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Topic: Winning a qualifying night and not locking into Saturday's A? Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 4 of 5   of  99 replies
armyduke
August 09, 2018 at 11:29:39 PM
Joined: 08/12/2005
Posts: 243
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The 16 locked in show the format is just fine.  3 of the top outlaws (schatz sweet Stewart); the 3 top all stars (Ruetzel Macedo Kemenah) the 2 madsens and tmac with tons of Knoxville laps. The best posse driver (hodnet). Kyle and Rico not a shock at all. Jacob Allen has been racking up podiums for the last 2 months. Shaffer who won the biggest payday of the year so far. Gio in the Indy race parts car which always runs good at Knoxville. And Tim Kaeding.      Gravel timed bad, brown motor trouble and Logan Dq were only "surprises" .   It ain't broke don't fix it.  Sorry for punctuation errors typing on this phone sucks.   The cream rises to the top with this format .

 



blazer00
August 10, 2018 at 10:25:04 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2149
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This message was edited on August 10, 2018 at 10:26:56 AM by blazer00
Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on August 09 2018 at 02:48:30 PM

How about this..... Qualifying night winners automatically make Saturday A, & for everybody else, keep the usual rules?



Then you have to eliminate the invert......bye bye Hodnett!  Hodnett timed 17th, started his heat fifth (because of invert), finished third, starts the Prelim A Main on the front row (because of the invert), and you want to reward a performance like that with a guaranteed spot in the Nationals A Main? Not hardly! He earned his way in as it is, because of the invert.



blazer00
August 10, 2018 at 10:47:45 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2149
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One of the things people may lose sight of is this. Change the rules/format much at all, and what does that do to car count? Maybe nothing, but......a lot of drivers with not much chance at all to win, still believe that they may at least make the show......or have a good run in the B Feature, which still pays damn good. The reason is simple, beacuse of the inverts they know that there is a chance of at least starting in front of the big guns. They already have ther fill of starting behind them. The Knoxville Nationals, because of the format, breathes life into the chances of the lesser teams from around the country. Exactly what a true National Championship should offer.



Paintboss
MyWebsite
August 10, 2018 at 11:15:56 AM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 1615
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So many ignorant posts!!!!This has been the biggest and best sprint car in the sports history. Maybe they should just give everyone a participation trophy so nobody gets their feelings hurt... NOTHING'S BROKE GET OVER IT.



lpjazz
August 10, 2018 at 11:37:37 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 51
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Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on August 10 2018 at 10:25:04 AM

Then you have to eliminate the invert......bye bye Hodnett!  Hodnett timed 17th, started his heat fifth (because of invert), finished third, starts the Prelim A Main on the front row (because of the invert), and you want to reward a performance like that with a guaranteed spot in the Nationals A Main? Not hardly! He earned his way in as it is, because of the invert.



Just some thoughts on this:

       The nationals is about being fast each and every time you hit the track.  For Hodnett, 17th quick is pretty good with the stout field present.  Certainly not the best, but a lot of cars behind him.  I think with the results of each of his races in your post, you prove that he was pretty fast each and every time he hit the track.  He either had to pass some cars or hold off others from passing him.  Is that not being pretty fast each and every time he hit the track?  Let's ask this question, would a driver who timed in the 30's or even 40's in the rundown on a given night, transfered through their heat, and placed on the front row of the A be able to win the A main that night?  Maybe, but they are still going to have to be pretty fast to keep everyone else behind them both in the heat and the A main.  The invert gives them a chance to salvage the night because of reasons for having a poor time trial, (time trial order, problem with the car, some bad luck) the driver still has a chance of not being buried in the C main or even further back come Saturday night.  It also makes the fastest cars race hard to get into position for the A main and thus creates more passing and excitement for the fans.  You can bet the drivers don't like it and I seem to remember the King voicing his displeasure with the system, but he still won 12 times!

