Forum: Racing From The Past (go)
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Jim, Remember 1st time I went to Enid as a participant, I had a friend in High School who's dad owned Automatic Garage Door Co. (same people who sponsered L. Holman) they bought a old modified #26 for there son Larry Trotter, I built an engine in auto class inline 6 chevy, for it as a class project we went up there for Winter Nationals there were so many cars we had to pit off turn 4 up along the west fence. If I remember right we were in the 6th heat didn't do well so we had to run the C-fea, ran 2nd in it and moved up to B-fea and blew motor up on the 5th or 6th lap.

Remember going there with Emmitt in '82 he had been riding the old man about our motors, kept telling us we needed the new hi-nickel block and this and that so we told him we would build it, took about a month to repaint 1 of our old motors and put it in went to Enid and man that thing was fast until it blew-up!!! Emmitt came in and said that thing was so much faster then our other motors you couldn't believe it, little did he know what a can of krylon will do.

Remember the NCRA day race when every body blew tires out Harold was driving and going pretty decent when that old tube blew in thr RR tire, Roger was working on the car then and he ran out there and grabbed that RR and it melted to his hands, that thing was smoking hot.

My favorite Enid race was in '85 late in September during state fair Shane & Hill had a Enduro race schuduled and it rained out but Enid NCRA did not, Shane called the shop late about noon and said if you guys want to go lets go, we loaded up and headed out it was damn near 1:30 when we pulled out on to Classen blvd. Races started at 2:00 we drove like mad almost wrecked about 2-3 times pulled into track and they were calling for B-FEA so we unloaded fast bolted a RR on and won the B-FEA off the back (17th), track was rough big time nobody would run through the holes but Shane or MP, Started last in A-FEA MP on the front with Ewell,Johnson and Ofixco cars, well Shorty moved into 2nd on the 15th-16th lap was chasing MP who was slowing down (bent tie-rod from hitting the holes) finally past him with about 10 laps to go but then we started slowing down with the same issue as MP but held MP and Tony A. off for win. After race Shorty got clocked by Pete Fraziers wife she knocked him over the LR tire right on the front straight away, he looked like a little pig rooting around on the ground and she just walked off.

Remember Steve Morgan had that black or dark blue lay down car and he flipped through the fence into bottom row of bleachers.

I spent a lot of time in those bleachers from '66 thru '71 they were always full and everybody yelled and cheered for guys like Evard or Cox. Aaron & Reynolds were my favorites back then followed by a list of others, we had OU & OSU sports back then and who couldn't forget Vince and Green Bay in the super bowl but we also had 5-7000 fans in the stands on weekly show and 7-10,000 on specials and got paid as much if not more. WHAT HAPPENED TO PROMOTION!!!!!

Yeah david, it just astounds me how we settle for the status quo. In 1978 we won the Winter Nationals at OKC w/Hills car; Peters driving & we won $2000. Here it is 30 years later & we're racing for $2000!!! Not much progress there.

I looked up where Grady won that 1971 NCRA in OKC & he made $1850.00!! Thats 1971 dollars! Believe $500 of it was lap money. I just don't understand why for a "special" race like this week-end, how we can't get out & hustle up some lap money? The track personnel & promoter used to do some leg work & burn up the phones getting additional sponsers.

Everybody have a great, safe week-end; see ya at the track; Jim

That is a good question about Lap money , only race i see lap money at anymore is the chilli bowl and that is done buy someone other than Lanny or Emmitt isn't it?. I have read the old NCRA programs and seen all the money they won, something guys were not racing for a living then , heck some of them might have been and I was just not aware of it.

If I can remember correctly back in the mid 70's the NCRA paid lap money of $15 for 1st, $10 for 2nd and $5 for 3rd. Now keep in mind that those races where 50 laps back then so a guy could get some pretty serious cash. And then Carter-Maxwell and John Kolb did some type of contengincy money too and I am sure there was some others like Grand Prix out of Tulsa. I dont know if they ever made it public if they offered or paid tow money but I am sure they might had done that under the table for some of the guys. I can remember that ever driver who signed in at Tulsa got 2 grandstand tickets for like $1 each.

