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Topic: When will safety catch up with the high speeds??? Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 6 of 9   of  167 replies
glhayden
July 04, 2018 at 04:37:28 PM
Joined: 12/07/2004
Posts: 175
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Look at the photograph that was posted above, a few days ago; a vertical steel i-beam is actually twisted. Were a catch fence in place, Jason Johnson would be with us today. Case closed.

fiXXXer
July 04, 2018 at 06:31:52 PM
Joined: 10/26/2014
Posts: 1918
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Posted By: Dryslick Willie on July 04 2018 at 03:41:01 PM

The catch fence wasn't supposed to keep Lynton's car from getting destroyed.   Did Lynton's car come down cage first on a concrete wall?    Of course it didn't since Knoxville doesn't have one.    Knoxville's crash fence (or any crash fence) flush with the top of the wall at Beaver Dam probably would have made a difference.       



100% on the money. Time for all tracks to address these issues before we see another "thoughts and prayers for ___________" post on this board. 



wobbs
July 05, 2018 at 02:31:59 AM
Joined: 06/18/2008
Posts: 7
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Posted By: slot car racer on July 03 2018 at 05:07:11 AM

Has anyone else noticed the similarities (VERY SIMILAR) of the wreck Lynton Jeffrey had at Knoxville Friday night? He was very lucky to walk away. His left front seemed to colapse similarly as reports of Jason Johnson's wreck were heard too. In both incidents the other car continued on with no observable damage to the right (rear) side of the car where contact seemed to have occured. Not even a bent wheel or flat tire. BCRA Hall of Fame race driver Bob Machin commented perhaps the left front spindles were breaking. If this is so, with the extreme conditions involved today, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS COMPONENT ON THE RACE CARS or we may be loosing more drivers. Perhaps the loss of our beloved Jason Johnson will help to save other race drivers from a similar fate. USAC use to have a rule that such components needed magniflux checks as a routine after a crash or as standard preparation for their race cars. Obviously, a broken spindal at 100+ MPH on dirt will most likely result in a catistrophic situation, unfortunatly. Magniflux testing is not inexpensive but compared to what happens to a race car in such instances not to mention the driver, it's affordable. How often do seat belts get changed after a hard wreck? Would they be worth changing more often if it could help save one of our heros? Have we gotten too acustomed to just replacing a wing after a car gets upside down and getting back in the race if possible as the most important thing? 



LF Spindle broke??? Come on give us a break. The left front wheel of Lynton's car was still attached to the axle in the car when the car was taken back into the pits on the wrecker! The fact that the Rf is missing would tend to suggest that at some stage the RF corner came in contact with the wall at some stage during the crash. Mosre than likely it made contact with the wall at the beginning as a result of being squeezed.

Speculation like this with people making ASSumptions is the biggest downfall to the internet and modern social media outlets and does nothing productive towards the betterment of the sport. 



racefanigan
July 05, 2018 at 10:06:16 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 219
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I would say it seems like there are a few uneducated sprint car people on here. I do not believe anything broke on either car, when you get the car going sideways leading with the left like Jason and Lynton's both did, it trips over the left side, for a few reasons. 

1. The LR tire is typically at least 9 inches smaller than the RR tire, and runs about 2-3 PSI less than the RR tire, when you transfer that energy from left to right, it makes the car want to tip. Even the front tires have some amount of stagger, and the LF runs about 2PSI less than the RF.

2. The chassis is tilted to the left by default of the suspension, meaning it is already leaning left, so it is easier to tip over to the left.

3, Suspension is softer on the left side than the right side, typically. Even if you run the same split bars, with the left side arms being longer than the right side arms, a 1000 bar is softer on the left side than the right side. Couple that with softer valving on shocks on the lft side than the right, makes it easier to roll that way. The only exception to this will be with a reverse arm car, which not many people run anymore. Even still, with the chassis tilt and stagger, softer shocks, etc, it all makes it much much easier to tip the car over the left than it does the right. This is why you see cars spin out, and when they are sliding with the right they slide right through it, when they come around to the left, they tip over.



SAF92
July 05, 2018 at 10:22:41 AM
Joined: 01/24/2018
Posts: 288
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Posted By: raidersam67 on June 28 2018 at 11:11:25 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMSzkyqLnlk .... crash at 1:50 and 2:50 are similair to what happened at beaver dam,          YOU tell me how many of these drivers walk away IF these wrecks happen at beaver dam...NONE of these drivers in ALL these wrecks were NOT hurt.



