Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Is there a future for the world of outlaws or many of the other traveling groups. With the rising cost of traveling and hard times for the general public, Are the top racers going to be staying closer to home and just picking the big money races if so the local race fans will be the winners if they can still afford to the races after the goverment gets done with them. We have all seen the number of full time road teams have fallen way off in the last few years so this isn't some thing that just started this year or last. How do you fell about it?

All is well with the World Racing Group. Their stock price went up 50% this week! 50%!!!!!

if fuel prices remain high look for ticket prices to go up.

"Truth" would that mean their stock is now at 10 cents...or so?

Thanks, and have a good one!

Calling an illegal immigrant an "undocumented worker" 
is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed 
pharmacist!"

Brian Birkhofer wrote an interesting column in the latest Dirt Late Model about travel. What he says in the column is applicable to all dirt track racers regardless of which division they race in. Interesting read if you have access to a copy.

Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)

Website
www.gotomn.com
Photos
Blog

Well, last I counted there were only about fifteen tracks running a weekly 410 winged sprint car program. Let's see...there's Williams Grove, Lincoln, Port Royal and Lernerville in PA....there's Attica, Fremont, K-C, Skyline and Sharon in OH....there's Knoxville, Huset's and River Cities in the upper midwest and Farmington in MO....Chico and Skagit out west. I miss anybody? Local racing isn't exactly thriving (in most places) due to any number of reasons.

The World of Outlaws still have eighteen traveling teams traversing the country.During Ted Johnson's day, there sometimes weren't more than eight or so. The WoO is still scheduling races, they'll still end up with eighty or so shows even despite all the rainouts. While most local tracks are paying between $2k and $3k to win (and it's not going up, either) the WoO pays $10k to win at nearly all their events. The All Stars pay $5k at nearly all their shows.

In my opinion, the key is the regionalization of 410 winged sprint car racing. Have regional events that can be marketed as more than the run of the mill local show. Promote these drivers as something special. Bring a show to some tracks that don't have sprint car racing every week. Have some common sense rules to contain costs and keep the travel costs down for the average sprint car racer who has a life outside of racing with common sense scheduling and marketing.

Maybe, just maybe, there is too much sprint car racing available to the fans. It's always been a bit higher priced ticket but in some places, it's not special anymore, especially when it's available every week with the same show and drivers. Perhaps less quantity and more quality should be looked into.as a solution.

There will always be a place for the World of Outlaws in some form. A place where the top teams race for the most money. Maybe not ninety times a year...but thirty or forty races. It's important to develope the next generation of sprint car stars and also give a place for the rank and file sprint car driver to race. It's important to also develope the next generation of fans. For most people, going to sprint car races each and every week is becoming expensive and tedious. Perhaps regionalizing the sport can add quality and excitement which will help introduce more people to the sport in new venues.

The promoters would have a hard time raising ticket prices because fans are already strapped for cash. I've heard figures in the $90,000 range for a track to put on a one day WoO show and the current state of the economy would make it risky for them to raise their ticket prices. The promoters I have talked to say their profit margin for a WoO show is getting pretty tight but they don't feel like they're in a position to pass it on to the fans. Fuel will remain high for the forseable future and probably indefinitely so I wouldn't look for a break in that area.

The original World of Outlaws business model of running up and down the highway from February through October is being put to the test by some tough challenges. We have to keep in mind that this concept was conceived back in 1978 when travel expenses were an after thought. All of motorsports is dealing with sponsors cutting back or getting out of it entirely, even the automakers are having to cut back their Cup programs.

I sometimes take a 10 or 15 year old issue of Open Wheel to the "meditation" room and read the columns where the writers made prognostications about the future of the sport. It's almost laughable what some of them said about the future of Sprint Car racing back then. But back in 1993 we savored each word they typed with a psudo authoritative air about them and held it as gospel because they were writers so they had to be right. Same situation with predictions about the future of the traveling series, nobody I know has a working crystal ball. Therefore, there is no right or wrong in this discussion, only opinions. Some more informed than others, some driven by emotion or personal preference but opinions nevertheless. Ten or fifteen years from now we'll see how well they hold up to the test of time.

