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Topic: Great shots of the Norman Gumm cars Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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Bkcr
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September 01, 2011 at 10:38:31 AM
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Posted By: jdsprint71 on September 01 2011 at 08:51:05 AM

Ray, What is interesting about your statement is the winnnings paid out, 1975 purse and in 2011 , some 36 yrs. later we run for less on Weekly purses and just $300 more to win for Series races. Somewhere along the way inflation has not caught on in the payouts for racing, sorry did not mean to change subject or hijack the thread, just seen that as interesting.

 

J.D.



JD That was probably one of the smallest purse of the year, here are what some of the other tracks paid to win the NCRA feature in 1975: Devil's Bowl Frankie Lies $1,164, Lawton Eugene Hair $1,090, Tulsa Emmet Hahn $940, Wichita Falls Frank Lies$710, 81 Speedway Frank Lies $860, Hutchinson Dale Reed $1430, Amarillo Emmet Hahn $485, 81 Speedway Harold Leep $700. all of the winnings except Amarillo include a tire fund contingency of $150 if you ran Firestone tires. The weekly purse at Tulsa paid $800-$1200. OKC paid $500 for a weekly sweep.

 

Ray



jdsprint71
September 01, 2011 at 11:08:50 AM
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I kind of thought that as well Ray, I remember seeing some of the payouts as well in the NCRA yearbooks, If I remember right I think I remember back in mid/late 70's Lawton Speedway paid $500-$600 to win and like a $100 or so for a Sweep of Heat, Trophy Dash ,A main event win and back then bounty's were put on guys who won a lot, you could win a few hundred more if that happened.

Now at most weekly shows it is around $500 to win and $100 to start for Champ Sprints ,The OCRS Champ Sprint series races are $1,000 to win and $225 to start, ASCS Regional Shows is $1500 to win and $225 to start. I think Goodyear gives you a tire certificate if you run up front in OCRS shows and maybe they do as well give some contingencies at the end of the year at their banquet as well , ASCS I think gives you some year end contingencies and some free or discounted product sponsors at their banquet as well, Oh well what is the sayin, "How do you make a Billionaire become a Millionaire, Get Him a Race Car" ,LOL, so true.

 

J.D.



Racing From The Past
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September 01, 2011 at 02:39:17 PM
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But the big question is was there these high dollar entry fee plus big pit passess? The purses back in the day were made on the fans. Is this not right in most cases?


Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes


Bkcr
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September 01, 2011 at 03:30:48 PM
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Posted By: Racing From The Past on September 01 2011 at 02:39:17 PM

But the big question is was there these high dollar entry fee plus big pit passess? The purses back in the day were made on the fans. Is this not right in most cases?



I have the rules for the 1976 NCRA races out and the entry fee was $10 per car with $8 going to the point fund . All purses were a minimum of $4,000. The minimum pay was $60 for a heat win if there were 3 heat races, $50 if there are 4 heats and $500 for a feature, this does not include any lap or contingency money. Norman bought my pit pases and it depended where we were racing but i am pretty sure that they were less than $5,probably around $3. When I started helping at the Tulsa show the pit passes were $2.25 but you had to join the OCRA and that cost about $10. Norman paid for all my pit passes and he got 1 or 2 season passes for each car he gave 1 to my wife.

Ray



brian26
September 01, 2011 at 04:01:02 PM
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Posted By: jdsprint71 on September 01 2011 at 11:08:50 AM

I kind of thought that as well Ray, I remember seeing some of the payouts as well in the NCRA yearbooks, If I remember right I think I remember back in mid/late 70's Lawton Speedway paid $500-$600 to win and like a $100 or so for a Sweep of Heat, Trophy Dash ,A main event win and back then bounty's were put on guys who won a lot, you could win a few hundred more if that happened.