These are terrible examples... no way, shape, or form were they similar to the Johnson accident. I honestly believe they all would've walked away @ beaver dam. These were soft compared to Johnson's wreck. Johnson was at top straightway speed and went into a broad facing concrete wall with the top of the cage first. If anything Lynton Jefferys wreck at knoxville was very similar but he didnt hit a concrete wall so was fine. I can tell by your random capitalization you're not the type of person to think rationally and have a reasonable conversation on the internet.



highspeeddirt
July 05, 2018 at 11:06:18 AM
Joined: 01/06/2009
Posts: 164
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Wobbs do you have a picture showing the left front wheel still attached? If you watch the video there is a front tire loose in front of the car after the first roll. I really don't know and like was said hopefully the WoO officials are on top of things if there is an issue. 

The biggest problem with the internet is people can't have a discussion without somebody being a ASShole.



91RI
July 05, 2018 at 11:49:47 AM
Joined: 03/01/2005
Posts: 226
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This message was edited on July 05, 2018 at 11:50:24 AM by 91RI

One of the problems with the internet is that even if you are right you are wrong.  It has been explained that the spindles do not break in these deals, and yet "the spindle broke" argument continues.  Do I need to do a force vector analysis diagram to illustrate what happens in these situations? 

I have personally had my LF stepped on by a RR and gone end over end.  When we got back to the trailer we changed the radius rods on the front and the torsion arms in the rear and rolled it into the trailer.  The axle was bent, the frame was bent, the motor plate was broken, and the front wheels were still on the car.  Seeing that I strap myelf into these things, if the spindles were breaking, I would find better spindles.



slot car racer
MyWebsite
July 05, 2018 at 09:11:28 PM
Joined: 01/28/2015
Posts: 29
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Posted By: kartracer88f on July 04 2018 at 04:07:41 PM

Example of an attenuator. One of these but mounted vertically (and packaged differently for the job)

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228412036_Design_of_the_impact_attenuator_for_a_formula_student_racing_car_Numerical_simulation_of_the_impact_crash_test



Safer crash walls (not concrete blocks and metal beems/bilboards), more  & better catch fences, improved safety equipment ECT. should help theoretically but are the collision/wrecks being intensified by spindle failure in wheel to wheel sideways impacts? I say yes (if the LF spindles were broken) unless someone can prove otherwise. If Jason Johnson fliped because of this where he may have otherwise been able to keep his race car from becoming air born in the first place, he might still be with us racing today. And, if Lynton Jeffrey's crash was intensified by a broken LF spindle then we have a common culprit. Someone needs to take a closer look at this possibility. This component of modern race cars may not have had design improvments over the years to keep up with the increase in horsepower. Anyone agree? Disagree?



slot car racer
MyWebsite
July 05, 2018 at 09:14:04 PM
Joined: 01/28/2015
Posts: 29
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Reply to:
Posted By: kartracer88f on July 04 2018 at 04:07:41 PM

Example of an attenuator. One of these but mounted vertically (and packaged differently for the job)

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228412036_Design_of_the_impact_attenuator_for_a_formula_student_racing_car_Numerical_simulation_of_the_impact_crash_test



Safer crash walls (not concrete blocks and metal beems/bilboards), more  & better catch fences, improved safety equipment ECT. should help theoretically but are the collision/wrecks being intensified by spindle failure in wheel to wheel sideways impacts? I say yes (if the LF spindles were broken) unless someone can prove otherwise. If Jason Johnson fliped because of this where he may have otherwise been able to keep his race car from becoming air born in the first place, he might still be with us racing today. And, if Lynton Jeffrey's crash was intensified by a broken LF spindle then we have a common culprit. Someone needs to take a closer look at this possibility. This component of modern race cars may not have had design improvments over the years to keep up with the increase in horsepower. Anyone agree? Disagree?



slot car racer
MyWebsite
July 05, 2018 at 09:40:39 PM
Joined: 01/28/2015
Posts: 29
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This message was edited on July 05, 2018 at 09:48:57 PM by slot car racer
Reply to:
Posted By: 91RI on July 05 2018 at 11:49:47 AM

One of the problems with the internet is that even if you are right you are wrong.  It has been explained that the spindles do not break in these deals, and yet "the spindle broke" argument continues.  Do I need to do a force vector analysis diagram to illustrate what happens in these situations? 

I have personally had my LF stepped on by a RR and gone end over end.  When we got back to the trailer we changed the radius rods on the front and the torsion arms in the rear and rolled it into the trailer.  The axle was bent, the frame was bent, the motor plate was broken, and the front wheels were still on the car.  Seeing that I strap myelf into these things, if the spindles were breaking, I would find better spindles.