The older I get the faster I use to be

jdsprint71, I know when the Chili Bowl was just getting started, they sold lap sponsorships. Anyone could sponsor a lap for like $100. Now I have no idea how much of that when to the drivers and how much of that management kept. Man that was a neat deal when it first got going but over the years it has lost its luster to me. Just like any other type of racing the corporate crap has taken over what was a pure form of racing. Its all about the oh mighty dollar again.

Had a reality check Saturday night when I went to Cowtown Speedway for the ASCS race. Pit passes where $35.00!!!!

The older I get the faster I use to be

I think when we lost our "idenity" & the big shows went away was after the 86' season when Hill quit promoting. Bud carson was hired to make money for the fair board & they thought concentrating on the local racers was the easy way. It took a lot of time & work & big money promoting the USAC/NCRA or NCRA/CRA shows.

Personally I think our hey-day was late 70's early 80's to mid 80's & we just let it slip away. Between OKC on Friday, Tulsa on Sat. & an NCRA Sunday drivers in that era easily made $3000 to $4000 a week! Our deal was a 60/40 split owner/driver. When I work for Hill I made expenses + 10% of what the car made! Pretty good stuff for a 23 year old kid.

I think actually at that time with all the "house cars" & big money owners around several local drivers made a decent living just racing. Besides Shane, I believe Greg Wooley & for a breif period Mike Petes did the full time gig!

Can you just imagine a weekly Friday show that had house cars from Nance; Gambler; Challenger etc. racing here? We had guys like DeWall towing all the way from S.Dakota to race here every week. When champ cars were king, we had Kansas/Tulsa/Dallas & every where they ran coming here to race. What great shows!!!

David Brown in the 20N car used to come over from Amarillo, that guy pounded the ground like crazy. Get this, weekly shows in okc we used to get Leep/Stone/Hahn; 4 different Jennings/PetersSuggs/Matchen/Jeff Forshee/Shouse?MossDale Reed!!! Throw in a Jon Johnson/Randy Willingham/Howie Sewell/Bob Ewell. We really had it made. And we just let it go.

Not sure how to get "big time racing back in OKC" but I'm ready to try. Instead of $20 to get in the stands for a big show, stay at $10 or $15 so people can afford it! More people means more money; etc; etc. Same old cycle. But I'd rather see 5,000 people in the stands than 1500. we still have the premier racing facility in this part of the country & we're not using it.

I saw the ad today for WOO show in Calif. Grandstand tickets are $40 & $45!!! Sorry, I won't pay that to see locked down, follow the leader racing.

Good track in OKC this past Saturday, hope Dallas is that good. See ya' Jim

sprintcar21n, Was at Cowtown Sat. night thought the $35 was a bit steep to, but just the sign of the times and will be at Dallas this weekend for DB Winter Nat. and expect at least $30 if not $35 each night.

A guy who writes for AARN on the east coast sits by me every year at the Chilli Bowl and he said they had a promoters workshop in 06 about the cost to fans and they call it the mathematical numbers game where you charge less and get more people and sell more concessions that way and actually make up in cost of a ticket ,plus it looks good that the stands are full and people see that and tell there neighbors (as they said in this workshop people want to go to the IN thing with big groups these days and be a part of it aka like Nascar has had) plus you get your numbers printed in the press and so on and 5,000 looks better than 1,500 like Jim stated, I have heard Donna Hahn say that they start working on the Chilli Bowl for next year about a week after it is over for that year, promoters have become lackluster and just getting by with local/regional racing is the way to do it today , very sad but true. The Chilli Bowl has spoiled the promoter at OKC/DB/Lawton, He no longer has that desire or hunger to promote like before the CB, does not have to hustle it like before the 90's as that one event (Chilli Bowl) makes his year and the race season is just added gravy on the plate for him , sometimes you lose or break even or make some during the seaosn , whatever it is there is no worry for him as the cash is in the bank in January of each year and no incentive to get out and promote his tracks for the race season ,let alone any special shows.