The WoO still needs local support, fans aren't going to pay increased ticket prices to see 18 cars (probably fewer than that by next season). Some of the local racers in a lot of areas around the country leave their cars home and spectate when the WoO comes to town. Up where I live if a few locals don't race it's a big deal. I'm sure someone from Knoxville, PA or CA will speak up and say they always have full fields but that isn't the case everywhere. Controlling costs has always been a dirty word among most fans and the Outlaw racers but it sure looks like it would be a good idea to get a better handle on that side of it now.

I'm not predicting doom and gloom but as I pointed out there are definately some challenges. In spite of the tight money situation and high travel costs I've seen some great racing so far this season. Considering all the challanges the racers and fans are facing you want to thank each one of them personally for coming out and supporting the racing. WoO teams can do that by staying around to greet the fans because now more than ever before they're the ones keeping this deal afloat.

I'm not insisting that I'm right or know the answers but these underlying challenges have made me that much more thankful for each and every race I attend.

Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)

Website
www.gotomn.com
Photos
Blog

Take away the 410/360 label lets call them all sprint cars. So what if they don't time trial in the low 15.0 bracket at knoxville anymore The track is the raciest when the times are in the mid 17's anyway the night Tatnell turned the 14.4 there wasnt a pass all evening. The real problem killing sprint cars is that aging run down dirt tracks aren't safe enough to hold the races and the promoters don't want to pay the insurance premiums and the purses to support it. It's just easier to race b-mods and 2 man cruisers and sell beer for 4 hours then to actually promote, plan for and run a good show. Then they complain because the town doesn't support the racetrack. People love a winner and support a winner if you give them a winning product that is real entertainment you will get results.

Regionalizing will be tough to do. The midwestalstars have been trying that for 2 years now with not much success. I've attended their shows in MO,IL, and IN, and haven't been too impressed. Low car and fan count seem to be the norm. I was reading their results from TN last night with 12 cars and only 6 or 7 running at the end, that's not a good show for anyone, fans, racers, or promoters. They have had a few shows that were good, depending on location and competition from other series and tracks. Nothing against the midwest guys, the regionalizing just happen to be exactly what was mentioned.

As for too much sprintcar racing avialable to fans? Tell that to the latemodel fans and drivers. I would've thought the oversaturation would've hurt them long ago, but they keep growing. IMO I think a lot of it is due to the fact that the average fan can go virtually anywhere almost anytime and catch a show.

There are many ways to look at things differently. My prospective is just different from yours, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong, it's just the way I see it.

Also look at it another way, with the WoO in town this weekend, attendance is down from the every week regulars. Every week we can see a full field of quality cars race for around $14 per person.

Then the traveling circus comes to town and ticket prices ratchet up to $28 to $32 per person to pay the "sanctioning" fees. What I then see is many facets coming into play. The field usually favors the Pa regulars so we end up with a field of say 12 to 16 locals and 8 to 12 WoO in the show. I'm fine with that whichever way it tilts. The problem is many of the regulars every week are not going to pay the additional $14 to $18 per person to see this show. It is too expensive for them. Priceless if a local wins, but they may not be there. Yes, the WoO does bring in the WoO fan and that is great. Problem is they are not there every week supporting the track.

My feelings are that if the WoO show ticket prices would be in the $20 to $25 per person range and the local regulars all show up AND you promote the invaders being here and bring in the WoO only fans you make a home run by putting tons of people in the stands which pays the bills rather than few people with high ticket prices.

Dirt's for racin' asphalt for gettin' there

I could see regionalization working well for the fan in Central PA. Currently all the teams go to the Grove on Fri, then the field splits for Sat at Lincoln & Port Royal or Selinsgrove. How many fans now go both Fri & Sat night? How many will be able to afford to continue? If the economy doesn't continue to support Sprints at 3 Posse tracks every weekend, I'd rather see Sat night be Sprint night that rotates between the Grove, Lincoln & Port/ Selinsgrove, assuring the fan of a full field every Sat & at his "home" track once every 3 weeks. Variable costs for the teams would be nearly halved & it should help maintain attendance & purses. With work & traffic on Fri, it's a lot less hassel going to the races on Sat. If that's too ambitious, maybe the Sat tracks could agree to alternate Sprint nights, so they don't split the field & the part of the fan base close enought to go to either track. Less racing for the teams, but less expenses. ...just one fans input.