Now at most weekly shows it is around $500 to win and $100 to start for Champ Sprints ,The OCRS Champ Sprint series races are $1,000 to win and $225 to start, ASCS Regional Shows is $1500 to win and $225 to start. I think Goodyear gives you a tire certificate if you run up front in OCRS shows and maybe they do as well give some contingencies at the end of the year at their banquet as well , ASCS I think gives you some year end contingencies and some free or discounted product sponsors at their banquet as well, Oh well what is the sayin, "How do you make a Billionaire become a Millionaire, Get Him a Race Car" ,LOL, so true.

 

J.D.



$500 in 1978 is the equivilant of $1,650 in 2010-or close to it

$3 pit pass in 1972 is the same as $15.50 in 2010

 

If you spent $2,500 for a race car in 1970, that would be the same as- Just under $14,000 in 2010

 

 

The crowd in the stands overcame the cost, especially when they needed to eat and get a coke. The more people up there, made a better advertising option for sponsors to have billboards for them to see, thus more money. The larger the picture was-the stronger the community spirit , the less it was feasible to upset the constituents that profited from the track closeby, in case an entity wanted to shut it all down. When OkC had a weak crowd, and with no one downtown to defend the track, they simply took it out when they got the nerve and oppurtunity.

 




brian26
September 01, 2011 at 04:05:29 PM
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Posted By: Bkcr on September 01 2011 at 03:30:48 PM

I have the rules for the 1976 NCRA races out and the entry fee was $10 per car with $8 going to the point fund . All purses were a minimum of $4,000. The minimum pay was $60 for a heat win if there were 3 heat races, $50 if there are 4 heats and $500 for a feature, this does not include any lap or contingency money. Norman bought my pit pases and it depended where we were racing but i am pretty sure that they were less than $5,probably around $3. When I started helping at the Tulsa show the pit passes were $2.25 but you had to join the OCRA and that cost about $10. Norman paid for all my pit passes and he got 1 or 2 season passes for each car he gave 1 to my wife.

Ray



$10 in 1976 = $37-38 in 2010

$4,000 was $15,000+ in 2010

Heat race wins would be paying close to $200, or just, under had pay increased with inflation.





brian26
September 01, 2011 at 04:14:27 PM
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Posted By: Racing From The Past on September 01 2011 at 02:39:17 PM

But the big question is was there these high dollar entry fee plus big pit passess? The purses back in the day were made on the fans. Is this not right in most cases?



Yes they were made from the fans mostly, and in OkC it was a guaranteed portion from the front gate.

 

Solid crowd count is the cure for dealing with inflation, and keeping the racers paid.




jdsprint71
September 01, 2011 at 04:50:07 PM
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SFS really had good crowds right up until the end Brian, I mean 2500 to 3,000 and more on some nights every week, ran there all year in 09 the last season and never seen less than 2500 folks in the place , now granted it was not full but it kept a good crowd count weekly for dirt racing in this age and time,I know several promoters in the area around here back then saying they would love to have that many in their stands and you can bet now they would relish with that many in their stands for sure and you can bet Lanny E. misses SFS a bunch as well as he was making some good money at the place, for what he had to pay to rent it for, once it was closed that was found out and I was for one shocked at the small amount he had to pay to rent it yearly.

This deal of closing SFS was talked about all the way back into the early 90's as the first time I heard anything about it was from Charley Ford former ORA President back then, he use to tell me that Don Holtz worried about it being closed even back then when he was the Mgr. of the State Fair of Okla. but felt it would stay around a while, bottom line was they had no money to level it back then and then have something to put in it's place, MAPS prolly was not totally responsible for it demise but it helped it go away , cause it allowed money to be made from the tax deal and be able to level the Speedway and now they are hauling dirt in the center of where the tracks use to be and getting all the land leveled up to about the horse race track height on the outside of the 1/2 mile and then once enough tax loot is collected , something Arena/Convention Center Etc. will be built on it. Drive by the place often with my work and it is still something to look west off of May Ave. and not see that Grandstands there.

