Forum: Racing From The Past (go)
Moderators: Racing From The Past

Ya know reading about all the tracks closing and reopening and talk about class saturation and so on, think that is just part of the problem today.

many other issues which is causing short track racing to fail. Sure the economy has a lot to do with it right now and has caused a lot of issues for tracks and car counts and so on. But I believe also that other factors that have been issues for years have also helped contribute to low fan attendance and low car counts.

Promotion is one thing , sure promoters don't do it like they use to , not in with the media, via paper/TV and other trade papers and I mean other than Racing trade papers ,not in Websites that can attract new fans other than racing web sites which just notify folks who are already fans to come out and watch a show, got to get folks attention as the entertainment dollar is few and when folks do go to see entertainment you need to let them know you have entertainment for them to watch.

Purses are not near enough to cover costs of just getting to the track,let alone try and buy a tire or part with your winnings , Emmitt Hahn is going to open up Creek Co. in Tulsa with supposidly an all open wheel show, as little as 5 yrs. ago I would of said you can't make it with out full bodied , Modifieds classes and now I tend to think you can, been to about 8 different tracks so far in the area of Okla. and it was when the sprints were there racing for a weekly show or a special show and most all the time the Sprints were the biggest class at the place that night. Modifieds are from what I read and see becoming more expensive than a Sprint Car to buy up front first and then to operate during the race season. Guess you can thank Triple XXX raceco. for the streamlining/assembly line of making sprint parts and making them cheaper. Again the pay for Modifieds on weekly deals is really not much more or even less than Sprint pay is around here. Full Bodied cars are not cheap either and purses for them are even worse about 1/2 of what a Sprint purse is.I also believe with the feeder system of mini sprints around this area ,it has made for more kids to move up with parents loot into big sprints , Modified now kind of have that with Sport Mods but only been around for 3 or so years and full bodied classes just don't have that and you really just have to want to jump into it if you like it. but again no purse money and costs to build one and keep it running is not cheap.

Track size , like I said earlier been to about 8 tracks in the area so far and most have weekly Modified,some type of Sport Mod, B Mod , E Mod or ???, a full bodied class or two , the bigger tracks like Outlaw , T Bird in Muskogee both run on same nights and that does not help but both are big 4/10 or 1/2 miles , was at OMS last Fri. night and T Bird was not runing and still did not have but around 10 or so Mods and for that about that count in all classes and OCRS had 28 Sprints, same way at Devil's Bowl in Dallas another 1/2 mile and Mods,Sport Mods and Street Stocks all in or around 10 to 15 in car counts.Same way at Salina from what I have read as well as Okla. Sports Park in Ada which again is another 4/10 high speed place.

Now got to Lawton,Brill Motor Speedway , 81 and they are 3/8 or smaller and classes have around 20 or more cars , some have 15 to 20 but still better than 10 or so . Just think costs to run a Bigger track weekly is contributing to lower car counts at the places, pretty evident by the numbers that I have seen.

Back when Lanny took over SFS in 02/03 he made that new 3/8 track and done away with the 1/4 mile and only ran a few shows on the 1/2 mile , some going to say he screwed up ,but at the end of the Bruce Holtz era , the 1/2 mile Super Sprint and Pro Stocks car counts were dwindling and not even having enough to run B mains, Lanny I guess seen that and knew the costs to run the 1/2 mile weekly and did away with it. Super Sprints and all the other classes got their counts back up where all the classes were running B mains again ,now grant it towards the 07-09 years some other issues like rule enforcement and so on caused the car counts to dwindle and get down in the lower 20's and then it did'nt matter cause in 09 it was over. I know when SFS was 1/2 mile and 1/4 mile I ALWAYS ran the 1/4 mile, no way could I have ever afforded to run the 1/2 mile, did it one time during the fair races and that was it.

Again this is just some of the OTHER things that I think have helped contribute to the failure of racing facilities, Saturation of classes and running 6 or more is just one of the things, usually makes for a long night for fans get confused of what they are really watching , for intance Mods to a Sport Mod, ASCS Sprint to a Champ Sprint, sure knowledgable fans know the differences but most do not , heard that is what Lanny really wanted at SFS, when he ran Super Sprints and Champ Sprints , most did not know the difference, but he could have say 30 Champs and 28 Super Sprints and well he could have the announcer say there are 58 sprints in the pit area tonight and to an avg. fan I think he would feel like, hey gonna see lots of Sprints tonight and get my money's worth and not realize they were 2 totally seperate classes, pretty good way to do it if ya think about it , running lots of classes is not a good deal and also starting on time and ending it at a decent hour is also quite important to keep the avg./new fan to come back again, ya just can't keep them there past 11:00 anymore, anything later on a consistent basis and you will not get them to come back on a consistent basis, But Saturation is not the only thing I feel. Tough deal right now in racing and as bad as I hate to say it prolly gonna get worse before it'll get better.

