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Topic: Winning a qualifying night and not locking into Saturday's A? Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 3 of 6   of  107 replies
Stealth87
August 09, 2018 at 11:22:22 AM
Joined: 04/01/2012
Posts: 356
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I was thinking about this a lot last night. Lots of fast qualifiers not making the show and having to run the B main. I understand the want to make these guys RACE to get in. What if they still inverted 8 in the heats, take the top 2 from each heat to the main, and then the top 10 points earners through qualifying and heat points. This would give guys incentive to race up front, and a fast qualifier that finished 5th in his heat could still possibly get into the show. Just thinking out loud and maybe I'm missing something. All I know is, I'm hitting the road in a couple hours to haul a** to Knoxville and watch the racing tonight! I hope everyone doesnt let the format bug them too much and enjoys one of the best racing weeks of the year!!!!


Real race cars don't have fenders...

Wingless29
August 09, 2018 at 11:24:35 AM
Joined: 08/09/2018
Posts: 7
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Agreed about a possible snoozer, but this is the Nationals. If someone is the best all night and run away with it, they deserve to run off and hide.

 

I look at the heat "transfer" issue a bit differently. It's similar to the passing points being used now at many events. By combining heat and qualifying you are challenging the cars who qualified great to pass the ones that didn't. Those who can move up, those who can't move down. The only two guys to make the A last night after qualifying in the 30s and finish in the top 15 of the A main were Willie Croft, who finished 12th, and Brady Bacon, who finished 14th. Look at the guys who missed the main due to not transfering out of the heat (Logan, Schatz, I Madsen, Pittman, Jeffrey, McCarl, Kahne, McMahan, etc.) versus the guys who transfered with a poor qualifying effort (Croft, Garner, Ball, Thomas, Knipp, Wanner, & Bacon). This is no offense to the guys in the second group who I could never hold a candle to behind the wheel, but which group to you looks like a group of A main drivers for the 2018 Knoxville Nationals?



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
August 09, 2018 at 11:43:34 AM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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Definitely some good points there, but with this, I automatically just revert to the hard truth that the current point system almost always gets Saturday's lineup right while providing incredible racing a high percentage of the time.

I don't think it's worth the risk to change a format that does its intended job 95% of the time trying to get to 100% when you could easily go the opposite way. And when I say intended job, I'm talking the dual purpose of rewarding the best drivers while preserving the entertainment factor from the fans.

I'd be more worried about breaking it trying to make changes that at best would very minorly improve the system.




Wingless29
August 09, 2018 at 11:46:26 AM
Joined: 08/09/2018
Posts: 7
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Very true, and as I stated in my first post, the cream does always rise to the top. If it ain't broke....



armyduke
August 09, 2018 at 11:46:38 AM
Joined: 08/12/2005
Posts: 787
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Reply to:
Posted By: Wingless29 on August 09 2018 at 11:24:35 AM

Agreed about a possible snoozer, but this is the Nationals. If someone is the best all night and run away with it, they deserve to run off and hide.

 

I look at the heat "transfer" issue a bit differently. It's similar to the passing points being used now at many events. By combining heat and qualifying you are challenging the cars who qualified great to pass the ones that didn't. Those who can move up, those who can't move down. The only two guys to make the A last night after qualifying in the 30s and finish in the top 15 of the A main were Willie Croft, who finished 12th, and Brady Bacon, who finished 14th. Look at the guys who missed the main due to not transfering out of the heat (Logan, Schatz, I Madsen, Pittman, Jeffrey, McCarl, Kahne, McMahan, etc.) versus the guys who transfered with a poor qualifying effort (Croft, Garner, Ball, Thomas, Knipp, Wanner, & Bacon). This is no offense to the guys in the second group who I could never hold a candle to behind the wheel, but which group to you looks like a group of A main drivers for the 2018 Knoxville Nationals?



Works out great. Guarentee you that more from that first group will be in the A main for the 2018 Knoxville Nationals than from the second group come Saturday because of the overall format, don't look at Wednesday as it's own show, each night feeds into Saturday where the 24 that perform the best (and avoid major mechanical issues, racing incidents, dq etc..) will be taking that final green flag.



