Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

      All the talk about who is and isn't a great sprint car racer made me do some thinking. I feel there are a number of sprint car racers that could be considered the top shelf of their sport. In my mind, the criteria would be:

1) Success racing in a big league sprint car sanction like the WoO, AllStars or USAC.
2)Winning some big races.
3) Winning outside of the home turf.
4) Having a lot of trophies back at the shop.
5) Having a fairly long racing career.

      Using that criteria, I would say the top shelf list would have to include Steve Kinser, Donny Schatz, Sammy Swindell, and Doug Wolfgang. To be honest, it would also include Bobby Allen, Danny Lasoski and Dave Blaney

     There are some racers that I'm not sure of, like Stevie Smith and Mark Kinser.  There are also lots of racers that are what I'd call local legends, but not the top shelf, like maybe Fred Rahmer and Terry McCarl.

      Is that a fair criteria for judging the top shelf? Who else should be on that list and why?

You are sure of Blaney and Allen but not Mark Kinser? And obviously we are only going back 30 years or so because you didn’t include Opperman, Foyt, Hewit, weld I’m sure there’s someone I’m forgetting too. 

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     Yes, Mark Kinser does meet the criteria so he probably should be included as well. I guess I'm going back roughly 44 years as that's how long I've been going to the races. I'd kind of forgotten AJ Foyt. He would probably be considered in the top shelf as well.

      Hewit and Opperman, I dunno. Were their accomplishments as big as their legends are?

     I saw Opperman race once when he was trying to make a comeback after the first crash. He wasn't very competitive on the track at that time.

"Hewit and Opperman, I dunno. Were their accomplishments as big as their legends are?"

You're joking, right?

Dave Darland, Rich Vogler, Brian Clauson - if you are going to list USAC, at least give them credit.

Also, Joey Saldana

Kyle Larson as well

Honestly, you really need to separate the eras. The WoO era started in 1978 and really became a game changer in the early 80s when you started to have a bunch of teams travel coast to coast. The pre-WoO era was ironically a true outlaw era. 

I would agree with your criteria. The best of the best the last 40 years give or take have been the top 3-4 teams on the Outlaw tour. Wolfgang challenged that theory in the 80s, but the crown jewel wins and other neutral events have proven this theory time after time. 

       I am serious and stop calling me Shirley. Both those guys are legends in the sport. Do their accomplishments back that up and put them in the top shelf?

     I don't know how old you are or whether you got to see those two race. Maybe you'd have differing criteria about how to decide if a racer was in that top tier.

Opperman won the Knoxville Nationals. How does he stack up on the other criteria?

Hewit is renowned for his hard racing and his tough attitude. Did he win some big races? Did he win a lot of races?

The difficulty with seperating eras is this.......who determines the duration of an era, and what criteria begins it (or ends it)? Fans who have witnessed five decades of racing are going to have far different views than say those fans that have witnessed three decades. At my advanced age, I begin the modern era in the early '70's when the traveller or true oulaw was born. That did of course lead to the formation of the WoO. That was also the beginning of the end of when the top sprint car drivers got Indy rides. At that point there was a clear seperation in the ranks. Sprint car drivers became just that. Sprint car drivers. And to be a professional, a driver couldn't simply race the local track. Going after the bigger purses became the norm, and with that, tracks all over the country began creating large racing events to attract all the travellers. The early travellers were Opperman, Ferkel, Jones etc........of the early and mid '70's.......and along comes Wolfgang, Kinser, Swindell and a large contigent in the late '70's. The very late '60's and early '70's were also when the local weekly cars began the transformation in earnest from the home built car to the full blown sprint car. Depending on where in the country you were from. But when that movement began, things changed in a hurry. 

Based on my "era" I would place just two drivers in the early '70's on the list. Opperman and Kenny Weld. And the real key to both of them is this.....their accomplishments on the track spanned only about 5-6 years. The drivers in the mid '70's and on fall in to the WoO category. To me, the top shelf drivers are the ones that were able to conquer the country coast to coast against the best in the land. Some did it for 40 years and some did it for 3 or 4, but they conquered the conquerers at the same time.....if that makes sense. Every part of the country has the local conquerers, but local isn't enough. So in the end if you choose to rank the drivers, the two biggest factors are.....who won the largest numbers of the big races in the country, and who did it for the longest period of time. And with that, the list will continue to change, slightly......   I put no more than 9 drivers on my top shelf list.    In no order.....Opperman, Weld, Steve Kinser, Sammy, Wolfgang, Lasoski, Mark Kinser, Dave Blaney and Schatz.  :)

Gary Bettenhausen, Larry Dickson, Pancho Carter, Tom Bigelow........

