Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Some the discussion in Larsonfans thread about The Grove & costs got me thinking about something. I notice throughout the year we all talk about how much it costs teams to race & how some areas have car count problem because of it.

I notice in many of these discussions people talk about payouts, point funds, frequency of races, track size, money teams. I hardly ever see anything about the amount of money manufacturers/builders charge as possibly being a problem. Yes I know that in a capitalism society people are able to charge what they want & I am all for anyone making money. However, if demand starts going down because teams can't afford equipment, wouldn't that hurt the manufactures also? 

Now full disclosure, I am not a gearhead like some of you are so that is why I ask the question. I am not sure exactly how much money chassis, tire, engine builders etc actually make. I don't know if they are in the same boat as tracks & teams where they can close at any second? I don't doubt that all charge a fair price, but would there be room on this end for savings? We have heard for years engine prices keep going up, purse stays the same, # of teams going down. If the # of teams keeps going down because of price, shouldn't the price go down? But not being a gearhead, I am not sure how much raw materials cost which is why I ask

My quick thought to your one example would be, if you are building fewer engines because of a lower demand, wouldnt your price go up to maintain the same profit margin?

No.  Lower demand means cut throat pricing in all industries----racing included.  You can charge what you want.  But, someone has to pay it.  Would you pay a higher price if everyone is fighting for your business?  If people pay $65,000 for a motor, that's because there is demand for the motor.  No other reason.  

JMO

That's what I was taught in Econ in college. But reading statements from people & hearing interviews from individuals in the industry, they make it sound like it's doom & gloom. But as you said, if people are charging $65k for an engine, it's because there is demand for it. Owners pay it maybe because they feel they need it to compete or just because they have no other choice. I'm just wondering, not being a gearhead and all, if they do have a choice.

Are there ways to save money & not buy an expensive motor, without effecting performance? 

     I think the competitive nature of the business skews the economics a bit. Sure, you could probably buy a cheaper engine, if saving money was your goal. Or, you could buy the best engine avaiable, if winning was your goal.

      You could also probably find a bargain basement pitcher or quarterback, or pay $90 million or whatever.

All that power don't mean squat  if you don't have the talent to know how to use it. Go ask Johnny  Herrara, Mr spin the tires off the car.  

The teams are the ones spending the money.  I talked to a team that runs a new tire every night.  This team also struggles to make the show.  Instead of working on getting faster they just throw money at it.  You don't need everything the top teams have to be competitive.  But it's always been monkey see, monkey do.

Thank you. That's what I was getting at, but I worded it poorly. Thats what happens when you spend approximately seven hours at the track and consume plenty of good hooch.

Alas.

At least my punctuation was spot on.... I think.

Must have been a really well run show last night!  LOL! 

Let's go Sprint Car Racing!

Knoxville - Best Track In the USA!
Eldora - 2nd Best Track in the USA!

Great question, great topic.

Costs can be contained, if that's what you want to do. Arguments can be made taking cost out of racing would attact more cars, therfore a better show.

That could be done very easily via rules.  But, do fans want to see new track records and sheer speed, or would they be good with slowing them down with more cars, and perhaps better racing?

To be honest, this gas stop stuff doesn't cut it I my mind, but it is what it is.  Can't run 50 (40 at some places) on a 33 gallon tank.  Stopping for gas ruins the whole thing.

How about this (TM); $100,000 to win at the Big E. 100 laps. Run what ya brung.  No fuel stops or changes under red or yellow.

That would be a hoot.

I would agree that the nature & competitiveness of the industry skews the economics a bit. Not sure why though because as it has been shown in sprintcar racing, and other sports, $$$ spent does not equate to success. As others have pointed out, many have spent a ton of coin on motors & chassis' but have not even made features on a regular basis. Even though there are drivers who probably race on worn tires & a tuned down engine, finish mid pack & make a few bucks. 

I guess part of this is I'm not sure why there is the constant push for tracks/promoters/sanctioning bodies to increase the purse & contingency rewards to make up with the rising costs, when the teams are half responsible for the rising costs.

      I dunno. Tell me the last WoO champion that was a budget racer.

