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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: filtalr  /  hosehead

Topic: 2018 410 wing and non-wing schedules
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BillV99
December 26, 2017 at 09:26:34 AM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
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This message was edited on December 26, 2017 at 09:41:51 AM by BillV99

I've started to compile complete 410 schedules for winged and non-winged races on my Ratings page, and will continue to update them as more schedules get released.

410 Ratings

2018 Winged schedule

2018 Non-Wing schedule



Langhorne
MyWebsite
December 26, 2017 at 11:25:41 AM
Joined: 11/24/2004
Posts: 50
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This message was edited on December 26, 2017 at 11:26:06 AM by Langhorne

You seem to have omitted the Williams Grove non sanctioned weekly events?



BillV99
December 26, 2017 at 11:29:14 AM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Langhorne on December 26 2017 at 11:25:41 AM

You seem to have omitted the Williams Grove non sanctioned weekly events?



They have not yet released thier full schedule. 



BillV99
December 29, 2017 at 12:56:41 PM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply

IRA scedule added.



BillV99
January 04, 2018 at 08:19:43 PM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply

Schedules added...

  • Williams Grove,PA
  • Port Royal,PA
  • Butler,MI
  • MSCS 


blazer00
January 04, 2018 at 09:16:45 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2344
Reply

I always appreciate the effort, so thanks. I do wonder about the significance of money won as criteria for the rankings. A couple examples are that the WoO guys immediately have an advantage in that category, and a second is that over 55% of Kyle Larson's 2017 earnings came from one race. That being his second place run at the Nationals. When looking at the last two years, and the rankings of Gravel and Sweet, that appears to be right on. In 2016 Gravel finished 3rd, one position ahead of Sweet in 4th in WoO points, and in 2017 Sweet finished 2nd, one position ahead of Gravel in 3rd in WoO points. So those two are pretty darn tight, with Gravel having more wins and the edge of the two. But......I have a hard time with Shane Stewart fininshing 3rd in the rankings with a 6th place finish in 2016 WoO standings, and a 5th place finish in 2017. His win total is misleading to a degree at twenty-one over the two years. He had sixteen WoO wins total during 2016 (8), 1017 (8) according to the WoO web page. Sweet had thirteen WoO wins over the two years, 5 in 2017 and 8 in 2017. Based on the top 5 performances over the last two years with the WoO, Sweet has definitely been stronger than Stewart. 

Like I said, I appreciate your efforts, and this is only one person's opinion. I personally think that the information we recieve from computer driven data, could still use a little tweeking from a person once in a while. Some things are still better thought out, than just programmed out.



revjimk
January 04, 2018 at 11:32:23 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 4292
Reply

Thats pretty amazing. I can't imagine how much time you spend doing this!

One question: can i assume Midgets are not listed in wingless  list? Do you do a Midget list?

Thanks!!!!! :)



BillV99
January 05, 2018 at 07:47:37 AM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on January 04 2018 at 09:16:45 PM

I always appreciate the effort, so thanks. I do wonder about the significance of money won as criteria for the rankings. A couple examples are that the WoO guys immediately have an advantage in that category, and a second is that over 55% of Kyle Larson's 2017 earnings came from one race. That being his second place run at the Nationals. When looking at the last two years, and the rankings of Gravel and Sweet, that appears to be right on. In 2016 Gravel finished 3rd, one position ahead of Sweet in 4th in WoO points, and in 2017 Sweet finished 2nd, one position ahead of Gravel in 3rd in WoO points. So those two are pretty darn tight, with Gravel having more wins and the edge of the two. But......I have a hard time with Shane Stewart fininshing 3rd in the rankings with a 6th place finish in 2016 WoO standings, and a 5th place finish in 2017. His win total is misleading to a degree at twenty-one over the two years. He had sixteen WoO wins total during 2016 (8), 1017 (8) according to the WoO web page. Sweet had thirteen WoO wins over the two years, 5 in 2017 and 8 in 2017. Based on the top 5 performances over the last two years with the WoO, Sweet has definitely been stronger than Stewart. 

Like I said, I appreciate your efforts, and this is only one person's opinion. I personally think that the information we recieve from computer driven data, could still use a little tweeking from a person once in a while. Some things are still better thought out, than just programmed out.



