Forum: Minnesota Dirt Track Racing Forum (go)
Moderators: StanM

Why don't all of the sprint racers from around here get together and run the crate type engines that are available? $3,000 lease for a year, easy maintenance, great racing/closer competition, no chance for CHEATING(with engines at least)!! Seems like a winning proposition.

They can be cheated, don't let the press fool you.

Yeah, I agree. However, if you show up at each race and get a new computer for the engine, how much can you actually do to them? Regardless, cheating is happening right now anyway. Why not make everything more affordable for the racers. Let's face it, car counts aren't exactly booming. Maybe it would get a few more involved, or re-involved. Racing is all about the competitors who love the sport and the fans who love watching and supporting it. The manufacturers and builders are just along for the ride.

If you want match racing, NASCAR is on TV every weekend. My opinion, and I think on a "Message Board" I am entitled to one, Match racing SUCKS... What do you think Jake?

I agree with ya Kenny. Part of the strategy of racing is getting your engined tuned, and seperates a few from the crowd....can't do that with a computer. Not to mention, the sealed engine thing always looks good from the get go, but get a year or two into the situation, and only one engine builder is doing them, and then the price all of the sudden rises, and there's nothing the racer can do about it!

O.K. that makes a lot of sense, with the cost of a new ASCS 360 costing around $30K now days and crowning someone "track champion", who I can't guarantee but I'm 99% sure, who's probably been running illegal heads for a couple of years now. I thinks it's time for everyone to put their engine tuning pride aside and look at getting car counts up and having close racing. Maybe work on set-ups and driving instead of engines? Oh yeah, the cost of fuel nowdays doesn't help either.

You buy the first one, I'm sure everyone will jump right in and join you.

Let me guess apprentice. You work for a cretain machine shop in Minnesota??

No, I've actually been involved in sprint car racing for 18 years. I know that a lot of others have been in it longer than I have, but I am really looking at how sprint car racing can not only survive but get better. Jon McCorkell should really consider this I think. I know some 317 guys that would jump at the chance and that would consolidate the two classes. Heck, it would probably be cheaper than running a 317 even. Let's think outside the box guys. I know it's hard for some people to do that.

Ok, I'm hoping the things I'm about to say aren't offensive to anyone, but facts are facts and you've got to be real about it.  First of all, I know you've said you're in the racing game, so some of these thoughts you'll already know....I'm not talking down....just getting them out for the sake of saying it!!LOL  Let's just say we put the 317 or double barrels (whichever you prefer) together.  Who do you think will run in the top 10, and who do you think will run in the 11-20 spots?  The guys racing 360s (for the most part, but not EVERY car), have far superior equipment to the 317s.  They have lighter and straighter parts.  They have more lighter and straighter parts at their disposal.  I don't think we're looking to get a guy with hobby stock money into a sprint car...which is what a few of those 317 guys are.  Geez, there's parts on the track in that class that most guys racing for some time haven't seen in years!  Now don't get on me saying I don't like 317s.....there are good drivers and some decent equipment in that class as well.  Don't get me wrong by any means.....if you've got the talent and the money to race a sprint car....go for it!  There needs to be some sort of seperation in there though.  I believe where they are at is just fine.  ASCS has pretty much taken over the country as far as 360 sanctioning and rules go.  It's not cheap by any means, but sprint car racing has never been.  Sure you could go back 20-30 years and say it was, but a stock car was cheaper then too....hell 30 years ago they knocked the glass out of a street car and that was about it!!.  Sprint cars have always been the premier form of dirt track racing, and with that comes a bigger price tag than other dirt track cars.