     You wouldn't put Bobby Allen into your top 9 list?   276 wins including  25 WoO wins, 46 All Stars wins, and a Knoxville Nationals win?  He may have had a few track championships to boot.

    I can tell from your screen name that you'd probably disagree with me, but Kyle Larson is hot today. He may have what it takes to some day be considered a top shelf sprint racer comparible to the other names that have been mentioned.

No, I wouldn't. Hell, my list may be too long already.  My list or anyone else's for that matter doesn't disccount the accomplishments of Bobby Allen or anyone else. In my opinion Joey Saldana, Dale Blaney and Bobby Davis Jr had careers that exceeded Bobby Allen's. At some point, drivers go to the second shelf and beyond. The top shelf is for the elite with accomplishments that are unparalleled.  For sure Steve, Donny, Sammy and Doug belong at the top on everybody's list. And it depends on how big your shelf is as to where a person goes from there....... I happened to draw the line at nine. But that's just me. :)   PS. I do know the importance of what Bobby Allen did for the sport beyond his driver's seat. And if there were to be a list regarding influences and innovating in the sprint car world, he's top shelf for sure. And only a small handful of drivers would make that list.

He has won in WoO, All Stars, and USAC - multiple times in each. He has won in a midget, winged and non-winged sprintcars, and silver crown cars. He has won on the biggest stages of dirt: Chili Bowl, Eldora (in a midget, sprint, and silver crown - all on the same night), Knoxville, Central PA, multiple Ohio Speedweek wins (against very stout fields), California. He has beaten the best in WoO, All Star, and Central PA in a winged 410. And if he were ever to run WoO for a full season, who would bet against him dethroning Schatz?

Though not dirt, he has won in a K&N car, NASCAR truck (dirt and asphalt), XFinity, and Cup cars. 

Ya, I think he may have what it takes to be "considered a top-shelf sprint racer".

Give me a break brother.

Also, for those bringing up the USAC and wingless drivers. I'm not discounting their accomplishments, either. But two facts come to light. The outlaw traveller has always spanked the butt of the USAC drivers head to head in sprint cars, always. We're talking dirt, now of course. Starting with Opperman and Bubby Jones. And second, the USAC drivers have never done well with a wing, while the outlaw traveller has spanked butt with and without wings, and the list of travellers that have done that against USAC wingless in years past is a pretty healthy list. 

I gotta agree with Murphy on this one. Larson has no where near the credentials to be on the top shelf of sprint car drivers and probably never will because of the path he's chosen. A list full of "what ifs" is a pretty hard list to justify and "what if" he raced sprints full time is just that. Gordon and Stewart and a bus full of drivers have accomplished more than Larson. Way to early for his name to be in the mix. Time will tell if that's to change, or not.

A list of what ifs? Only one "what if" in my list.

What am I missing?

Larson is a hell of a racer no doubt, but what you're missing is this....what has he really done that would warrant his being on the top shelf of sprint car drivers? The top shelf is compromised by those who do have the long list of accomplishments or multiple major wins or titles that set them apart from the rest. The way Larson's career is developing, he may very well at the end of his career be on the top shelf af all time best, all around drivers, because of his diversity, but only time will tell that, also. It's like if you consider Foyt to be on the top shelf of Indy car racing, even though he won the Daytona 500, is he on the top shelf of NASCAR drivers. Nope.  But Foyt and Andretti and even Tony Stewart are on the top shelf of all around best drivers. That's where I see Larson being, someday. And he has a good start at that accomplishment.

Oh, I understand your question, now. You may only have one what if, but I was referring to others that may include a what if on their lists.  It wouldn't have been a stretch to have B.C. in the conversation at some point probably, had his career not been cut so tragically short. There are many potential what ifs. And Larson is only a what if, if his career choices do keep him from having a full enough sprint car career to achieve some milestones, which seems to be the case. 

Sorry blazer, but I gotta disagree with you and Murphy.  Great topic by the way---I think it's generating the kind of debate you were looking for ;)

Larson's dominance for that short time frame, followed by the dominance when he returns to a sprint car, and the fact that he can win in ANY race he enters (and is usually declared one of the favorites), makes him a top-shelf (if not THE top shelf) driver per most of your criteria.   He just has another full-time job---which he is also very, very good at.   

Also, a fringe driver on your list may be Tim Shaffer.  I know--many of you are thinking "Only because he won the Knoxville Nationals".    Only.   Plenty other marks on his resume as well.  

Great debate though.  I'm happy to agree to disagree BTW  

I don't know that we disagree, really. I'm looking at the all-time deal with my opinion which may or may not have tunnel vision....lol. If I were asked about the current drivers on the top shelf then yes, Larson makes my list without a doubt!