I do appreciate your opinions on it.  I don't pretend to think my rankings are perfect, and truly reflects who’s better than others.  I just always been interested in the pure numbers aspect in the sporting world, and have always been interested in seeing the computer generated rankings across multiple sports.  At the end of the day they mean nothing, and is just a talking point when discussing who is better than who.  Could you have a valid argument on #4 should be #3, #22 is way too high, #43 should be higher, of course!  But at the end of the day, here's what my numbers show.

When I first started compiling the results, I spent a lot of time working through the formula and adjusting them, and when I got to a point where I was satisfied with them, I have kept that formula.  Sure, the money aspect of World of Outlaw races, and especially the Knoxville Nationals, sometimes skew the numbers.  But at the end of the day, I just felt to totally ignore the money stat is not correct.  There has to be something for a driver to run a full Outlaw schedule, running against the best every night.  That has to count for something.

But the money aspect is still not all I rank on.  A simple breakdown of my rankings are as follows...
    -- 20% money
    -- 30% wins
    -- 50% average finish

But each of those categories get broken down even more.  For example, money earned, wins, and average finish in the 'higher' ranked races weigh more than they do in 'lower' ranked races.  But trust me when I say, even if I would lower the money % down to 5, the list would still look very similar.



dsc1600
January 05, 2018 at 08:13:23 AM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2533
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on January 04 2018 at 09:16:45 PM

I always appreciate the effort, so thanks. I do wonder about the significance of money won as criteria for the rankings. A couple examples are that the WoO guys immediately have an advantage in that category, and a second is that over 55% of Kyle Larson's 2017 earnings came from one race. That being his second place run at the Nationals. When looking at the last two years, and the rankings of Gravel and Sweet, that appears to be right on. In 2016 Gravel finished 3rd, one position ahead of Sweet in 4th in WoO points, and in 2017 Sweet finished 2nd, one position ahead of Gravel in 3rd in WoO points. So those two are pretty darn tight, with Gravel having more wins and the edge of the two. But......I have a hard time with Shane Stewart fininshing 3rd in the rankings with a 6th place finish in 2016 WoO standings, and a 5th place finish in 2017. His win total is misleading to a degree at twenty-one over the two years. He had sixteen WoO wins total during 2016 (8), 1017 (8) according to the WoO web page. Sweet had thirteen WoO wins over the two years, 5 in 2017 and 8 in 2017. Based on the top 5 performances over the last two years with the WoO, Sweet has definitely been stronger than Stewart. 

Like I said, I appreciate your efforts, and this is only one person's opinion. I personally think that the information we recieve from computer driven data, could still use a little tweeking from a person once in a while. Some things are still better thought out, than just programmed out.



I hear you, but you also have to remember Shane had some significant non-sanctioned wins In 2016 and 2017. He won at Winter Heat At Cocopah In 2016 as well as the winning the Cappy Classic that year. In 2017 he won the Front Row challenge which paid 20k. 



BillV99
January 05, 2018 at 08:19:22 AM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on January 04 2018 at 11:32:23 PM

Thats pretty amazing. I can't imagine how much time you spend doing this!

One question: can i assume Midgets are not listed in wingless  list? Do you do a Midget list?

Thanks!!!!! Smile



Up until last year, I've only compiled winged 410 races.  This year, I've decided to start compiling wingless sprints, again, only at the 410 level.  

As of right now, I am not planning on adding midgets.  It's very time consuming as it is compiling and entering all 410 winged races, we'll see how wingless goes this year before I think about adding more.  The hardest part about it are some tracks getting complete results from are very difficult.  And getting thier purses are difficult too, some seem to protect them like they're a national guarded secret!  I can imagine how hard it would be for compiling complete stats on 'lower' level races like 360s and midgets, with 'less' professional race tracks and organizations in the social media aspect with reporting races and results.  Some tracks/organizations at the 410 winged level alone are tough to get complete, accurate results.  Many times I have to dig through their web site or sometimes their Facebook page to get complete results.



dsc1600
January 05, 2018 at 09:13:32 AM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2533
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: BillV99 on January 05 2018 at 08:19:22 AM

Up until last year, I've only compiled winged 410 races.  This year, I've decided to start compiling wingless sprints, again, only at the 410 level.  