       This brings up the sandbagging issue for time trials to get a better starting spot in the heat.  If you sandbag, your time trial score suffers and then you are further down in the points rundown come Saturday night.  I don't think sandbagging is much of an issue in this format, again because while you would be rewarded for a better starting position in the heat, your overall score is going to suffer.  This keeps the concept of being fast each and every time you hit the track in place.

        If you eliminate the invert, you now have all of the fast cars up front and it is a good chance it becomes follow the leader with very little passing.  Drivers who are the fastest are now in a defensive mode and the rest of the field is faced with little or no chance of transfering through the heat.  Probably follows along with being fast in this part of the event, but not a lot of excitement for the fans.

       Also, it now places even more emphasis on the time trial aspect of the event and it has already been mentioned many times that there is probably too much emphasis on the luck of the draw with the time trial order.  (This can be debated as well as we saw both Schatz and Larson lay down pretty good times and they were at opposite ends of the time trial order on Wednesday evening)   I feel that by eliminating the invert you have basically doomed the bottom half or so of the time trial results to having no chance at making the A mian on their given night and thus ending their nationals by the luck of the draw according to time trials.  

       Every point system or format has its positives and negatives and with the variety you see in the course of a year.....Typical outlaw show, King's Royal format and the Knoxville Nationals Point system, I feel that everything should be left alone.  I find it hard to change a format to a race that has such incredble success from a driver, spectator, and prestige stand point.



Nick14
August 10, 2018 at 12:34:05 PM
Joined: 06/04/2012
Posts: 634
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Reply to:
Posted By: Paintboss on August 10 2018 at 11:15:56 AM

So many ignorant posts!!!!This has been the biggest and best sprint car in the sports history. Maybe they should just give everyone a participation trophy so nobody gets their feelings hurt... NOTHING'S BROKE GET OVER IT.



+1. Format is good, great racing, nothing is broke, nothing to fix



dirtracer74
August 10, 2018 at 12:40:12 PM
Joined: 01/29/2007
Posts: 111
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The format is why this is one of the few races I pay attention too each year. (when not at the track anyway) I would not change a thing. You need to be fast EVERY time you hit the track. The system rewards guys who qualify well, and run the A-main well. You can get away with a little bit in the heat race. Looking at the cars locked in, and where they start, the format has worked again. This is not about the best drivers with the outlaws, or all stars. This is about the best drivers at the nationals. Yes, someone is going to have a good run, and sneak in the show, while others may have a bad night, and not make the show when they would be expected to. This format has been in place for as long as it has, simply because it works. 



SAF92
August 10, 2018 at 12:58:29 PM
Joined: 01/24/2018
Posts: 135
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Going into Wednesday I think we can all agree Schatz, Larson, and Sweet were the favorites... and the format has resulted with them starting in spots 1, 3, and 4. With that its hard to say the format is broken.



revjimk
August 10, 2018 at 01:23:29 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 4076
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Reply to:
Posted By: fasternu on August 09 2018 at 11:15:24 PM

Why not leave the format as it is, just increase the heat races to like 12 laps, and add .5 points for passing points for each car. You could lose half a point for each car that passes you possibly too. You are still rewarding drivers every time they hit the track, and now you’re rewarding drivers that pass a bunch of cars as well. Tie-breaker goes to whoever passes more cars. Just a thought.



I like this idea!

OK, if you already said "cream rises to the top, if it ain't broke don't fix it" etc., no need to repeat yourself. We know there are lots of Knoxville loyalists

Same replies I get from USAC loyalists on IOW when I gripe about fast qualifiers from B starting ahead of guys who qualified in heats....



revjimk
August 10, 2018 at 01:31:38 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 4076
Reply

I'm all in favor of the inversion, but  I like adding a few laps to heats so fast timers have a chance to catch up

SO MANY folks here are in the "its perfect , don't touch it" school... but don't forget the change to Friday format a few years back, which I think all agree was a great improvement....