Your right on solid crowds keep the racers pay up , but in this day and time unlike back then , more competition for the entertainment dollar and promoters have lost some skills/ingenuity to promote to help keep those crowds coming and they have learned to live off the back gate just about, just let the racers pay for their purse and hopefully the promoter will make a few extra bucks, see it this year with a new type deal a promoter has learned about how to make the racer help pay for his Insurance at the track, you join a membership/sanctioning body type deal to race at his place and it covers your insurance and gets you on a point fund deal , the license is $125 and well ALL have to join to race at the membered tracks or pay extra to race weekly at his place and they prolly get an insurance policy through this Organization to help pay their ins. costs for all to race which are pretty high today I would imagine, not many can be like Lanny E. does and have loot from a big race in the winter and be able to go to Race Insurance place in the spring before the season starts and give them all of the money up front for the season for his race tracks and when ya do that you prolly get a BIG discount and no worries rest of the year , just if rainouts occur then you lose some loot on that night but I bet the discount for paying up front is pretty good. Interesting to see what the next deal is from promoters that they learn at these winter promoter workshops.

 

J.D.



jdsprint71
September 01, 2011 at 04:54:29 PM
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To add to that IF there are any racetracks open next year and places to race at???.




Racing From The Past
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September 01, 2011 at 05:42:54 PM
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Did any of the tracks down there have rain-outs on Sunday night or during the week or any night either the schedule night???


Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

Bkcr
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September 01, 2011 at 07:24:09 PM
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This message was edited on September 01, 2011 at 08:03:15 PM by Bkcr
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Posted By: Racing From The Past on September 01 2011 at 05:42:54 PM

Did any of the tracks down there have rain-outs on Sunday night or during the week or any night either the schedule night???



I remember going to one makeup race on Sunday night in 1969 and it was not very well attended and only had 3 heat races for the Supers. In the 70's if it rained after the heats they would have the features before the heat races the next Saturday, Jay Woodside was able to win 2 features on one night in 1976 If the program was stopped before the heats were finished they would have the whole program on Monday and it was very well attended not as many people as Saturday but more than a Sunday would bring. A couple times in 1975 Norman pulled all his cars back here on Monday. Since the fairgrounds was a public facility the promoters contract was public knowledge The fairgrounds got 40% of the gate and keep all the concession rights. I do not know if the 40% included the money taken at the pit entrance or not. i always heard that 81 Speedway was at a disadvantage because they could not sell beer on Sundays but they are still in businessIn 1975

In 1975 there were 8 modified NCRA races her are the winners and the prize money:

Devil's Bowl Danny Daniels $613.50, Lawton Larry Wilson $599, Wichita Falls Paul Ott $242.50, Tulsa Hershel Thompson $467.85, Dewey Gene See $405, 81 Speedway Mike Peters $398, 81 Speedway Mike Peters $475, Enid Mike Peters $470 This was very good money for the 6 cylinders. Jerry Havil won the champioship

Ray



Racing From The Past
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September 01, 2011 at 07:59:43 PM
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81 Speedway made up for it on Saturday nights. That was always there money night. Never Sunday unless it was an NCRA Race. I think I've heard they raced for $200 to win on Sunday night in the supers????

But I do believe you could bring coolers in on Sunday night. I'll bet you had to pay for the coolers though?? I remember a famous 81 speedway figure from nowdays with his buddies, and they must have had the biggest ice chest you could buy in those days and it was probably steel, LOL. It took the biggest ones of his buddies to carry it, LOL.

I ate my share of Jim's BBQ. It was so good back then. We didn't have BBQ joints back then like we do know though. But that aroma from the parking lot of the beef and pork Qing. When I'm raptured there better be a Jim's at the speedway in heaven, LOL.


Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes


jdsprint71
September 02, 2011 at 09:07:55 AM
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Lawton from what I remember maybe had a few makeup shows on a Sunday from a Reg. Sat. night rainout but not many, Lanny had Sunday NCRA's at Lawton like most had back in the 70's and had some WoO and CRA shows in the 80's which usually were on Sat. when they came through here on the "Sagebrush Series" they were very nice shows,seems though since the late 80's he runs only Specials of ASCS Regional and a few National shows at Lawton and are on Sat. nights only, I wondered why he did not try the Wingless Sprint Bandits at Lawton when they had that series and they came through this part of the country, maybe it was his grandstand size and thought he would'nt make enough money on the show???.