J.D.

I think you got it pretty close on alot of it.. One other thing i have noticed at alot of track...They do not have a progam to look at point standings and many tracks you cant even hear the speakers so you know who is driving a car..The good tracks back in the day always had the fans screaming Play ball when the Pledge to the flag would end ..

I went to the races with some older people earlyer this year that use to go to alot of races back in the 60s and 70s and 80s,After the races they both said they were having trouble knowing who was driving what .They went to see some of the kids race that they had watched there dad race years back...They just said the atmosphere was so diffenert...And with so many classes they asked several times during the races what is the difference in the classes.The cars looked alike just different motor with a rear fin and without like with the IMCA type Modifieds.With so many classes at some tracks they got to keep them coming to get them over with on time..It takes away from the annoucer to be able to give each class and each heat a good line up with names......It sure is different than it use to be.

Win as if you are use to it.And lose as if you enjoyed 
it for a change.Its hard to get to the top and alot 
harder to stay there.

"Super Sprints and Champ Sprints" Why didn't they just compromise and have one class. They had a pretty good show with the supers in the 70's as one class. Maybe they would have went back to the times of 50 or 60 cars.

Now you have the same thing going on: modifieds (all kind of different names for this class NCRA, IMCA, USRA), B modifieds (I think there is even different names for this class, rookie mods stands out as one), and now sport modifieds.

Here in Kansas in the 70's Dodge City had the super modifieds and the late models class. That is it. A fan was in racing heaven there. I guess the late models were the support class. I even hate to say that cause there was no support class really. All were stars back then and some legends today.

All the other tracks had the late models and the hobby stocks (hobo class etc. but only two classes.

Wichita might have been the first track in the Kansas area to have more than two classes. But through-out the 70's different nights. I can't even remember what the classes were except for the supers and the semi-lates. He never had a late model class, His rules were always different in the stock car class than anyone else, Salina, Great Bend, Dodge, Hutch, Topeka. But he had a ton of them and they were 75% all equal.

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

My question now days is how many actual fans in the stands are not in someway associated with a car?? How many seats are sold per car in the pits I guess.

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

Warren, To answer the why not have one class at SFS , it was just some way to make more money for Bruce Holtz/Lanny E. just inherited it from Bruce H., actually the 2 Bar. class was invented before the Super Sprint class was, 2 Bar. were running in 87 when they started and run both the 1/4 and 1/2 mile till the early 90's and that was when some racers griped about 2 Bar. starving for fuel and blowing motors on the big track and some wanted to go faster and wanted better cranks , Rods Etc. and at the time economy was pretty good which can help/influence things and boom the Super Sprint (Injected) class was invented, I always wondered that if back in the 90's that if these promoters went to these promoters workshops and heard them say create more classes so more folks can race, had to be something of that effect , cause all of em do it around here and has been at it's worse since say 06/07 it seems.Guess just trying to survive off the back gate as most do to keep the doors open anymore.

On the east coast in Pa./NJ tracks I have been to , the biggest amount of classes I seen at a track was 3 , the rest of them were 2 classes , but again different mentality of racing up there, taken more serious and is still an EVENT/ENTERTAINMENT to go see on the weekends and is promoted as so.

Warren to answer your other question, I bet it would be at least 75% of the folks that are in the grandstands are associated with a Car racing that night at that particular dirt track,Relative, Friend , Neighbor down the street or co worker, folks who sponsor a car,now those folks could bring others who just come with them , guess they are added bonus as the promoter did not have to entice them with Advertising or free tickets etc. to come out, Sure there are some who just come out to watch the races and spectate.But very few in that category I believe.

That seats/pit pass in the pits are what most promoters look at , they look at it with a numbers game, your going to race your car and if you bring 5 folks with you at say $25 a piece, thats $125 and if I pay you $100 to start I have made $25 and that is just Avg. amount of folks some bring a lot more, just the way the numbers game is played today with folks going to race tracks, I think it makes them think they don't have to work as hard at getting a BIG crowd to help them survive , simply put trying to get more and spend less , but the ol sayin ya get what ya pay for usually comes back to haunt you and evidence of that with all the tracks that have closed down lately.

redbandana, Sprints:WoO 410 Sprints,ASCS 360's , 360 Super Sprints, ESS Super Sprints, 358 Sprints, Champ Sprints,E Sprints , IMCA Sprints, 305 Sprints, Limited Sprints, Razor Sprints,URC Sprints,URSS 305's,Ohio Valley 305 Sprints

WoO Late Models, Lucas Oil Late Models, Limited Late Models, SUPR Late Models ,Super Late Models,Outlaw Late Models,NCRA Late Models

Pro Stocks, Factory Stocks,Street Stocks, Hot Stocks , Super Stocks, Pure Stocks,Mini Stocks, Stock Block Mini Stocks, Super Mini Stocks

Modifieds: USTMS Modifeds,Outlaw Modifieds, Nascar Sanctioned Modifieds,360 Modifieds,Limitied Mods,Sport Mods,E Mods,B Mods.