The spindles are not going to break all the time obviously as your experience indicates. But if they do break occasionally it may become quite costly not to take a closer look at the outcome possibilities. Is it not easier to keep control of a race car on dirt doing 100+MPH with all four wheels than with only three wheels and a broken LF digging into the dirt? Anyone else care to share their expierences or oppinions? Peace brothers...



louy57
July 05, 2018 at 10:20:10 PM
Joined: 02/16/2011
Posts: 52
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Reply to:
Posted By: glhayden on July 04 2018 at 04:37:28 PM
Look at the photograph that was posted above, a few days ago; a vertical steel i-beam is actually twisted. Were a catch fence in place, Jason Johnson would be with us today. Case closed.


agree



louy57
July 05, 2018 at 10:35:01 PM
Joined: 02/16/2011
Posts: 52
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Wall..no catch fence..no race...easy decision...love the halo idea...willie kahne on twitter today says basically the wing is a big safety cushion... i look for him to be the mastermind to make that top wing to save lives...big changes coming 



slot car racer
MyWebsite
July 06, 2018 at 04:00:44 AM
Joined: 01/28/2015
Posts: 29
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Posted By: racefanigan on July 05 2018 at 10:06:16 AM

I would say it seems like there are a few uneducated sprint car people on here. I do not believe anything broke on either car, when you get the car going sideways leading with the left like Jason and Lynton's both did, it trips over the left side, for a few reasons. 

1. The LR tire is typically at least 9 inches smaller than the RR tire, and runs about 2-3 PSI less than the RR tire, when you transfer that energy from left to right, it makes the car want to tip. Even the front tires have some amount of stagger, and the LF runs about 2PSI less than the RF.

2. The chassis is tilted to the left by default of the suspension, meaning it is already leaning left, so it is easier to tip over to the left.

3, Suspension is softer on the left side than the right side, typically. Even if you run the same split bars, with the left side arms being longer than the right side arms, a 1000 bar is softer on the left side than the right side. Couple that with softer valving on shocks on the lft side than the right, makes it easier to roll that way. The only exception to this will be with a reverse arm car, which not many people run anymore. Even still, with the chassis tilt and stagger, softer shocks, etc, it all makes it much much easier to tip the car over the left than it does the right. This is why you see cars spin out, and when they are sliding with the right they slide right through it, when they come around to the left, they tip over.



It appeared that both cars started fliping while going straight at the top end of the straightaway when they made contact. Did not appear either car was going sideways before getting airborne. Sorry brother, perhaps you noticed something my uneducated eyes didn't see. I was not there, just commenting on the videos. Peace brother, no need to be insulting....



NWFAN
July 06, 2018 at 06:10:26 AM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2115
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Reply to:
Posted By: louy57 on July 05 2018 at 10:35:01 PM

Wall..no catch fence..no race...easy decision...love the halo idea...willie kahne on twitter today says basically the wing is a big safety cushion... i look for him to be the mastermind to make that top wing to save lives...big changes coming 



It  is definately time for a change that will save lives, thus the thread. We have gotten a lot of positive results and thoughts.  I am hoping that Willie can influence this situation of speed, and safety...


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

MandGRacing96
July 06, 2018 at 09:28:50 AM
Joined: 01/19/2009
Posts: 321
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Posted By: NWFAN on July 06 2018 at 06:10:26 AM

It  is definately time for a change that will save lives, thus the thread. We have gotten a lot of positive results and thoughts.  I am hoping that Willie can influence this situation of speed, and safety...



Will they ever make sprints completely safe?  if so how slow will they be?  My point is, they are race cars.  They are dangerous.  Thats why not everyone drives one.  They can make them as safe as possible and people will still get hurt.  I understand the sentiment after BC and JJ.  But how many sprint cars( 410,360, 305, winged and non winged) run in the US per year.  How many fatalities?  The percentage is tiny.  Yes tracks can be made safer.  But sprints are pretty damned safe. Just my opinion.



wobbs
July 06, 2018 at 09:29:33 AM
Joined: 06/18/2008
Posts: 7
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Posted By: highspeeddirt on July 05 2018 at 11:06:18 AM

Wobbs do you have a picture showing the left front wheel still attached? If you watch the video there is a front tire loose in front of the car after the first roll. I really don't know and like was said hopefully the WoO officials are on top of things if there is an issue. 

The biggest problem with the internet is people can't have a discussion without somebody being a ASShole.



Sorry I canlt get link to work for some reason. I just Googled "Lynton Jeffery Crash". The first Youtube video that comes up shows the crash and you can see right at the beginning Schatz makes contact with the LF which in turn turns him into the wall. At about 30sec in you see the car on the hook going back to the pits. LF wheel is still attached minus tire. 



wobbs
July 06, 2018 at 09:44:12 AM
Joined: 06/18/2008
Posts: 7
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Reply to:
Posted By: slot car racer on July 05 2018 at 09:14:04 PM

Safer crash walls (not concrete blocks and metal beems/bilboards), more  & better catch fences, improved safety equipment ECT. should help theoretically but are the collision/wrecks being intensified by spindle failure in wheel to wheel sideways impacts? I say yes (if the LF spindles were broken) unless someone can prove otherwise. If Jason Johnson fliped because of this where he may have otherwise been able to keep his race car from becoming air born in the first place, he might still be with us racing today. And, if Lynton Jeffrey's crash was intensified by a broken LF spindle then we have a common culprit. Someone needs to take a closer look at this possibility. This component of modern race cars may not have had design improvments over the years to keep up with the increase in horsepower. Anyone agree? Disagree?