I agree that the only way to even come close to understanding today is to look at it from a distance; history is the best vantage point and the best teacher. But, even having said that, we won't be able to agree that what was done/is being done is correct. We can perhaps reach a concensus, but never be in total agreement.

Okay, I want to throw my two cents in here. Regionalization may work, but it would be a slippery slope with a cesspool at the bottom. If it was done right, fine; but if not...look out.

The problems that I see are many. Every fan wants to see the "top dogs" when they shell out $30-50 for a WoO show, or whatever price for say an All Stars show. If you would guarantee that say the top 10 would be at every show that might appease most of them. Only the top 10 get tow money anyway, correct? So, the Top 10 agrees to attend every show as part of their contract. I think JK suggested once to have 4-6 big shows every year, 1 per region. Since most of the shows will be in confined areas, the other series' drivers could compete also if they had an off night. Good for the car counts.

But even so, you'll have people from every region complaining that "so and so wasn't here, I want my money back". Even now you have fans saying "Jimmy Joe Bob Fred is a much better driver than Al Paypal and he should have that ride". Can't please everyone. But, the casual fan who only goes to 1 or 2 races a year won't know or care. Look at when the NST was running; most people never even HEARD of the NST and were shocked and disappointed when some of the regulars weren't at a WoO show. So, we're back to my "Top 10 at every show" idea.

Most of the tracks wouldn't be losing out on anything as most of them only have one show a year anyway. But it is true that sooner or later more and more tracks are going to be dropping the "big shows" in favor of some of the lesser known series. As StanM said, the up-front costs of a WoO show are escalating each and every year. I think his estimate was low, but that's neither here nor there. Right now fans are already complaining about the cost of a ticket. I don't think that currently a WoO show is even close to a money-maker; it's more of a loss leader. You have them in because the fans want to see them every year, and keeping the fans happy is where it's at.

Eagle has held the price of not only WoO shows consistent for quite awhile, but I can't remember the last time that the ticket price for the weekly show went up. Still $10 per person for the stands and $20 for the pits. How long can they keep this up? I'm not sure, but it has to end soon. Unfortunately, the purses have remained the same also, but I think that's a direct function of the front gate price. The cost to the racers goes up and up, so understandably they want bigger purses. But, if the income isn't there where will it come from?? And then you have unforseen occurences. Rain-outs hurt horribly, and at Eagle we've had more than our share this year. The "Bootleggers Run" last Thursday is a perfect example. Lots of outlay even though not even the pack trucks hit the track. Up-front money, LOTS of promotion, insurance, employees who worked all week and those who showed up Thursday plus wear-and-tear on the equipment prepping the track during the week. Hopefully we can get it rescheduled, but no guarantees on that either.

Every year we have tracks going under, or being sold for redevelopment. No big surprise is it? Costs for them keep going up just like for all of us, but unlike a grocery store they can't just say "Okay, everything costs 25% more now" because unlike food, noone HAS to have racing. And because the groceries cost 25% more, that's just money that isn't available for entertainment.

As for 360's vs 410's, we've been through that argument enough. The costs (except for upkeep) aren't that different anymore. I know of plenty of people who won't even go to a 360 show because it's "So much slower". I doubt that 1 person out of 20 can tell the difference without being told the lap times. It's all perception in my opinion. I see 360 racing weekly (whenever Mama Nature allows anyway), and it's just as good as 410's, sometimes even much better. But, then again, there are people who won't even watch anything but sprints. They abhore "door bangers". I've got news for you folks! At Eagle anyway, they keep the doors open so you CAN watch sprints. And the racers and racing is just as hard-fought and as good as a sprint race.

No, I don't claim to have the answers; just an opinion as StanM also said. Just what I've figured out from watching and reading.