I mean sprint cars are basically the same as 30 year ago, but minor tweaking has added 200 HP or so.... nothing wrong with well thought out improvements



blazer00
August 10, 2018 at 01:59:38 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2149
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Reply to:
Posted By: lpjazz on August 10 2018 at 11:37:37 AM

Just some thoughts on this:

       The nationals is about being fast each and every time you hit the track.  For Hodnett, 17th quick is pretty good with the stout field present.  Certainly not the best, but a lot of cars behind him.  I think with the results of each of his races in your post, you prove that he was pretty fast each and every time he hit the track.  He either had to pass some cars or hold off others from passing him.  Is that not being pretty fast each and every time he hit the track?  Let's ask this question, would a driver who timed in the 30's or even 40's in the rundown on a given night, transfered through their heat, and placed on the front row of the A be able to win the A main that night?  Maybe, but they are still going to have to be pretty fast to keep everyone else behind them both in the heat and the A main.  The invert gives them a chance to salvage the night because of reasons for having a poor time trial, (time trial order, problem with the car, some bad luck) the driver still has a chance of not being buried in the C main or even further back come Saturday night.  It also makes the fastest cars race hard to get into position for the A main and thus creates more passing and excitement for the fans.  You can bet the drivers don't like it and I seem to remember the King voicing his displeasure with the system, but he still won 12 times!

       This brings up the sandbagging issue for time trials to get a better starting spot in the heat.  If you sandbag, your time trial score suffers and then you are further down in the points rundown come Saturday night.  I don't think sandbagging is much of an issue in this format, again because while you would be rewarded for a better starting position in the heat, your overall score is going to suffer.  This keeps the concept of being fast each and every time you hit the track in place.

        If you eliminate the invert, you now have all of the fast cars up front and it is a good chance it becomes follow the leader with very little passing.  Drivers who are the fastest are now in a defensive mode and the rest of the field is faced with little or no chance of transfering through the heat.  Probably follows along with being fast in this part of the event, but not a lot of excitement for the fans.

       Also, it now places even more emphasis on the time trial aspect of the event and it has already been mentioned many times that there is probably too much emphasis on the luck of the draw with the time trial order.  (This can be debated as well as we saw both Schatz and Larson lay down pretty good times and they were at opposite ends of the time trial order on Wednesday evening)   I feel that by eliminating the invert you have basically doomed the bottom half or so of the time trial results to having no chance at making the A mian on their given night and thus ending their nationals by the luck of the draw according to time trials.  

       Every point system or format has its positives and negatives and with the variety you see in the course of a year.....Typical outlaw show, King's Royal format and the Knoxville Nationals Point system, I feel that everything should be left alone.  I find it hard to change a format to a race that has such incredble success from a driver, spectator, and prestige stand point.



You've lost sight on one important variable in the current format. The heat invert does place cars in the front of the heats that timed in the 30 thru 40 positions. BUT........the Prelim A Main limits the invert to the top 8 qualifiers, unless one or more of them don't transfer from their heat to the Prelim A Main. Then the 9th qualifier and on down is placed in to the inversion to fill the voids. In other words, the fastest 8 cars qualified through the heats for the Prelim A get the invert......4 rows of 2. So, a driver that timed in 30th thru 40th as you brought up could never make Prelim A Main  invert, let alone start on the front row. As it was on Wednesday night, a slew of faster qualifiers than Hodnett didn't make the transfer, so he ended up front row being 17th quick.



dsc1600
August 10, 2018 at 02:30:21 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2413
Reply

Didn’t Hodnett make the show which is why everyone was talking points anyway? The system works, the only thing I’d change now is this whole “if I don’t have a good time trial lap on my qualifying night, I’m going to pack it in and race Friday” stuff. I think they should come up with a plan to make your qualifying night meaningful to Friday in some way, even if it’s small.



revjimk
August 10, 2018 at 04:20:32 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 4076
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Reply to:
Posted By: dsc1600 on August 10 2018 at 02:30:21 PM

Didn’t Hodnett make the show which is why everyone was talking points anyway? The system works, the only thing I’d change now is this whole “if I don’t have a good time trial lap on my qualifying night, I’m going to pack it in and race Friday” stuff. I think they should come up with a plan to make your qualifying night meaningful to Friday in some way, even if it’s small.