Spindle failure is not the cause! end of story. Spreading uninformed, unsupported, uneducated speculation like this is way out of line and uncalled for. 

I suggest you go back and have a look at a few more videos nad you can see that Jeffery's car turn right into the wall after contact was made. You will also see that when the car is on the hook going back to the pits that the left front is still attached to the axle in the car, dispelling your theory.

Out of respect for JJR and the Family I don't want to discuss his accident but again 25 years experience tells me a spindle failure is the last thing that would cause such an accident. Try driving down the freeway sometime at 100mph and pull hard right and see what happens!  



racefanigan
July 06, 2018 at 10:01:20 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 219
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Posted By: slot car racer on July 06 2018 at 04:00:44 AM

It appeared that both cars started fliping while going straight at the top end of the straightaway when they made contact. Did not appear either car was going sideways before getting airborne. Sorry brother, perhaps you noticed something my uneducated eyes didn't see. I was not there, just commenting on the videos. Peace brother, no need to be insulting....



I didn't mean anything to be insulting, however I could have worded it differently. It would be the same as me being on a NASCAR board not being fluent in the technical workings of a Cup car. Someone would call me out there. I simply meant what I said as someone who was a driver/owner, and someone who worked for a team professionally, and just being inmmersed in the sport my whole life. I did not mean no disrespect towards anyone, I simply meant, that it seems that some of the people talking about the issue, are not familiar with what happens to a race car when put in that situation.

From my eyes, Lyntons car hit the fence before it started flipping, that was from the grandstands in person that night. 

Jasons crash from the video taken on the back stretch, he didn't hit the wall until he had flipped once already, I would say it started spinning to the right, and the forward momentum coupled with the chassis tilt, smaller Lr tire, softer Left side suspension all played a part in making the car flip in the first place. Had he been hit on the RF and spun to the left, the car likely would have slid to a stop on its wheels had it not hit anything.

 



RodinCanada
MyWebsite
July 06, 2018 at 10:17:15 AM
Joined: 07/24/2016
Posts: 721
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I dont expect this idea to be very popular on an open wheel forum but if safety is truly the goal shouldnt anything that improves safety be considered. 

Both accidents are a result of open tires making contact. Close in the tire and the risk decreases substantially. Wether you extend the nerf bar and tail section roll bars or add fenders it would reduce the risk.

Now relax. I know the history of the sprint car is open wheel and that it is sacred. That is what sets it apart from other forms of racing. Just stating that less wheel contact will result in less accidents.

I dont expect this to every be considered because it is open wheel sprint car racing and that is the way it is. What I am saying is that every driver knows the risk of racing a car with the wheels sticking out and they consider the thrill worthy of the risk. If they wanted safer and were concerned they would race something else.

Since they dont seem to be worried about it I am not worried about it. Drivers have options and they choose to strap into the sprint car without being forced. The cars are safe enough for everyone who drives or they simply wouldnt drive it. As far as the tracks...maybe a bit different story. Obligation to the commitment may cause a driver to risk something they would rather not.

That is when sanctioning bodies need to speak on behalf of their drivers and until they do. it would appear the bodies are ok with the risks as well.

 

 


Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

slot car racer
MyWebsite
July 06, 2018 at 10:33:07 AM
Joined: 01/28/2015
Posts: 29
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This message was edited on July 06, 2018 at 07:36:37 PM by slot car racer
Reply to:
Posted By: wobbs on July 06 2018 at 09:44:12 AM

Spindle failure is not the cause! end of story. Spreading uninformed, unsupported, uneducated speculation like this is way out of line and uncalled for. 

I suggest you go back and have a look at a few more videos nad you can see that Jeffery's car turn right into the wall after contact was made. You will also see that when the car is on the hook going back to the pits that the left front is still attached to the axle in the car, dispelling your theory.

Out of respect for JJR and the Family I don't want to discuss his accident but again 25 years experience tells me a spindle failure is the last thing that would cause such an accident. Try driving down the freeway sometime at 100mph and pull hard right and see what happens!  



My apology to everyone. I stand corrected, jJust wanting this not to happen again, at least not too soon. The Ragin Cajun is racing now in Dirt Track Heaven so, it's not all bad. Jesus has healed him. Praise The Lord! By the way, I have it from a very reliable source, there are no loosers in Dirt Track Heaven; they are all winners.  JC loves his race car drivers very much. Thank you brothers, be safe...





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