I remember someone telling me not to long ago that there was a new series on the drawing board for next year that would be regional as was suggested. I believe it can work, and I wish them well. I guess we'll see in 20 years or so how it went.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

some things came to mind about your idea. keep in mind this is just my opinion and not not an endorsment or detraction of yours. first, would a track really want to go from having a program every week to having one once a month? even with a lower fan count and possible lower car count per race they still may be comming out better by having the weekly income. the total weekly income from everything they make money on. and believe me, tracks have to be making money. even if not making a killing. i don't know how many of the tracks you are talking about are owned by the promotor or are rented by the promotor. if they are rented i would think the owner would have something to say about the lost income or from having to find something else to bring in to generate income. then what if that something else turned out to be more profitable? also tend to run the risk of losing your fan base by having shows too far apart. another thing is the drivers. they make money racing. i would think they might not like having half of their opportunity to generate income taken away by going from 2 nights a week to one. now with car owners who are paying the bills i am not sure how this would work. some may be only racing one night a week and your idea may not affect them. others may be racing more than once a week and even with the operating costs of running more than one night a week, think it is worth it. if they are paying someone full time to maintain their team, racing more than one night a week might be what it takes to generate whatever purse money they can to help pay a person. also, there may be some fans and/or owners that just won't go to a certain track. maybe they don't like it for whatever reason. maytbe they don't want to travel to it. then you have the normal competition and possible anymosity between competing tracks. the fans and racers choice, or more important, lack of choice should not, in my opinion, be dictated to them. if a track wants to run as many times a week as they can and stay in business, more power to them. if a team can run as much as they want, great. if a fan wants to go to a race every day and can, why stop them? who are we to say where or when or how much racing will be allowed? everyone will find their place in the mix that suits them. there will be as much racing as the circumstances of any area or region can continue to support. it may go up and down, but it will control itself. racing has gotten over controlled as it is as far as i am conserned. this wing, that tire, these heads... it is lack of choice that has driven up some costs. the so called cheep RR tire rule is a joke. the spec SC hoosier tires are climbing up to pre spec tire prices. true you only need one compound if your track has a one compound rule, decreasing the need to have multiple compounds mounted. that has not helped the woo guys as they have 3 compounds to choose from and a lot of them lost tire deals because of the spec rule. i hear folks complaining that they can see good weekly races for less than woo shows and are happy. well i can sing pretty good and so can some of your local bands that you see play every week in bars or clubs, but you still will pay top dollar to go see the top traveling acts when they come to your area. a sprint car show is a sprint car show, can be said by some, and your local racers have gotten better and more competitive over the years. part of that is due to what has been passed down in the industry through input and devolopment from the traveling racers who race more in a month at times than most locals race in a year. still the traveling guys tend to be better than most of the local racers, and it is too bad it is being proven by the local racers who choose to stay home and not feel they can compete. we go to the traveling shows to see the names racing and to hopefully be entertained by their talent. the thing is, so many local shows have patterned their show after the woo that it still can seem like the same ol' thing. i agree the woo guys need to be more fan friendly as a whole. they also need to find ways to try to be more unique again. they need to make us feel we are seeing more than we usually get. those guys as a group are the best out there, PA can argue that all they want, but track for track, as a group, they are the best. i guess things can be made complicated, but why?

The regionalization concept was surfaced as one possible strategy for dealing with the potential of reduced attendance & fewer teams choosing to travel due to increased fuel prices & an economic slowdown. It's not something that would be imposed, rather something that could naturally evolve as a way to keep racing going if times really get tough. It's supply & demand, law of the jungle & the economic food chain. It's not set in stone that 3+ tracks in the same region all have to run Sprint shows every weekend. It's great when they can, but it's not an all or nothing deal - the market can adapt & adjust. In business & racing - nothing's guaranteed & nothing lasts forever.

Eagle, you're way off on at least one point and let me help you. For many years the World of Outlaw show at tracks that had them once a year WAS the money-maker that paid for the rest of the season, period end of story.

If you think that has changed at some you are sadly mistaken. In a couple of days they will be up here in Canada and lining the pockets of a well-deserved, excellent promoter. Last year for his one day show there was somewhere between 8 and 9,000 there at $40 a head plus concessions that were busy most of the night. The fans loved it, the racers loved it and this year there will be two nights of racing, hardly a loss leader! Gas is more than a buck more on average than you currently pay and I will be curious to see if there is any effect as a result, the weather forecast looks great so there will be no excuses there.