I think its more complicated than that. Specialty items like race car parts have a small market, meaning manufacturers have to charge more than  firms that sell thousands of their products, to keep their business afloat. So its a small, but expensive market. Some teams can afford expensive stuff, olhers feel forced to get equivalent equipment to compete,  some just give up, can't afford it.... downward spiral

Speed cost money, how fast you wanna go?

Costs aren't as inflated as you think.  Lets say for a moment that a 410 motor is $60k.  Lets break this down.

Engine block $4900:  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bro-8b1000

Now the block still has to be machined and clearanced and note that this block does not come with cam bearings installed.  Most if not all the modern 410 motors have roller cam bearings which are about $90 but you have to do alot of machining and redoing of the oiling system of the block to make them work.  

Heads BARE $2900:  A decent set of heads are gonna run you alot and I'm sure the good builders touch them up in areas to make even more power.  These are bare heads and still need springs, retainers, valves, etc.  There is easily another $1500-$2000 that has to be put into these heads to make them even ready to run.  https://www.jegs.com/i/Brodix/158/1318002/10002/-1

Connecting rods $3056:  Carrillo rods are the absolute best in the business and many engine builders use nothing but.  This price is before any additional machining or bolts even.   https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cnn-9566

Crankshaft $2000:  Core of the motor.  Before any additional machining or balancing.  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cpi-saj11a-mg/overview/make/chevrolet

So right there with just some quick google work I've come up with about $13,000 just in very basic parts without any machining yet and missing a slew of additional parts like the Mag, oil pumps, covers, intake manifolds, fuel pumps, and etc.  While I don't think the motor builders are in the poor house they aren't as lucritive as you might think.  There is also alot of test and development going on that I'm sure they have to eat the cost on alot.

The problem is though, that even those teams that may not have the best of the best of everything, what they do have is still almost as expensive to maintain. Your tires are still $220, a change of oil is still $80, a 5 gallon jug of methanol is still $20. When I was racing in 2015, I did not have the best of everything, but I had decent stuff. I figured it cost me $1000 per race night just to show up and race a 360 event, and that is without wrecking everything. With the power the engines make, how locked down we now set our cars up, and the track prep of today, you were going to go through at least 2 rear tires per night. Engine needs a freshen at every roughly 20 shows, at a bare minimum of $3k up to about $7-$8K depending on what cycle it is on. That is roughly $150 to $400 per night, you were going to dump about 25 gallons of fuel into the car including the 10 or so you had in the car to start with, which is about $140, fuel in the truck to get to the races, figure about $60 (was a good average for me and how far I had to drive to race, will change from team to team). Oil change every 3 races at about $80 = about $25 per night. new valve springs every 8-10 shows at $500 a set is $50 a night.  Using just those numbers that I have there and going off of $200 per night wear and tear on engine between freshen, that leaves us with $975, not including incidentals. 

Now, figure in racing for a normal 360 purse in our area of about $1000 - $1500 to win and $200 or so to start.

410 stuff is more expensive as the engines are more expensive to freshen and need it in half the time. figure a $7K to $10K freshen every 10-12 shows, it will raise that figure.

Keep in mind these are not costs to buy a car, buy a motor or any of that, these are simply the costs to show up to the race track, race, not crash, and go home at the end of the night.

A fine gesture to show your appreciation to your favorite driver is to swing by his pit and slide him some cash "towards a tire".  If just a fraction of his fans do this from time to time, the high cost of racing can be slightly offset.  I know not everyone can afford to contribute, but a lot of us can without really missing the money.  I personally know a HOF retired WOO driver that kinda gets emotional when he tells about all the fans throughout his career that bought him a tire or gave him cash.  Even $10 helps.  

does anybody know how much it would cost to sponsor a 410 team in central pa?  do you pay as a primary sponsor that gets you more prominent areas or do they sell it by the section?  i'm part of an organization that could use the attention and i want to get a ballpark of what it might cost. 

What if a guy could buy an 18 year old car, build a motor in his garage, run free used tires, use $50 shocks, put the entire thing on the track for 8K, have a blast and actually win races against full fields? That happens where I live. 

In 360 or 410 winged sprint car competition?