Forum: SCRAFAN.COM Forum (go)
Moderators: ljennings

Why would Perris Auto Speedway host a 360 race and NOT use rules that would suit the 150 or so 360 cars in a 300 mile radious? There is not a 360 non wing orginisation within 500 miles that allows cockpit adjustable shocks and suspension components yet they are legal for this race.

There is not a 360 non wing dirt sprint car series in the country that I know of that allows anything but 23 degree heads but for this race it is wide open?

there is not a 360 non wing dirt orginizationin anywhere in the country that I know of that allows Alum blocks yet they are legal for this race.

There are no dirt 360 groups that allows down nozzles yet they are acceptable for this race.

Perhaps I am just a narrow minded cranky old man but I fail to see how this can be good for our sport. can someone please explain to me how a promoter can think that this will work.

Thank you all in advance for your help

Kevin

It is the new and improved next generation 360, the Stealth.

I agree with you Kevin. This race is going to be lame unless it has the support of VRA, SCRA, Bandits etc.

"Elbows Up, Hammer Down!"

Is this a 1 race" Championship" series ? Will 410's be allowed to compete ? Will it pay $ 4000 to win if 90 cars show ? Will the race be cancelled if only 12 cars show,sorry no refund ?Is this the USAC/360 Div. that they have been wanting for so many years?Do you only need to possess an ASCS gasket, or must it be installed in an engine it was designed for?Who will sanction this race?Are there actual rules for this race? Too many loop-holes.

according to the rules I can bring a winged car with a 410 as long as I run an ascs gasket and use an RC3

I think What I will do is skip the Friday thing,... show up Sat, since there will only be 12 or so cars, Start 13th,... collect me check and go home. That will cut my expences by half.

I mean no disrespect to anyone who has posted here regarding this subject. By no means whatsoever am I an apologist for the PAS as I lay direct & equal responsibility between them and the Ventura promoter for destroying the local member driven 410 group. I do understand and agree with your position as being valid. To me, it looks like you guys are paying to race this race. Having said all that, I'm not so sure this is the proper forum and way to air these grievances. After all what's to prevent the track from having an internal meeting and saying "You know what? It's been a couple years since we hosted them and I completely forgot how much of a pain in the ass these 360 guys are. This is a one time event and we don't need the headache, let's just dump this show" You have just removed by one the number of racetracks that will host your races.

The 360's have built a good solid foundation for themselves at Ventura but they have no foothold whatsoever in Perris. If this is an attempt by the track to throw something at the wall and see if it sticks, I don't see how it can be productive to encite a public riot of driver/owners. Openly encouraging them to boycott the first night isn't helping matters. They might be receptive to a direction conversation regarding these valid issues but if it were me, I might be tempted to say "the hell with it".

Again, I agree with what you are saying but the delivery isn't likely to help in this case.

This is not an attempt to see if this works. If the format, pay and rules were done correctly, this would be a great show. This race is an attempt to use the 360 cars to offset the cost of the USAC purse and a way for The PAS to make more money. I do not have a problem with them making money, but not at the expense of the racer.

RichCee

Sure looks like you took a swing at Jim Naylor in your post. "I'm not so sure this is the proper forum and way to air these grievances" sound familiar? Sure appears we're talking about a race with the rules full of swiss cheese. The valid questions presented need to be clarified before teams will commit. Pointing a finger in the opposite direction is counter productive. Gotta go to the shop and see if a RC3 will fit on my tractor.

RichCee,

I had conversations with Mr. Kazarian via e-mail about this very subject proir to the current entry form and all two rules being posted, and offered the following suggestion.

1) Steel blocks only, (360 C.I. max.)

2) 23 degree heads only, NO down nozzles, one nozzle per cylender. (ASCS gasket required)

3) No cockpit adjustable shocks or suspension components.

4) No rotating Titanium. 1500 LBS. weight rule (with driver) at the completion of the event.

This set of rules would have fit EVERY 360 group within 500 miles. (yes the Az. guys would have to add the gasket as they do now anyway)

Apperantley it all seemed to much to police and my suggestion was sh*# canned.

As the rules (all two of them) stand right now you will have three or four guys with 100 or so more horsepower and a thousnd dollars or so worth of cocpit adjustable gadgets then the rest,... they will make the others look silly and the fans will complain that the 360's put on a pour show as only a couple guys where fast. Again, this could have been a great asset to our sport but the way it is right now I think it will be a great slap in the face to our sport.

ps According to the rules (or lack therof) I can run a wing car.

Sure looks like you took a swing at Jim Naylor in your post.

I suppose I am. Anybody here that doesn't feel like Messers Naylor & Kazarian played a direct role is destroying SCRA, raise their hand. Those of you with hands in the air, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the situation.

"I'm not so sure this is the proper forum and way to air these grievances" sound familiar?

The possibility exists that as I've gotten older, I've gotten wiser. What happened before is water under the bridge. I'm not bitter about it, just wiser.

This race is an attempt to use the 360 cars to offset the cost of the USAC purse and a way for The PAS to make more money.

Judging solely by the number of spectators in the stands at the last Perris 360 Nationals show, I find the notion that this 1 360 show is going to offset the costs of an entire season of 410 races is a bit nebulous. At best, it might offset the costs of the last 360 show.