Some of those WoO shows at Lawton in the 80's were classic, especially the one with Wolfgang run from the back and won the deal in the Howell's # 4 car.

I don't think Lawton has ran on another night other than his 2 Day Winter Nat. show in Oct. every year which is Fri. and Sat. since back in the 80's , now OKC would run shows on Wed. night specials for the TNT Sprint Bandits and they had some shows on Sundays for WoO and usually if they made up shows for rainouts , they would do it during the Fair Races in Sept. , ya know before SFS was shut down , they had not run races in 5 or so years during the Fair, Lanny tried it a time or two and lost money and did not do it anymore, had no crowd then , but sure like running during the Fair. But all things change but not always for the better.

 

J.D.



Bkcr
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September 02, 2011 at 09:29:21 AM
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Posted By: jdsprint71 on September 02 2011 at 09:07:55 AM

Lawton from what I remember maybe had a few makeup shows on a Sunday from a Reg. Sat. night rainout but not many, Lanny had Sunday NCRA's at Lawton like most had back in the 70's and had some WoO and CRA shows in the 80's which usually were on Sat. when they came through here on the "Sagebrush Series" they were very nice shows,seems though since the late 80's he runs only Specials of ASCS Regional and a few National shows at Lawton and are on Sat. nights only, I wondered why he did not try the Wingless Sprint Bandits at Lawton when they had that series and they came through this part of the country, maybe it was his grandstand size and thought he would'nt make enough money on the show???.

Some of those WoO shows at Lawton in the 80's were classic, especially the one with Wolfgang run from the back and won the deal in the Howell's # 4 car.

I don't think Lawton has ran on another night other than his 2 Day Winter Nat. show in Oct. every year which is Fri. and Sat. since back in the 80's , now OKC would run shows on Wed. night specials for the TNT Sprint Bandits and they had some shows on Sundays for WoO and usually if they made up shows for rainouts , they would do it during the Fair Races in Sept. , ya know before SFS was shut down , they had not run races in 5 or so years during the Fair, Lanny tried it a time or two and lost money and did not do it anymore, had no crowd then , but sure like running during the Fair. But all things change but not always for the better.

 

J.D.



The races during the Fair here in Tulsa did not seem to have as many people in the stands but there were enough to run the races. The ticket for the races would get you into the fair also and if you were towing a car you got into the fair without any charge. Norman let James Warren pull the 17 to the races for this reason. A couple times I went to the fair in the afternoon then to the races and that was a lot of fun. It was neat to see the midway while in the pits.

 

Ray



jdsprint71
September 02, 2011 at 01:59:48 PM
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This message was edited on September 02, 2011 at 02:00:31 PM by jdsprint71

Back in the 90's when the Okla. State Fair would still run 2/3 weeks , you would get different type shows at the Fair, Sprints , Openwheel 100" Modifieds, Full Bodied Cars , Late Models and of course Monster Truck shows and even had some flat track motorcycle shows as well, they even had an NCRA for Injected Sprints one fair in the late 90's was about the best crowd that I remember the Fair races having, they did try one year having the Championship Finals one night of the Fair and it made the crowd a little better but not like a Reg. night show at SFS.

Ray, they did about the same thing at State Fair, you brought a car to compete and they let you into the fair free and you just paid your pit pass and that was all , at OKC you either had to use the south part of the race track for pit area or use the horse track to pit on as the paved pit area at the north end was reserved for all the Fair VIP's to park their cars on. It was also pretty cool to see a shot of a sprinter going into turn 1 on the 1/2 mile with the Fair/Midway in the background. It's a shame that won't ever happen in Okla. again.

J.D.




jdsprint71
September 02, 2011 at 02:06:03 PM
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It is about Fair time again as I seen commercials for the State Fair, have not been to the Fair since the last year they raced during the State Fair and going to say that was 04 , miss the ol Fair to as the Pork Chop Sand. from the Okla. Pork Council and the A & W Root Beer Jug to wash the Sandwich down was quite tasty.

