to see more of it at Knoxville. I don't think it's really any more dangerous than winged racing. It's a matter of perception and what type of risk a driver or track is willing to work with. I just don't want to see a dry, slow track for wingless cars because of what management perceives as an additional risk. That said, Knoxville is still the winged capitol of the industry and that is what fans have grown accustomed to seeing. Therefore, I wouldn't expect much change in that regard.

As long as they put the DLN's back in the tank they came from, this fan will be happy.

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I also noticed the influx on younger driver, my take is that they aren't looking to spend much time there just enough to get noticed and move up to the next level... It looks to me that alot of the new big name talent isn't coming out of the winged ranks instead from places like USAC etc..

Looking at the history of death and serious injuries at Knoxville from the beginning to now, almost all can be linked to faulty safety equipment or lack of it. Word from Loyet is that he even had trouble with arm restraints last Saturday. I think safety improvements are the biggest factor in injuries slowing down over the years at Knoxville. The track has little to do with that other than pushing the equipment to do its job.

I would love to see the non-wing show spoken of earlier, but there are 24 people on the Fair Board and many were around when the 1982 vote was passed. Perhaps more successful events like we had with the midgets will sway them over time.

www.hoseheads.com/billw.html

My thoughts exactly Bill W, damn we havent agreed much lately And I totally agree with Katich. I wanna say that i consider most of the guys that run at Knoxville my friends or at best aquaintences and by now over the last several years I even get people I dont even know asking me of course wheres the pizza The last thing in the world and trust me when i say THE LAST THING, I would ever wanna see is a driver getting hurt . I remember as a kid and im sure we where all there at one point in childhood we thought crashes where cool we where innocent in our thoughts, but what ends up happening is you see a tramatic event in racing and it changes the way you think and then you realize that the guys gettin hurt are your friends or heroes and you realize the danger, loss or if the driver is safe the all out cost of racing. All the sudden you dont wanna see crashes, though in open wheel racing its not if its when. I mean lets face it motorsports as a whole is like the modern day gladiators people taking risk in front of a crowd that we dont care to try ourselves and the drivers earn that admiration from all of us for taking those risk. Hell i remember taking a few drives at Knoxville in Kevin Frey's 410 and Lynton Jeffries 410 and thought in my head even though I didnt set any hot lap records, damn if I would of started earlier in life it was a sport I might of been able to succeed in, then again i had that wing on that was helping me drive Ralph Blackett said well you did that pretty good lets see you try it without the wing, well didnt care to try that as I realized thats where the talent would of came in , to me it was just a childhood dream to get to drive one hell all the critics on here how many have even got to sit in a sprinter, wave for a push, turn the fuel on and hit the mag switch?. And then those great thoughts came crashing down as I witnessed that horrific event at age 30 at Osky with Keith Hutton, it hit me harder than seeing those events in 1979-82 I was a kid when that happened and you just knew it was bad but didnt realize it at 7 years old what was going on, I remember thinking at Osky just how brutal racing can be I can remember the looks on peoples faces and the eerie calm that took that partyin bunch down to not even a peep for about an hour. I mean damn ol Evel Kneivel look how many people flocked to see him do his jumps on an old Harley Flat tracker with about 0 travel on the suspension. Then his son took over the biz and set alot of new records with his motocross machine with about 2 foot of travel which was an improvement in safety much like the wing cars of old versus the non wing cars today. I just think its that daredevil mentality that gets people hooked on any form of motorsports. I realize times have changed and some of us will never get the chance to witness at Knoxville what our parents did in the 60's and 70's but hell maybe some of us just wish we could see a glimpse of that old magic?