Johnny Utah
August 09, 2018 at 11:53:15 AM
Joined: 07/15/2014
Posts: 1221
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Every year at this time the same debate pops up. Its fine the way it is.




j20s
August 09, 2018 at 12:30:48 PM
Joined: 03/06/2015
Posts: 212
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Reply to:
Posted By: motorhead748 on August 09 2018 at 07:34:35 AM

This hasn't become the biggest sprint car race in the world because the format is stupid. 



Yoir statement is disproven by the fact that WoO themselves has always been the biggest but they also used to have a very stupid format in late 2000's. 

Winning a prelim race and not making a feature is beyond dumb. Any format that is obsessed with qualifying, where luck and random factors are so imperative, and racing isnt happening, is dumb. 



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
August 09, 2018 at 12:50:05 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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Posted By: j20s on August 09 2018 at 12:30:48 PM

Yoir statement is disproven by the fact that WoO themselves has always been the biggest but they also used to have a very stupid format in late 2000's. 

Winning a prelim race and not making a feature is beyond dumb. Any format that is obsessed with qualifying, where luck and random factors are so imperative, and racing isnt happening, is dumb. 



This just doesn't work. The Knoxville system is always about balance. Hodnett passed two cars all night and started on the front row of the feature because of the format. You can't maintain the invert if you're going to add emphasis 

The Nationals format best reduces luck and random factors as much as possible without just lining everything up straight, which would make for boring racing and then you start losing the crowd. 

The most fair format for racers and most entertaining for fans are two very different things - I believe this format does an excellent job of balancing those two things. I don't ever recall a driver complaining about the format, it's us peons with no skin in the game.



lpjazz
August 09, 2018 at 12:53:08 PM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 155
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The fact is the format is the same for everyone....as it was said years ago.....you have to be fast every time you hit the track.  That's what makes this event the Knoxville Nationals.  If you do not transfer through your heat, you just were not fast enough.  I don't entertain the notion of "what an A main should look like".  If you time so-so or poorly, you still have to perform in the heats and be fast enough to keep the top time trial drivers behind you.  Maybe you drew a poor slot for time trials....so now you have another opportunity to possibly salvage your night and Nationals.  Schatz timed great, did not transfer, and then raced his ass off to get in the A main and finish strong.  The system works, you may not like it, but it works.  I go to see the best racing!  Wouldn't you rather see the best put themselves and their machines to the test?  I certainly do!




cjalger
August 09, 2018 at 01:27:06 PM
Joined: 06/12/2013
Posts: 144
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This format for the most part weeds out the best drivers into Saturday Night.  Hard to argue that it doesn't do that. The way the format is set up, drivers that qualify fast can not transfer and move up in the A and all they really lost out on was 3,6,9 or 12 points from their heat race.

Now, one thing I would change from the current format is splitting up the qualifying into two groups. I know Larson went out last and put down a good time. But few drivers are capable of this and outside of a handful of drivers, the biggest race of the year can come down to a pill draw. You could find a way to distribute the points in a way that maybe quick time only gets 100 and two drivers receive that amount instead of one. Groups A and B. I understand that a lot of things have to come to a draw in this sport due to trying to be as fair as possible. But, in my opinion, the car count could rise if a week was less likely to be decided by basically a coinflip. 50% chance youll qualify in the first half or 50% chance youll draw a less wanted number. There would be no need to sandbag if this was the case because your time would be relative to those who qualified around you.

If we do this, we might begin to see more guys transfer out of the heat too. Some of the drivers that draw great qualifying spots only had a top 10 time because they drew in a prime spot. But their car isn't capable of passing the amount of cars needed to transfer, since some of the guys who drew late are just as good, but had a poor pill draw.

 

Only suggestion I have, the fans cheering for transfer spots on the qualifying nights is some of the most fun I have at a racetrack all year. The stakes are high and making the A at the Nationals is going to be a lot of drivers biggest payday on the year since its roughly 10k to start. 

Longer post than I intended, but ultimately managing to make the pill draw less important is my one suggestion.

 

 



dirtfan
August 09, 2018 at 01:38:45 PM
Joined: 01/03/2005
Posts: 54
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Posted By: Dryslick Willie on August 09 2018 at 07:21:24 AM

The only problem with your format is it's boring as hell and leads to heat races with no racing and a boring feature that only gets interesting because of lapped traffic.   The format at Knoxville is absolutely fine, and it's a helluva lot better than the format the WoO runs.    