Do I wish car counts were bigger?  Of course I do.  I want to see the class survive as badly as anyone else does.  Will cheapening up the deal help?  Sure it would.  However I think the biggest thing to making "Jackson" car counts thrive is more in the track itself than in the price tag.  Guys are getting good and going to Knoxville.  Guys are staying closer to home in the Sioux Falls area.  You used to have a handful of guys weekly that would travel from the Sioux Falls area to race there almost every week.  Purse increases in the starting money and the 2-15 positions would help immensly (I'm not saying this is a Jackson problem, it's an everywhere problem).  The track itself needs alot of work.  Get that thing smoother, and get the damn rocks out of it!!  I live 30 miles from Jackson and only raced there 4 times this year due to the fact that I'm not going to have my car look like it's gone to war in 1 night (which is what happened).  I personally don't have any problems with Jon.  I think Jon could make a go of this thing if he keeps on the track he's going, and finds a little more funding to add into the purse.  Lets get the media more involved.....radio, newspapapers, and television.  NASCAR (I didn't think I'd curse on a dirt track board!) isn't as big as it is because they're dumb!  There are companies lined up to sponsor cars because they'll be able to see their name on television, or get mentioned in the paper and radio.  Let's make it worth a sponsors money to have their name on a local race car.  Finding sponsors on a local level is like getting checked for prostate cancer!!  I just cringe every time I approach someone, and I'd like to think I'm pretty well prepared, and have a good program to offer them.

Sorry I can't think outside the box this morning.....I just don't have it in me!!

I agree with you on a lot of points you made about Jackson. Let's please give Jon and the crew some credit for the shape of the track this year though. Compared to years past, it was A LOT better. I think anyone who raced there would agree. I know there are some people who can afford to ship there engine out east to get worked on, but not everyone can afford to do that. To take the attitude "racing sprint cars has never been cheap" is completely ignorant in todays world. Some of these guys that race "ASCS sprints" would be better served if they would just strap on a set and get into 410s. Hell, the expense isn't that far off and the pay-out is better. Perhaps a case of "big fish-small pond"? Cheaper-less maintenance-same pay-out-better show for the fans-closer competition- I don't see a lot of draw-backs personally. 5 years ago I would have told you to "go pound it", but things are way out of hand.

I see your point apprentice. In a sense you're correct about a 410, the expense isn't that much more initially, but throughout the year it's quite a bit more these days. Freshening every 10 shows instead of 20-25.....and to freshen one correctly it's in the neighborhood of $7500 each time. Tires get worn out quicker....so on and so forth. I also say let's see what Jon can do for next year. Hopefully things will continue to improve. Has 360 racing gotten out of hand???? Yes it has...don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that. I still say it's never been cheap to do. I wish we could find a better way as well, but I'm just not any believer in a computer engine.

I would like to see what drivers and owners that compete at Jackson think about this type of configuration.

Consider how much a freshening costs over the winter.

If it were to blow-up you just get a different one.

If you don't have all of that money tied up in an engine you can use it for operating capital(tires, chassis, bars, shocks, "tip-over" fund, etc...)

All you could do is pose it to Jon or the committee and see what they say!  My guess is the 360 guys would for the most part see things more the way I see them than the sealed engine.....but it's just that, a guess.  Freshening a 360 is about $3500 including dyno time.....not all that bad considering.

Agreed prices are crazy,  they have always been crazy,  but where else besides Jackson is this crate engine going to be used?  By utilizing this crate engine you are going to be limited to one track to race.  I think a better move would be to tech the motors we have to eliminate the cheating.  Knoxville and ASCS sanctioned events seem to be able to tech these engines.  Maybe it's time the local tracks get busy and start doing the same.  As big as ASCS has gotten nationwide it looks like you are pissing up a rope trying to get something new like this to work. 

Very good point Ken. It's only costworthy if it's useable all the time.

The 317 class was designed to be a cheap way for people to get into sprint car racing. Jackson has a pretty good set of rules for 360 sprints they just need to enforce them.