Jim, I too would agree the last big promotor we had was Hill, I know when Bud took over for FG's they were just trying to save the racing and it took Bud a couple of years to stablize it. Alot of people blame Hill for the demize of racing at SFS at the end of '86 but what those people don't realize if Hill had made big money at that boat race it would have beneifited the racers at SFS. Also about this time the orginial promotors of NCRA were almost gone, Durett had taken over with C.Ray and Lanny didn't get along with them very well, I think C Ray has done a pretty good job with NCRA but with Lanny holding on to 3 of the biggest NCRA tracks (DB,SFS&LAWTON) it has affected the racing around here. We're on these odd ball rules which makes it hard to race elsewhere, as you know back then the promotors tried to standardize the rules so we all could race at differant tracks.

Hill worked year round gaithering up sponsers for the track, same as Bud did the first time he ran the track. Per dollar parts were about the same then, we paid $80.00 for bars back then, rearends were $1700.00 etc. but we were making more money then then we do know by far per dollar spent. You go out there and race and we're paying ourselves off of our family and friends and they 1500 loyal fans burns my ass to see it like this, I pay $3500.00 to the PRO-STOCKS in pt fund per year, I've given out approximately another $7500.00 in tires between both sprint classes this year, excluding DJ who is on a GDYR deal and this doesn't count FOC tires to PRO-STOCKS & FACTORY STOCKS. Lanny hasn't asked me to do it, I do it because of guys like you all who have supported racing at SFS over the years. I'm sure there are other people who do the same as I do.My bitch is part of promoting goes outside the box, beyond car owners, sponsers, booster clubs etc. Its going out and seeking financial support for your weekly purse or special events. Lanny's to lazy for that and he doesn't need the money, he has no drive he's not hungry, it's not Tom's job to do that I don't think because he can't hardly take care of the track side of it.

Well that's my 2 cents, Does anybody remember who the original Board of Directors of NCRA were? Who was the first president? We could sure use more guys like them.

In the early '80's when we had those house cars and motors you could run 100+ times a season in '82 or '83 Janelle counted 108 races we went to in '85 it was still like 60 events, if your driver ran for 50% he could make $500.00-800.00 per week end fairly easy and if he was really good over a $1000.00 per week end. Wasn't to bad a pay day back then.

I've been 3 weeks on the road driving or flying back here a couple of times to go to the races, I'm wore out, going to DB this week end, champ race at SFS next week then Texas nascar race week after that, then I'll be through racing except for testing until first of year if you guys want to get together and talk old times.

For me the hay days was the late 70's up till maybe 84 or so. I can remember getting all excited like a 14 year old school girl when some heavy hitter "Out of Towner" pulled into the pits. Man I just sit here and laugh when I think about those days. I wish someone would have told me those where the best years of my life back then maybe I would have payed more attention to what was really going on.

I think the thing every promoter has forgotten and I use the word promoter loosely, as I dont know if there are any left, is that racing is not about abunch of cars racing around in circles. It's about people racing other people. I dont know of 1 person who has ever been to SFS or DB or any NCRA race cause they when to see a Stanton race against a Maxwell or against one of Jellys cars. No they went to see Leep vs Hahn or Stone vs Peters. The 1500 people in the stands can relate to those drivers on the track because they know them. Now they might not really know them, but they know of them. thats why that driver intro they use to do before the NCRA races was worth so much more than what it appeared. You got to see that driver up close. When was the last time you seen a racecar parked out in front of a local business?? 10 maybe 20 years??? It gave people something to relate to that driver. They where a part of that drivers fan base, because they shopped or ate where they parked that race car out front. I heard Jeff Gordon say one time that he makes more money off of his T-shirt and sovenier sales then racing, and I believe him. Why? Because people can relate to him. They "Know' him. Get your cars and drivers out where people can "Know" him and over time there might be 5000 people back in the stands. I am 48 years old, fat and a crappy driver but I have clients who have driven close to 100 miles to come and watch me race. I gave 4 tickets to a client and his family who live in Gainesville, TX to a race we where running at Cowtown. No one in this family had ever been to a race before ..........EVER!!! They made the 1 1/2 hr drive down, got lost but finally made it and have made almost every one of my races since then. They go cause they "Know" me. Now they have no idea who won, except maybe a car number but they can tell you lap by lap what I did and where I ran. Most of the guys who race with me have open trailer, including myself. Now most of those same guys gripe because of the time you spend at car washes, gas stations etc etc everytime you pull in because everyone around wants to look at your car and they start asking questions and before you know it you have spent 30 min visiting with these people. Not me. I open up the welcome wagon to each and every one of them. I let kids sit in the car etc etc. Now I know the days of the open trailers have long since past, but maybe we need to bring them back.