Exactly.  So far reading these posts, you and saphead got it right.  Knoxville is Knoxville.  They have their reasons.  And yes, the cream always rises to the top.  You have to time your best, pass your best and finish your best to get your name on the brass plate.

 

  I can recall the time, not long ago, when the Knoxville format was the great equalizer, or our best chance of it, for someone from anywhere, to get their chit together for 4 days and make their mark in the books.



revjimk
August 09, 2018 at 02:48:30 PM
Joined: 09/14/2010
Posts: 7594
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How about this..... Qualifying night winners automatically make Saturday A, & for everybody else, keep the usual rules?




SprintFan16
MyWebsite
August 09, 2018 at 02:53:06 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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Reply to:
Posted By: revjimk on August 09 2018 at 02:48:30 PM

How about this..... Qualifying night winners automatically make Saturday A, & for everybody else, keep the usual rules?



No. It's fine exactly how it is. 



dsc1600
August 09, 2018 at 03:03:26 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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The only dumb part of the format is that the World Challenge winner gets a spot if he doesn’t have a spot already. That’s stupid and a gimmick to get people to care about a race no one cares about. 

I could live with the following: if a prelim winner doesn’t make the top 16 (and this is again a moot point because Hodnett is absolutely going to make it) he is guaranteed the 25th spot. 



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
August 09, 2018 at 04:05:09 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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Reply to:
Posted By: dsc1600 on August 09 2018 at 03:03:26 PM

The only dumb part of the format is that the World Challenge winner gets a spot if he doesn’t have a spot already. That’s stupid and a gimmick to get people to care about a race no one cares about. 

I could live with the following: if a prelim winner doesn’t make the top 16 (and this is again a moot point because Hodnett is absolutely going to make it) he is guaranteed the 25th spot. 



We'll have to see on this. I still think it's possible. It's not tremendously hard to put that together. Just looked at some quick numbers and qualifying 11th, finishing 3rd in heat and 6th in A would be 464. Or something like qualify 1st, sixth in heat, transfer through B and finish 11th in A would be 465. 

I think this gets closer than you're giving it credit for. We shall see!




blazer00
August 09, 2018 at 04:20:31 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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Posted By: armyduke on August 09 2018 at 10:18:48 AM

200 (qual); 88 (5th in Heat); 112 (16th non transfer car that took the green in the B main)



Gotcha. Instead of a C main with points they award the same points total of 112 to those not in the B or A. Thanks. 



armyduke
August 09, 2018 at 10:42:46 PM
Joined: 08/12/2005
Posts: 787
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Locked in, 13th or 14th I think. 



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
August 09, 2018 at 11:01:23 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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Got close but yes, he did lock in for Saturday, will start 14th.




fasternu
August 09, 2018 at 11:15:24 PM
Joined: 12/04/2004
Posts: 1
Reply

Why not leave the format as it is, just increase the heat races to like 12 laps, and add .5 points for passing points for each car. You could lose half a point for each car that passes you possibly too. You are still rewarding drivers every time they hit the track, and now you’re rewarding drivers that pass a bunch of cars as well. Tie-breaker goes to whoever passes more cars. Just a thought.



hardon
August 09, 2018 at 11:23:56 PM
Joined: 02/20/2005
Posts: 485
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Posted By: EasyE on August 09 2018 at 06:00:54 AM

Its stupid no doubt especially to give same amount of points for fast time as the A main win. The most fair way no doubt is line up heats by qualifying time and start the feature by heat finish.Top 4 each night lock into 8 car dash determines start of Saturday A main. That is the best and most fair way some fans may not like it but it is.



I don't understand how you can say it's not fair?  The rules are the same for everyone and they have been posted months (if not years) in advance.  Maybe you don't think it's a fair way but this race is all about the money and trophy, it's not like the WOO championship will be won or lost over this race.  Like others have said you have to be fast everytime you hit the track.  But you also need some luck.  With a 50 lap A main, I guess I don't see what the big deal is where you start.  Anyone who makes the main has a chance.





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