Plus use to go watch Bozo the Clown in the dunk tank right in front of the grandstands , he was quite entertaining to say the least.

 

J.D.



Racing From The Past
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September 02, 2011 at 05:19:45 PM
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Posted By: jdsprint71 on September 02 2011 at 01:59:48 PM

Back in the 90's when the Okla. State Fair would still run 2/3 weeks , you would get different type shows at the Fair, Sprints , Openwheel 100" Modifieds, Full Bodied Cars , Late Models and of course Monster Truck shows and even had some flat track motorcycle shows as well, they even had an NCRA for Injected Sprints one fair in the late 90's was about the best crowd that I remember the Fair races having, they did try one year having the Championship Finals one night of the Fair and it made the crowd a little better but not like a Reg. night show at SFS.

Ray, they did about the same thing at State Fair, you brought a car to compete and they let you into the fair free and you just paid your pit pass and that was all , at OKC you either had to use the south part of the race track for pit area or use the horse track to pit on as the paved pit area at the north end was reserved for all the Fair VIP's to park their cars on. It was also pretty cool to see a shot of a sprinter going into turn 1 on the 1/2 mile with the Fair/Midway in the background. It's a shame that won't ever happen in Okla. again.

J.D.



"It was also pretty cool to see a shot of a sprinter going into turn 1 on the 1/2 mile with the Fair/Midway in the background."

 

Or the Kansas Stat Fair or the Nebraska State Fair. Maybe the Iowa, Missouri and both Dakotas fairs.


Warren Vincent
Cans 4 Kansas Heroes

Bkcr
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September 04, 2011 at 03:06:47 PM
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Posted By: brian26 on August 29 2011 at 05:50:15 PM

Tulsa 1975

One pic is of a 'monthly high point driver/owner' award, and the other is a trophy dash win.

 

Tim Malone photo



Norman had so many jackets That he gave some away. I had or and passed them on to somebody else, I wish that i had not done that. Mike won a lot of trophies and i gave those away that I had.. I keep telling Mike that he should let me go out and kiss the trophy girl but he never would let me. I remember the night that Linda carter was the trophy girl, she was Miss USA or something wonder woman was later, well Don Engel and Emmit shook her hand

Ray




Bkcr
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September 09, 2011 at 09:53:02 AM
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This message was edited on September 09, 2011 at 09:56:33 AM by Bkcr
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Posted By: brian26 on August 28 2011 at 05:29:31 PM

Mike Peters came in later with a super for the NCRA show at Lawton.



That is the only picture that I have ever seen of the the car with the V-8 in iti in 1975. It looks like a different car then the it does with the six cylinder in it. You can see all the battle scars after 80 races in 1975, there are 7 feature win stickers from Tulsa on the side above the tire, he won 8 features that year, I wonder were the last sticker is. The car looks better to me here than in 76/77 with the taller cage but I am sure that it was safer in 76/77

Ray



Bkcr
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December 10, 2011 at 10:25:17 AM
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Posted By: brian26 on August 28 2011 at 05:21:57 PM

Mike Monatoboy took these shots when the outfit came to Lawton

 

From Mike-

Here are some photos I took when the Norman Gumm team came down to Lawton for modified NCRA races in 1975. We had never seen a rig like this one. What a sight to see.

Sorry I took so long Mike, great shots



My sister was looking at these pictures yesterday and we were talking and wished that Norman had seen these before he passed. He and his wife divorced in 1978 and he did not get any of his racing photos, trophies jackets etc. the only things tat he had were the glasses from the 1975 champions dinner and the pictures and trophies that I had saved and gave to him. He and I were talking on Christmas day in the early 2000s about how much fun we had. He keep upon what Mike was doing, he would always ask me "Did you here anything new about my boy" he always called Mike his boy. When another driver kicked Mike while Mike was still strapped in his car he got mad and said he would take a tire tool after that driver. He was always proud of what Mike had done in racing. Norman passed in February 2006.

Ray





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