I am not trying to pat myself on the back cause God knows I am the last one to ever want the spot light, but maybe it is time we as a racing family get back to the simple times and try and win back those fans we have lost and try and win a few new ones over, but no matter what we do as owners/drivers/fans without a promoter who is willing to do whatever to fill the stands it will all be for not.

The older I get the faster I use to be

Just a point of view, no disrespect to any

You guys have breathed more dirt and traveled more miles than this old boy ever dreamed of being stuck in the boonies. Thus I would defer to your points in the end should I be wrong. But a few things I remember

Lanny lost a LOT of money on the boat race too. Also around that time he had a major heart attack, which just happened to be around the time he was fighting with the Late Model guys at Lawton, thus he "blamed" it on that issue. He then undertook the idea of the Chili Bowl which lost money for the first 5 years.

In 1971, there were different owners at each track almost.1972, Lanny bought DB, and had only Shady as his lone famous defender of what he had in mind. It worked. Today he has the lease, not ownership, to SFS. The Fairboard has the final say on many of his decisions if they deem it necessary. Just last year there was a rumor going around that the track was to be torn down and a new entrance was to be put in place to greet all the wealthy horse people. Yet SFS still stands and just might for a while to come. With Tulsa gone, that makes Lanny the last man standing when it comes to the milestone tracks in Ok. SHOULD more money come in the speedway, I place $20 on the chance that the lease or fees would go up. Who knows what he is paying now. Just like the guy paying a horrendous amount of child support fears, get a raise, owe more in the long run.

Furthermore, there are 3 tracks to run now , with 3-4 nights a week. That means each track needs it's own core crew, and they have their on issues. He is spread pretty thin when it comes to time. There was a time when you could call Lanny at his house and he would answer most times, I don't think you can get him that easy now. I had not talked to him in 20 years, he doesn't even know who I am, yet I still find him approachable today.

The late 70's early 80's were a great time for these cars in terms of money. Oil money in the hands of those who could not see the end of the boom made a lot of the momentum there. Remember, the rest of the country was in a recession. Even the best srtrippers in town made a $1,000 a night sometimes! Planes, mercedes, etc. were all paid for or at least they would be if the wells came in, or in many cases -the loans were approved. Penn Square helped a lot until it needed help back and there was none. We hoped the bust was a short downturn but it was not. The boat race didn't help, and if I recall, many considered Hill and Edwards almost as one. BOTH were great promoters(I thank Hill for the NCRA/USAC/CRA shows he brought in). All this while sprint car racing was coming in and the need for a professional looking rig got even higher priority. Less money got paid to the racers,and bigger rigs pulled in while car counts still suffered. Engine costs soared out of this world for a regular show as well. Rumor has it there are $25k engines out there now in the super sprint class. Adjusted for inflation, that was enough to get a decent motor for the NCRA/USAC show. And for the most part, the racers have not been promoting themselves like they used to-open trailers, parking in front of sponsors business, handouts etc. I haven't seen one sprint type race car on Sheilds in 25 -30 years. Used to see them all the time. I ALWAYS looked for Bob Ewell when he came through Ardmore. Many that you and I both admire lost interest when the wings were put on(safety needed). It's really been one thing right after another. A huge beast for one man to fight. The racers need to step in and do more. Positive energy goes to positive energy, if they help themselves, they just might get help. A hunger that rings of a common thread, gets fed......great, now i sound like Jesse Jackson