As of right now, I am not planning on adding midgets.  It's very time consuming as it is compiling and entering all 410 winged races, we'll see how wingless goes this year before I think about adding more.  The hardest part about it are some tracks getting complete results from are very difficult.  And getting thier purses are difficult too, some seem to protect them like they're a national guarded secret!  I can imagine how hard it would be for compiling complete stats on 'lower' level races like 360s and midgets, with 'less' professional race tracks and organizations in the social media aspect with reporting races and results.  Some tracks/organizations at the 410 winged level alone are tough to get complete, accurate results.  Many times I have to dig through their web site or sometimes their Facebook page to get complete results.



I Think it’ll be fascinating to see the disparity between winged and non-winged money earned. 

I compile WoO-only data throughout the year and I know even that is somewhat time consuming so thanks again for doing this for every 410 race.



blazer00
January 05, 2018 at 01:10:45 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2344
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: dsc1600 on January 05 2018 at 08:13:23 AM

I hear you, but you also have to remember Shane had some significant non-sanctioned wins In 2016 and 2017. He won at Winter Heat At Cocopah In 2016 as well as the winning the Cappy Classic that year. In 2017 he won the Front Row challenge which paid 20k. 



You're right, and they were significant races to win for sure, especially the Cappy Classic and Front Row Challenge. Had Shane been pressing both Gravel and Sweet a little harder in WoO points over the past two years, in my opinion it would be a three way battle for second best ranking. I just happen to think the order of the top four is Schatz by a head and shoulder, Gravel, Sweet and Stewart all within a nose of each other. Gravel has the best opportunity to close on Schatz if he can significantly improve his top five and top ten numbers, and continue to maintain his win totals. Sweet has very good top five and top ten numbers, he simply needs to turn those top fives in to considerably more wins, and not let the other numbers slip. Same goes for Shane.  Again, jmo. A dark horse this year for top four or five may just be the #18 of Ian Madsen, but honestly I think first full year on tour will present other challenges that the team will need to experience first.



blazer00
January 05, 2018 at 01:18:41 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2344
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: BillV99 on January 05 2018 at 07:47:37 AM

I do appreciate your opinions on it.  I don't pretend to think my rankings are perfect, and truly reflects who’s better than others.  I just always been interested in the pure numbers aspect in the sporting world, and have always been interested in seeing the computer generated rankings across multiple sports.  At the end of the day they mean nothing, and is just a talking point when discussing who is better than who.  Could you have a valid argument on #4 should be #3, #22 is way too high, #43 should be higher, of course!  But at the end of the day, here's what my numbers show.

When I first started compiling the results, I spent a lot of time working through the formula and adjusting them, and when I got to a point where I was satisfied with them, I have kept that formula.  Sure, the money aspect of World of Outlaw races, and especially the Knoxville Nationals, sometimes skew the numbers.  But at the end of the day, I just felt to totally ignore the money stat is not correct.  There has to be something for a driver to run a full Outlaw schedule, running against the best every night.  That has to count for something.

But the money aspect is still not all I rank on.  A simple breakdown of my rankings are as follows...
    -- 20% money
    -- 30% wins
    -- 50% average finish

But each of those categories get broken down even more.  For example, money earned, wins, and average finish in the 'higher' ranked races weigh more than they do in 'lower' ranked races.  But trust me when I say, even if I would lower the money % down to 5, the list would still look very similar.



The beauty of any ranking system, is that the end result allows for some debate and discussion. Please don't take my thoughts wrong. You do a hell of a job, and every fan can see the validity in your results. It's not like your results show Larson blowing the "doors" off everybody. ;) (that's meant as a joke)



BillV99
January 16, 2018 at 06:52:55 AM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply

Schedules added...

Winged...

  • MOWA

Non-Wing...

  • ESCS
  • Bloomington,IN
  • Kokomo,IN
  • Waynesfield,OH
  • Valley,MO


BillV99
January 23, 2018 at 06:44:36 AM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply
This message was edited on January 23, 2018 at 06:46:10 AM by BillV99

Schedules added...

Winged...

  • SOD
  • BAPS (Susquehanna)
  • St Francois,MO

Non-Wing...

  • BOSS
  • POWRi WAR
  • POWRi WAR Wildcard


texdel
January 23, 2018 at 08:35:41 AM
Joined: 05/29/2007
Posts: 257
Reply

Bill -

Great info!

Thanks for all your hard work.



BillV99
February 04, 2018 at 09:50:18 AM
Joined: 04/01/2007
Posts: 124
Reply

Schedules added...

Winged...

  • FAST
  • OSCS
  • Attica,OH

Non-Wing...

  • Lawrenceburg,IN
  • Lincoln Park,IN


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