Prepare your track, run the show promptly and never forget the racefan and if you've done your homework promotion wise you should succeed. Good luck to all those that do, Take It Easy.....

Racing is like any business if you think about it. It has "cycles". Don't know what that is? One thing though I would bet money on,is that if all the current Outlaw teams would downsize in every department,( As of this year Gary Wright is using a pickup truck with an enclosed trailer with plywood floor). He seems to make to any race track anywhereYou'd still see just as good racing and less complaining in all departments. Look back at the first few years when WOO was taking off. Team Kinser consisted of Karl,Steve and Paul Elrod. Same with Sammy. There was a crew of Sammy and,,maybe one "Volunteer" crew helper,if any. Bobby Allen. Well there was Bobby and Bobby and Bobby to get to race tracks. Doug Wolfgang and Bob Trostle and on and on. Bobby Marshall, which most current board readers, prolly never even heard of run WOO the first year was usually by himself. Where there's a will there's a way!They all made it criss crossing the country without 50 people having to show up at the race track to make it happen.Nowadays when the hauler pulls up to the pit shack, all the kids as pit crew help are running into each other getting out of the hauler. Someone( car owner) is footing the bill for these kids to at least eat/motels). I don't think the state of racing has anything to do with any of the track owners,at all. Most racing owners,have brought it on,in the form of too many cooks spoil the soup.As mentioned earlier in this post, the "race model" may be: Danny Smith " Does it his way" ,pretty much by himself,and still racing, makes to any track he decides to go to,and does he complain?. If their were more racers with the backbone of DS that showed up anywere I would guess the "Joe race fan" would enjoy racing more these days. Just my 2 centz.

Take Care

Danny Smith, almost an original Outlaw, may in fact be the last one left. Nothing but good memories and times spent with that man, one of the best people in the sport. His line in Victory Lane after beating the Outlaws at Lawrenceburg a few years back will never leave me.

"What's the big deal, I was a track champ at this place.......25 years ago and without a wing, lol.......Take It Easy....

Well, you are minimally correct in that this happens, but it's the excption rather than the rule. Money maker for most of the tracks? Maybe a little, but a year-maker? Not anymore for the greatest preponderance of the facilities.

Yes, the WoO USED to be the one thing that helped a facility turn a profit for the year. It might still be for a track here and there. But when even Knoxville can't get more than 1000 in the stands for them, it just doesn't hold true now.

It's not 1985, it's 2008 and the truth of the matter is, the WoO doesn't guarantee a windfall nowadays.

I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.

Concur.

Stan Meissner (Check out the photo gallery and blog)

Website
www.gotomn.com
Photos
Blog

just a couple of points that i think might matter. how many woo shows does that track get in a year and how long has it been hosting them? how many woo shows are run in the surrounding area like say compared to folks traveling from in, to oh, or pa, to oh? out here in cali we get fewer woo shows per year it seems. they are generally packed, even at close to 50 bucks for both grandstand and pit tickets. there seem to be a lot of woo shows in the midweast and farther east. there are a few tracks with as many or more woo shows per year than a track out here has in three years. k-ville will see the woo more or as least as much as the whole california schedule. also all the bagging that goes on on this site and others towards the woo can't help. if folks are bagging on here, they are bagging to anyone they talk to. not a good word of mouth advertizing program. i am of the belief that most of the bagging comes from jealousy, and spite. my point though is that some markets may be at the flood point and others are not. i am sure that the woo would love to run more out here and have a chance to stay in the area for 4-5 weeks like they used to but we have tracks that have closed and other issues. cali is not as much of a racing state as it once was. with out being too politically incorrect, immigrants are just not too interested in sprint racing!! also some tracks that could hold woo shows just may feel that with the before mentioned woo sanction fees their seating capacity is not enogh to make money. some like antioch and petaluma seem to just not care about sprints anymore. we are glad that ocean speedway in watsonville has brought back sprint racing and for the first time in years will have a woo show.