Micro Sprints, Mini Sprints, 600's , Multi's, 250's , Outlaw Mini Sprints,Restrictors,Jr. Sprints,California Lightning Sprints 1200cc

Prolly left out some but just what I could remember off the top of my head, felt the need to confuse you more redbandana, Sorry Buddy.

J.D.

I have been reading about all the troubles that the tracks are having now and I do not have a cure for it, so i thought i would just bring up something that i have been thinking about for a long time. I see in all the adds that everybody wants the most horsepower and the lighest car that money can buy but this does not make the racing better it just drives the cost up. Back in the 100 inch day the 6 cyld. modifieds that we ran only had about 260-275 HP and Norman's cars were the lighest around at about 1400- 1500 pounds. They really put on a great show it was up to the driver. I agree that Norman bought everything that he could to win but he did not buy anything that a lot of the other racers had. the 305 V-8s really did not have as much power as ever-body thought. I remember that on the Wilson dyno that the Ford with the Gurney Westlake heads put out 427 HP and that was the most that he had ever got out of a 305. The hp in that engine was in a narrow band and really was good for a dirt track, you needed a sports car with a 5 or 6 speed tranny to keep it wound up. Bill Sanders had a wild Ford that shock the ground when it went bye but it had the same problem, the cam came on and he spun going down the straight at the Tulsa 3/8 track one night. Most of the really good engines back then had 350- 400 HP with a real wide power band so you could come off the corner and not peak until the end of the straight. I have not touched the light weight cars, will save that for another day. What i am getting at is that for a good race all you need is for the cars to fairly equal, the Imca modifieds started out this way but now I understand that you can spend $30,000 and up for an engine for them. i would like to know shat everybody else thinks about this.

Ray

Ultra Light Motors (can be specialized for certain length/type race tracks) ,Tires of Today (Soft Compounds), Titanium/Lite Weight Parts and not just talking the Sprint classes only ,Late Models and Modifieds as well.

Enforcement of rules at race tracks can be a touchy subject with folks/race track promoters these days, with all the politically correctness we have today in the world ,it makes for a tough situation to deal with ,Lawsuits, etc.,seen that before when tracks try and enforce the rules and racers want to get down to the wording of the rules, lawyers get involved and all that and usually it's not pretty ,plus I think race tracks and organizatons are also a bit scarred they will make someone upset and lose a car even though he was caught cheating and NOT following the rules. Also believe race tracks just don't want to invest in the time to enforce the rules either.

Again to that politically correctness of calling it bending the rules or altering the rules,getting an advantage,Well I still call it CHEATING, bottom line.

J.D.

A promoter told me he sees 3-4 people on average with each factory stock, mini stock that comes through his gate. What they don't get in return, goes to the higher classes- which are supposed to bring in more fans and add to the bottom line.

You'd think adding to the bottom line would help the payouts too, but a certain promoter in s/w Oklahoma says higher payouts aren't usually the answer.

It seems the only thing to do now is to milk out what's left of the sport, until it's no longer profitable. What I see mostly is disorganization of where the power is. There are so many kinds of power that can hurt or help racing, but it seems everybody has the wrong kind of power to truly fix anything.

Money overcomes power, and power overcomes money. The intent behind each determines the short and long term outcome.

That sw okla. promoter your talking about says higher purses are not the answer , I was shocked when he went against his long standing stance of not raising purses,because back in Apr. of 2010 he raised the Champ Sprint purse from $400 to $600 to win and pay throughout the field and raised the start money for the A main as well trying to compete with a few other places that were running Champ Sprints at the time and paying pretty good loot. It was quite shocking to hear as he had told a mutual friend that we both know that you NEVER raise your purse it will not help, Well it helped save his Champ Sprint class in this case as they have went from 8 to 10 cars a night to 18 to 20 a night. As before the raise of the purse , the class was dwindling and the only reason he kept it going was he had family racing in the class.

Brian your right bottom line money is root of the evil , everyone wants it all and not all can have it.

J.D.

I tell ya , the more I read on other message boards , the more I am glad I have learned to stay away from them , putting stuff out there without knowledge of the facts is amazing to me, oh well not much accountability in the world today anyway from top to bottom.

Racing is turning into a thing like going to the lake with your boat..You have fun and spend money and get no money back...