Still today, I think of Harold Leep when I see Danny Jennings leading in the Goodyear colors, or Bobby Walker came to mind when I saw Little Joe Woods climb back to 2nd after a slight accident and restarting on the back. Amazing talent I've found these days! I know there is a lot more. Racing does motivate many of us in our daily lives, and when no one is looking, we even consider ourselves racers because we are inspired by what we've seen under the lights. Just an opinion

Great points Brian. Most folks have no idea on the logistics of putting a race program together, from # 1, leasing the track, to hiring ticket takers, concession workers, track workers, all of who need to be paid. Let's not forget track prep, insurance, Light bills & general maintainence.

I know for a fact when the transmission went out in the SFS water truck this summer, Lanny went into panic mode, called me immediately, & we got the problem fixed in a timely manner. I also know the cost was rather large & un-expected. I've seen promoters lose everything, homes, family etc. sometimes they are at the mercy of weather gods or a bad economy.

I remember Larry Hill, the day after the first USAC/NCRA show in 83', he already started putting the 84' show together. A full year in advance! When you talk about the press, TV, Radio, Newspaper etc.; that is a huge number & if that race rains out; OUCH!!

On the other hand I've watched promoters leave with SUITCASES full of cash after a successfull show. The big thing is more promoters need to work together, like the original NCRA to benefit themselves AND the racers.

I'm sorry but this attitude of " If you don't like it go race somewhere else" is just awful. The RACERS are the show, they get paid to do this & should be treated like professionals.

Yeah, I agree Danny is for sure a throwback racer, and after this past week-end I see great things ahead for Lee also! If & WHEN Brandon gets the 600 pound back luck gorilla off his back, he has the talent to be every bit as good as his dad.

God I love this stuff!!!!

Jim, This is a good shot, that #1 of Aaron's was one of my favorite cars, it had a neat paint job. The old man's car wasn't to shabby either.

I remember Aaron winning an A-FEA. at OKC in this car and he had an old M&H Race Master 9:50-15 grooved up in square blocks almost like an old knobbie. Marsh about this time came out with those Humper Recaps that were very soft for those days.

This #1 is that the car Larry drove or is it the #8 that you guys had? I believe George Stephens bought the #01 that had the trailing torsion arms and ran it as a modified for a year or two.

I also think Grady Wade might have drove the #01 when Aaron still had it and it was painted very similar to this #1.

Brian, I had to think hard before I responed to this, I do believe you raise some good points. Yes he lost money at the boat race I'm guessing $100,000.00-$150,000.00, that was a big load in those days and I know for a fact Lanny gave racers money or parts for years that I'm sure he's never got paid back. I'm not beating Lanny up for his promoting in the 70's thru the 90's hell if he hadn't taken the track over this time we probably would not be racing in OKC on a weekly basis right now.

I don't know what his lease % is but I bet you that $20 it's not near as bad as you think, I would almost bet it's 10% or less on the front gate. Now I do agree the Fairboard would like to see the track gone, the facility is run down and needs some help, I damn sure don't think that's Lanny's problem unless his lease states so and Lanny's not that crazy to sign something like that.

Lanny has been a smart business man for years, I have no idea what his financial state is, he may have money he may be broke, I really don't care one way or the other. What I do feel like is he is not promoting this track, he may be stretched thin this I would not doubt but then he needs to put somebody in charge to run it. Bad track week after week has nothing to do with promoting, inconsistent rule enforcement weither procedual or technical is a big problem with car counts and that attitude of IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE is not right.

I also agree with you about racers not promoting themselves anymore that's something we as racers need to work on, I always looked up to Bud, Lanny,C Ray, GW, Hill etc. because they led the racers and officials etc. I just don't see that happening now.