Nah, I like the whole "start over fresh" idea



blazer00
August 10, 2018 at 05:22:56 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2149
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Reply to:
Posted By: dsc1600 on August 10 2018 at 02:30:21 PM

Didn’t Hodnett make the show which is why everyone was talking points anyway? The system works, the only thing I’d change now is this whole “if I don’t have a good time trial lap on my qualifying night, I’m going to pack it in and race Friday” stuff. I think they should come up with a plan to make your qualifying night meaningful to Friday in some way, even if it’s small.



Non qualifiers night is suppose to be a rebound night. A fresh opportunity. Why make it more difficult than it is?



Speedbump
August 10, 2018 at 05:57:18 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1312
Reply

I wonder how many other sprint car shows offer 4 seperate chances to earn a spot in the A main?     (qualifiying night, Friday Night regular Show, Speed Sport World Challenge, Saturday night B main) 



blazer00
August 11, 2018 at 11:37:29 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2149
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Reply to:
Posted By: Speedbump on August 10 2018 at 05:57:18 PM

I wonder how many other sprint car shows offer 4 seperate chances to earn a spot in the A main?     (qualifiying night, Friday Night regular Show, Speed Sport World Challenge, Saturday night B main) 



Makes for some hellacious racing, don't ya think? Having those opportunities to watch drivers go balls out for a spot in the Nationals Championship Feature. There isn't another race on the planet that can create that much desire in a driver. The reason for that is simple.....it isn't just about the money at Knoxville, never has been. It's about the trophy, it's about the drivers name being displayed in wood above the main entrance to the grandstand and forever being known as a winner of ""The Grandaddy Of Them All"......it's about every sprint car drivers dream.



dsc1600
August 11, 2018 at 02:23:32 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2413
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Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on August 10 2018 at 05:22:56 PM

Non qualifiers night is suppose to be a rebound night. A fresh opportunity. Why make it more difficult than it is?



So that your top guys don’t just give up on their qualifying night like Brown did and others have in the past.



blazer00
August 11, 2018 at 04:02:04 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2149
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Reply to:
Posted By: dsc1600 on August 11 2018 at 02:23:32 PM

So that your top guys don’t just give up on their qualifying night like Brown did and others have in the past.



Who are you to say Brown just "gave up"? I have no reason to believe that what he said about having issues they couldn't overcome before race time wasn't the truth. Do you profess to know something we don't? A driver knows when there is no good reason to go out and risk something happening....his safety, the safety of others....and those are just examples. Maybe you should ask Brown face to face why he just "gave up".



zippy2212
August 12, 2018 at 11:20:25 AM
Joined: 11/16/2015
Posts: 4
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This message was edited on August 12, 2018 at 11:21:21 AM by zippy2212
Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on August 10 2018 at 04:20:32 PM

Nah, I like the whole "start over fresh" idea



The only change I would make is start the B-main cars 17-20 and the Hard Knox cars 21-24.  It's a small thing but the b-main cars earned their spot on thier qualifying nights.  The Hard Knox guys get 2 shots to make the show.  Other than that I think the format is perfect.  



Speedbump
August 12, 2018 at 11:55:40 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1312
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Reply to:
Posted By: zippy2212 on August 12 2018 at 11:20:25 AM

The only change I would make is start the B-main cars 17-20 and the Hard Knox cars 21-24.  It's a small thing but the b-main cars earned their spot on thier qualifying nights.  The Hard Knox guys get 2 shots to make the show.  Other than that I think the format is perfect.  



I think I might lock in fewer and transfer more thru each alphabet race on Saturday.   Maybe lock in 12 and transfer 12 up from the last race.    That would add a race or two on Saturday and help encourage a run through the alphabet





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