ANYBODY CAN CHECK MY MOTOR ANY TIME THEY WANT I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE!!!! CALL MY CELL YOU CAN LOOK AT ANYTHING YOU WANT 712 330 3631 BILL BOLES

Relax Billy, I don't think you were the champion in reference. Congrats by the way. One of the fun things about getting to be an old fart is seeing guys like you work hard, learn and become one of the best racers in the area. Its takes a lot of hard work to win a championship just once, to repeat is truly the mark of a mature, solid team. Congrats!

The above discussion is good reading. Solid points, good debate, Stan has probably fainted that he hasn't had to babysit the post.

A couple of points came to mind while reading:

* I think Jake hit the mark very well in his points about media exposure and sponsorship. Almost every class of racing I know of requires sponsorship money to make up the difference between the cost of fielding a competitive team and the purse/points money available to win. This is not limited to racing, but is prevalent in all professional sports. The simple fact is that sponsors want exposure to potential customers; sponsorship is an investment with a desired return. Without that exposure there is little incentive to invest money as there is unlikely to be any return to their business.

In racing, class rules can always be debated, I don't believe there is a perfect set of rules anywhere. If we look back at the past sprint racing ventures in this area, very few have lasted, but some have succeeded over a longer haul (Knoxville, Huset's, WoO, IRA, etc...). We should ask ourselves: "What was common to all of those ventures that failed or fizzled?" Also: "What is common to those that have lasted?" In my opinion, the class rules haven't been the cause of failure or the reason for success. For example, Knoxville, Huset's, and Jackson ran the same sprint rules for one and sometime two classes. One has had consistently high car counts, one has had steady, although modest, car counts and one has seen wild extremes from 40 cars down to 6. Same rules, different outcomes; why?

* Spec or crate engines are a reasonable base to build a class around. Even if they aren't the answer to this area's problems (see above), they could play a role in developing a niche sprint class. The major factor address by a crate engine is to reduce the overall cost of competitive engines thus reducing the cost of the class. Reducing the class cost also reduces sponsorship pressure. By that I mean less money is needed to bridge the gap of cost to winnings. Of course, prize money usually follows class cost; meaning lower cost cars are likely to not be offered premium purse levels (i.e. 317 purse versus 360 purse, IMCA purse versus ASCS purse, IRA purse versus WoO purse).

While not being the main problem to solve (IMO), a lower cost sprint may help this region. Having travelled around this country (not for racing unfortunately), my observation is that this area does not have a large money pool to tap for racing (either for owners or sponsors). Where money does exist (Twin Cities), racing is very low on the allocation scale as compared to boating, fishing, resorts, travel, horses, and other pursuits. Compare our base to the Indianapolis area with its strong racing support or Pennsylvania that has Pittsburgh and Philadelphia plus a number of intermediate cites. There are at least two ways to address this: (1) lower the cost of the class or (2) increase the interest in class thus getting money of the available pool (market share). I personally think the latter will be more effective which is why I think Jake was on target with regarding to media exposure.

Last, cheating has always been a part of any competitive sport. Cheating can't be eliminated unless there are no rules. Remember the original Outlaws and WoO in the first two decades or remember the Unlimited Sprints division? No cheating because everything was legal. However, the cost of racing went up and it rose fast. If there are rules, cheating can only be contained. Containing it requires constant policing and consistent ramifications. To make inspections viable (time and energy) and the results less controversial, the rules need to be such that inspection is easy and compliance is clear cut. By way of example, a weight rules can be easy and clear cut. However, if cars are rarely weighed or randomly weighed someone will "role the dice" on the chance they won;t get caught. Or, if inspectors start making subjective allowances for mud, fuel, water loss, or other thing that happen, the rule becomes meaningless as the team that can argue or plead the best can "get off". Bottom line, it doesn't matter if the rule is a spec head, sealed engine, injector stack size, or cubic inch limit if its not checked it doesn't matter. If it is checked, but the consequences vary there will be controversy.

Enough spouting from me in the cheap seats...
Jimmy Kouba

Well said Jimmy.