Does anyone know what happened to the 333 car after the Avant Brothers owned it. Thanks email [email protected]

Was the #333 the same car as the #999? Seems like I remember the #999 that Myron Rust drove for a while, then it showed up as #333 with various other drivers. I think when I was young I heard Jelly built the #999. One of you guys has to know about this car it ran to much back in those days.

Thanks for being fair Jim and David, as always I truly respect your experienced views. Yes the attitudes and the promotion could be better.

That '84 NCRA/USAC show is a standout memory for me. They were killing the twilight solitude of the OkC sky with the sound of champ cars when we pulled in the parking lot. Watched Tony and Stoney airlift out when they didn't make the feature! Whodathunkit! They had supers waiting on them at Tulsa just in case! Dad noted Ziggy, Howerton and a few others right off the bat. Somehow back then, anyone he admired, so did I. Thinking Shuman drove the OFFIXCO Grant King car that night. Do remember the track nose. Billy Englehardt, Rickey Hood and the list just went on and on. I should know this, but didn't Rickey Hood win that year?

On cars like the 33 and the #1. The older I get the more I think this area had some of the finest basic lines on cars in the country, right along with names to drive 'em. Yeah there were some ugly ones too but then there is always someone partial for those as well. Something for everybody.

Welder, don't know where the 333 car is, but I hope I "don't" find it first! Getting an 80's sprinter this weekend and it is a typical story for me-enough cash to buy the car without haggling, barely enough for a tank of gas to go get it! LOL...Had to do it that way, there were others ready to snatch it up, but then there always are when you're the customer. That puts me at 4 cars(but then i'll only ACTUALLY OWN 2......maybe that's not so bad)! I'm gonna have myself locked up in a padded room if I get anymore. There won't be a need for intervention, I'll already be packing.

I do remember going to a Sunday race in Wichita in 1970. We had Suchys # 33 car & the # 333 was there being driven that night by Jerry Everhart. It was pretty neat really, the 2 cars were almost identical.

Believe the year before Leep drove the car as #999 at 81 on Sundays, with purple trim. There is a great picture of that car in the Kansas Supers page of Racing from the past. The caption says it was a Nance car, probably right as Suchys 1970 car was a Nance also.

Will be gone until Sunday, taking # 11 to Devils Bowl, Chris will be driving. Peters is taking the # 51 to run SS Fri, Sat. will install the ASCS motor & run the ASCS program. Should be big fun!!

Jim

Yes it was the 999 car, and it was a Jelly built car. Him and Jack Walker built 3 of them, the car was sold to Buddy Cumley he changed it to 333 same paint job. The Avant Brothers bought it and ran it as #63. I have one of the sister cars, Freddy Street drove it #44 it came out of Wichita, Ks. but I don't know who owned it then, would like to know. Freddy said it was painted white and had Jerry Everhart's name on it but he can't remember the number or who owned it. Thanks

David, Take a shot at your question ask earlier

NCRA Board of Dir. Lanny Edwards , Al Vergauwen (Spelling?) , C Ray Hall , Stan Durrett

and the Pres. was G.W. Elkins , did not look at a program just all on memory and memory is not what it use to be and probably wrong. Any help appreciated.

You guys were talking about Lanny and the "If you don't like it go somewhere else" statement and agree that is not right, but the guy use to not be that way and still to this day think the money race in the middle of the winter has help him create and be able to say that statement and not have to worry so much about it , Heck at Lawton this year in the middle of the season he did'nt have 35 or so cars in 4 classes to race and was because of treatment of racers, most promoters would have not been able to survive that stretch of low cars and no fans in the stands , just like South Coffeyville closed in Sept. due to the same problem. That is just my 2 cents.

Be at the Bowl this weekend to and we need to get together this winter sometime.

For years there was talk of a Walker car at Avant's shop right along with a 4 bar car(Barnett?). Man, wish I had known that one too. Blows me away to think of all the legendary cars hidden out there humbly hidden in someones pasture, fields or barn etc.