I don't disagree that the rules/format/entry rules of this race are poorly crafted. If it were me, I'd show up with a wing. I'm disagreeing with the way you are going about it. Has anyone asked someone with PAS influence to go to the Kazarians about this? Possible candidates would be Naylor, SoCal Steve Howard, Kruseman?

This is the absolutely perfect thread to describe the main problem with Sprint Car Racing today "Fragmentation"
Until the sprint car fraternity is in complete agreement on a set of common rules, and real cost control this sport is going nowhere.
In My Opinion;
After having communicated with several "Professionals" in, out and around the sport I propose that an open engine rule will cure most of the problems Sprint Car Racing faces today.
The basic premise is that an open engine rule will reduce the cost of engines 30-50%
Prove Me Wrong.
1. Any Engine Displacement or Configuration
2. Any Fuel (Including Nitromethane and or Nitrous Oxide)
3. Any Aspiration
Thanks,
Don

I know of one way to make the cost of the engines go down but it would never happen nor do I know if it would be the proper way to do things so I will leave it to the powers that be to control their own destinies!

Joe

Hey Guys,

This doesn't sound like necessarilly a good deal for what is the standard for 360 non-winged rules. It is as Kevin mentioned. Essentially the Grand Slam type rules are the most inclusive as far as numbers of central and southern California SC's are concerned. Az. cars are probably not that far different, if thats what they are looking for.

FYI, the Bandit Series raced at Perris in the late 90's and the VRA ran the 360 Nationals earlier this century. It seems like a fine 360 track, although more motor does show up.

I hope it turns out to be OK and it would be nice to see some coming together to bring 360's there, especially on occassion as a affordable SC division or as a 410 feeder division. It could be very successful and would be good for the Sprint Car division at large, but better with rules that make it inclusive rather than another splintered sprinter deal.

More tracks and groups racing Sprint Cars is necessary for the growth of the sport. As 360's go, working together to keep working to keep cars close to each others specification is wise and makes policing easier and racing less expensive for the competitors.

other than the Nitro fuel this is without a doubt the most sensable post I've read on this board in years.In my humble opinion there should be 2 types of sprint cars. winged and none winged

ROB

And the wing dingers can stay in Pennsylvania!

I think Richard Harvey with the 360 SCRA series has it right (at least the closest to) since he does not require ASCS gaskets when you run the ASCS heads. At some point the ASCS heads will become the norm in Ca. as they are everywhere else in the country. Right now no one buys them because they make no power when run with the gaskets (if you doubt this call Brodix and they will tell you ASCS heads were never intended to be mated with the ASCS gaskets. The gaskets were created to be an equalizer for tracks in transition). If cars with open heads use the gaskets and the and those with ASCS heads do not, you will have a natural gravitation to the heads as engines are replaced. This is better than the eventual overnite ASCS mandate seen in so many other regions.

Kevin, you are absolutely right about such things as cockpit adjustibles.........there is absolutely no need to add this kind of cost to SC racing. Tire unification (and not the ridiculous VRA tire) is another debate that will wait for the next rant.

Right-On-Rob Kind of like these?

"But, believe it or not in 1980 we had a thousand horsepower from a 560 inch big block"
"You couldn't hook it up at all, their was definitely no tire that would even work and then there was no wing rule, so we ended up putting up these really wild looking wings on there, kind 'a got it to half ass work pretty good "
"The horsepower completely overcame everything we could do but, when the Outlaws came up there the Big Blocks would definitely give them you know what, they couldn't keep up, that's why the rule change." (410 Limit)
-Ron Shaver

Exactly. As I've argued before (unsuccesfully) mating the gasket WITH ASCS heads puts me at a disadvantage. Therefore, I won't run with VRA or anyone else with those unfair rules. IF I was required to run the gasket, I would build a specific motor with a killer set of really expensive heads in order to gain an advantage.

While the rules for this show are obviously all over the road, the reality is that there are roughly 1400 360 sprint cars in the U.S. that comply with ASCS rules. There are about 60 that comply with VRA rules. There are none that comply with the Perris rules!

I'll keep dreaming of the day when the Arizona club can run in California and vice a versa. (not holding my breath...)

Bruce St. James

7K

Bruce

Your numbers are off buddy. There are 118 cars listed for VRA alone, 50 or so Bandit sprints and many others. The figure is far more than your 60 and most likely well over 200. The gasket is meant to even out the playing field so guys with the big buck "killer" heads don't have the advantage you speak of. You know......the driver and crew wins.... not the biggest bank account.

OR else it might be: "Bank of America puts a slide job on Wells Fargo coming off turn 2, Washington Mutual punts Midstate into the wall for third, we go red" Sort of like it will be a PAS.

People. You need to read the post that Lance put up on the 5th of Dec.It say ASCS RULES WITH 2 ADDITIONS, ASCS GASKET AND A RC3 RR TIRE. Go online and read ASCS rules. If this is what the PAS is going to use as a guideline for rules, then everyone needs to read them carefully and abide by them. There very simple and clear cut as to what you can run motor wise. Now keep in mind these rules were for winged sprint cars. The non wing rules are different as they do allow for cockpit adjusters. If the 360 eng rule is used, it's very simple.PLEASE READ ASCS RULES AS THEY APPLY TO 360 ASCS ENGINE. As far as cockpit adjusters go thats a whole other can of worms. ASCS wing series donot allow them.The ASCS TNT Tour does allow cockpit adjusters as this falls more inline with USAC non wing series. The PAS needs to clarify the rule for this race.