Like the Midwest Mods the lowest class of IMCA type mods they only pay 125.00 to win at Springfield Mo,,but that low pay keeps the people with lots of money out of the class and that helps stop the more money people from coming into the class and domanating it,,in return helps keep it equal..Even if they get 30 cars everynight thery wont raise the payout..I have heard this said many times over the last year or so in SW Mo..I hate to say it but it seems to be working in that class they have got 20 or more cars everynight this year..And the thing abiout it is the guys in the class dont really mind that it dont pay much..You hear them wine if they win and the 125.00 dont make them money for the day .The class runs 4 value relieve pistons and has a vaccuum limit on the cam with 500 2 barrels carbs.And stock 194 or 202 heads with stock rocker arms.2 link rear suspension with solid pull bar.Or leaf Spring and they both have to be the same weight.Also they got a clame on the shocks at around 75.00 each to keep the high dollar shocks out.......My brother Randy is running this class and is having fun..The cars stay very close.

And the Sport or Bmod classes are going to turn into the Amods because the Amod guys cant afford them anymore becuase of engine and shock cost and half to drop down to the Bmod.They will find common ground on the rules and it will work and the A Mods as they are now will be gone..But they will have to stand at some point on the Rules or it will died with to much cost to race like what is killing the A Mods.

Win as if you are use to it.And lose as if you enjoyed 
it for a change.Its hard to get to the top and alot 
harder to stay there.

I was looking the Schee add for his semi down tube chassis. i am not an expert in frame design but this chassis looks very strong in the cage area. when the down frames came out it was a big deal that there was very little chassis flex, now they are saying with this chassis you get some flex with better side and forward bite things just go in a big circle, the cage and kick-downs look just like the Stanton/Challenger frames from about 25 years ago. the more things change the more they stay the same. The add says this frame would work very good with a 305 engine, what does ever-body in our circle of fans think of this, would this help with a 360 or 410 engine?

Ray

rebandana , Smiley Sitton with the Sprint Series of Texas 305 Sprints does the same type deal, pays about $250 to win and $200 to start , that is $50 difference for 24 positions for each race, keeps the top dogs out of it with low pay and Smiley runs it with an iron fist and prolly a good thing if you ask me , one thing I don't like is he runs several of his cars in the series to me that is a No No, creates issues there and should rely on racers just coming to race. Seals the motor after it is inspected and few I doubt try and cheat it , cause I am sure Smiley has seen most all the tricks and or he will send it to French Grimes in Va. and he definately will see if things are not up to what the rules say on the racesaver heads. Good series I think but not all like it.

Ray, It's "Monkey see Monkey do" in this sport , some BIG name goes out and gets one of these semi downtubes and goes out and wins with it, folks will have to have one and sales will go up for Schnee and rest will start copying it immeditately , kind of like the Chassis flavor of the month , JB Ent. was winning a lot in ASCS the last several years and now there are more of em out there cause they were winning a lot , soon it'll be some other chassis, Aaron Lemmons from Tulsa told me one time about 15 or so years ago , Chassis are all pieces of tubing bent up and they put a name on em and most all of em work, but bottom line is getting your driver to feel comfortable in the chassis you have, if the motor runs and you can get the HP to the ground then usually good things will happen.

J.D.

I see the URSS has thrown open a almost true 305 nationals event at Belleville next week. Opened the rules up for the
Texas series to run.

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

One thing for sure is that place will test those 305's , find the weak links if they have any in a hurry. I have not been to Bellville since a WoO show in 81 and Edd French ran Zoomie Headers on a Big Block and it would ring your ears from the center of the infield.

I think Rick said in a post not one blown engine last year. They ran this year on Memorial Day weekend already too.

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

That is good Warren, the 305 URSS deal is doing pretty well up in Kansas???.

This is kinda off topic but does anyone remember the side show at the Mid-America and Kansas State Fair that featured little (1/10th scale) Sprint cars/Big Cars style slot cars on about a 35' oval track that they would strap in live monkeys in and hold a race? I got to giggling tonight just thinking back how funny it was. As I remember it the monkeys would sorta swing their arms at each other as they passed each other. Without a doubt it was all a rigged race and I'll bet the humane society stepped in and protested the whole ordeal until they quit having it. As a youngster it was as good to see as well as the steel cage with the motorcycles and maybe a gocart running around inside. If you didn't get to go the actual car races in the grandstand you could still hear the roar of the cars and almost feel the ground shake as the races were going on. What a great era to grow up in!

The one I remember was in big wooden barrel. It was probably 50 foot tall. I was 10 or so and the first time. I got so scared I ran down the stairs and into the crowd and got lost. A trooper had to stop me. As I remember the guy on the bike roared up to the top where were standing and that was it. Here you go on YouTube. I don't know how current this is? Wall of Death

http://youtu.be/_kX_BpWRpoM

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

http://www.americanwallofdeath.com/

Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes