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Topic: Schatz's Ford engine
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Page 2 of 5 of 82 replies
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January 23, 2018 at
02:22:44 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: MSPN on January 23 2018 at 08:47:49 AM
Gotta go with Ford on this, his initial response might have been the best of any in this thread, it certainly makes the most sense....
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The way I understand it is WOO head rules. WOO sprint rules says intake and exhaust valces must be in straight line. Ford valves are staggared. A new head is required , and block needs to be changed some for pushrod location. I might be wrong, but this is what I heard. If you read Smokey Y. book, motor co. engineers do not alway move along at a rapid pace. When the Ford hits the track it will be a big media event and Ford does not want to lay an egg.
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January 23, 2018 at
07:24:02 PM
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Remember when the Ford 360 was going to take over the world? Or the Mopar 410? They had their splash, but in the end what did everyone go back to? They should call the TSR Shatz ride the "gravey train with biscuit wheels", TSR will soak up that Ford gravey ($$$) as long as they keep the spigot open, then like evey past attempt at a better mousetrap, TSR will eventually go back to what works day in, day out, year after year, decade after decade.
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January 23, 2018 at
07:44:58 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: racefanigan on January 23 2018 at 01:33:12 PM
I know there are 60K chevys out there. Key word there is some. I wouldn't even go as far as to say most. I was on the road in 2016 and the team I worked with owned I believe 6 410's (Not quite for sure, they were always in rotation at the builder so I never saw them all at once) and I would guess that not a one of them cost 60K, maybe $50k at the most. I know first hand you can put whatever you want into an engine. $10k went into my racesaver motor in 2015, and I inquired about buying one for this year and had the builder give me my options across the board, and his only response was "Well, I can build you one for $10k or I can build you one for $26K, which do you want?" Lol, I'll agree that its out of hand. I just don't want to see this deal get even more out of hand. The Roush Yates deal started at $25K, which is a good price for a good 360 anymore, but not a couple years later the rumor was in our area that after the engine builders (other than Roush/Yates) dipped into 360 racing, that $25K bill jumped to $45K pretty quick, and this was back when the top of the line chevys were costing $30-$35K, they ran well, better than most chevys on a big track and still do, but definitely still out price them.
Im sure Kelly can chime in and tell me whether or not I am wrong here (Seems like sometimes I'm wrong more than I am right lol), and maybe he can shed some light on what the actual cost of a brand new 410 is. Like I said, I'm sure there are $60k 410s out there, but I don't think there are near as many as one thinks. we also gotta keep in mind, that a lot of guys buy their engines used. I know of one team that has 3 top notch 410s that I dont think they spent over $30k for on any of them, and they've been quick time with the outlaws and won at Knoxville.
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Your top of the line 360's range from $48,000 - $55,000
Your Outlaw 410's are close to $70,000
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January 23, 2018 at
08:39:28 PM
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It's Donny Schatz! Guess what? He will win with the ford,or the Chevy.
Dirt is where it's at
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January 24, 2018 at
04:30:28 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: racefanigan on January 23 2018 at 10:32:08 AM
The problem with sprint car racing now is that eveyone is coming up with ways to cheapen up sprint car racing as a whole. Who knows, the Ford engine might just do that. But lets hope it is not the same as the for 360s that cam out some years ago. Yes, you could buy a good one for 25K when they were released, but then they got in other builders hands and before we know it, they out priced most all chevy engines. They ran well, but were unaffordable.
Heres the thing, I will agree that sprint car racing is very high priced, even to the point of being higher than it should be, but it is the premier dirt class, and especially when it comes to running the WoO, it shouldn't be cheap. At a local level, yes it should be cheaper, but I don't completely agree with needing to cheapen up the WoO Cars. If a local guy wants to run an outlaw show, they know what their getting into when they show up. If the cost gets drove up within the Outlaws, those guys have the resources and backing to spend the money, almost every one of them.
We will never solve the cost delima with a motor solution, in my opinion anyway. You can spec out as much as you want, people will still spend. Its happening with the racesaver class, and will happen with every other class until they decide that every sprint car in the country needs to run a 602 crate. To be honest, I do not know what will solve the cost dilemma. Go to an F55 RR tire rule, Medium LR tire rule, only one size option for the LR, would take the engine out of the equation and level the playing field.
Im sure I'll get crucified for the last comment, but fact of the matter is, everyone is bitching because they want sprint car racing to be cheaper, but when someone shares an Idea on how to possibly cheapen it up, they bitch because "I don't want to do that to my car." or "That will cost money to change to that." Well, think of it as having parts of your house that are missing insulation, and it costs you 20% more to heat your house. Saying you don't want to change is like saying "I'm not gonna pay $3000 to fix my house." but then you're still paying 20% more every year.
I hope something can come of this deal, and for the better at that. I can just see this as being a $40k WoO caliber engine that outruns everyones chevys, then 2 years down the road its a $75K WoO caliber engine that still out runs everyones chevys, and now nobody can afford to beat Donny because it costs $75K. I hope I am wrong.
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They should have had Shavers build it for them.
We need more sprint car racing at our home track.
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January 24, 2018 at
04:44:51 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: TheLatestDirt on January 23 2018 at 08:39:28 PM
It's Donny Schatz! Guess what? He will win with the ford,or the Chevy.
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Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner...
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January 25, 2018 at
12:34:40 PM
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Ron Shaver is building it. Surprised people didn't know that. In this months Speed Sport Magazine Ralph Sheheen talks to Ron Shaver about progress on the Ford motor. Shaver says it "should be ready by July". Shaver also says the Chevy that Schatz ran at Knoxville dyno'd at 942 HP. That's a lot of motor.
Meanwhile the Ford Performance # 15 Sprint car will continue to run the Shaver Chevy motor they've always ran. Ford Performance sprint car. Laugh every time I see that on the front wing and the large Blue Ovals on both sides of the hood and both sides of the top wing. Been fooling a hell of a lot of people for more than a year now. 90% of those in attendance at a WoO race have no doubt he has a Ford 410. Very few people buy sprint car magazines or Speed Sport Mag and others to find these things out. Plus in a very lengthy interview Doug Auld does with Schatz in this months Sprint Car Magazine, Auld doesn't touch the "Ford question" which I thought was bullsheet or should I say chickensheet. I'd guess he was told before hand there would be no talk of the Ford or that they've been running the same Shaver Chevy as always. That was a no no I'm sure.
Lawlessness and liberalism equals Hell. NY City,
Detroit, Seattle, Chicago, Minnepolis, etc. We saw it.
Burning hundreds of buildings, a thousand assaults and
dozens of murders. Getting worser and worser.
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January 25, 2018 at
05:04:48 PM
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Is this the RY45 that TSR is trying to get accepted? Or some other design?
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
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January 25, 2018 at
05:44:38 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: madsen on January 25 2018 at 12:34:40 PM
Ron Shaver is building it. Surprised people didn't know that. In this months Speed Sport Magazine Ralph Sheheen talks to Ron Shaver about progress on the Ford motor. Shaver says it "should be ready by July". Shaver also says the Chevy that Schatz ran at Knoxville dyno'd at 942 HP. That's a lot of motor.
Meanwhile the Ford Performance # 15 Sprint car will continue to run the Shaver Chevy motor they've always ran. Ford Performance sprint car. Laugh every time I see that on the front wing and the large Blue Ovals on both sides of the hood and both sides of the top wing. Been fooling a hell of a lot of people for more than a year now. 90% of those in attendance at a WoO race have no doubt he has a Ford 410. Very few people buy sprint car magazines or Speed Sport Mag and others to find these things out. Plus in a very lengthy interview Doug Auld does with Schatz in this months Sprint Car Magazine, Auld doesn't touch the "Ford question" which I thought was bullsheet or should I say chickensheet. I'd guess he was told before hand there would be no talk of the Ford or that they've been running the same Shaver Chevy as always. That was a no no I'm sure.
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90%? That seems a liitle steep.
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January 25, 2018 at
06:38:49 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: madsen on January 25 2018 at 12:34:40 PM
Ron Shaver is building it. Surprised people didn't know that. In this months Speed Sport Magazine Ralph Sheheen talks to Ron Shaver about progress on the Ford motor. Shaver says it "should be ready by July". Shaver also says the Chevy that Schatz ran at Knoxville dyno'd at 942 HP. That's a lot of motor.
Meanwhile the Ford Performance # 15 Sprint car will continue to run the Shaver Chevy motor they've always ran. Ford Performance sprint car. Laugh every time I see that on the front wing and the large Blue Ovals on both sides of the hood and both sides of the top wing. Been fooling a hell of a lot of people for more than a year now. 90% of those in attendance at a WoO race have no doubt he has a Ford 410. Very few people buy sprint car magazines or Speed Sport Mag and others to find these things out. Plus in a very lengthy interview Doug Auld does with Schatz in this months Sprint Car Magazine, Auld doesn't touch the "Ford question" which I thought was bullsheet or should I say chickensheet. I'd guess he was told before hand there would be no talk of the Ford or that they've been running the same Shaver Chevy as always. That was a no no I'm sure.
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Yup, 90% isn’t just steep, it’s amost bumping the meter towards the ludicrous side of the gauge. In my nearly 4 decades of watching sprint cars at a knowledgeable level I’ve found sprint car fans to be some of the most knowledgeable race fans on earth. Nobody is trying to fool anyone. Ford is a sponsor and, if Ford is ok with writing a check to TSR with full knowledge that, for the time being, there is a Shaver Chevy between the rails who the heck are we to judge? I’m just damn happy company’s wanna fork over the dough! I would be willing to bet my money that a lot more knowledgeable sprint fans can tell the difference in evenly spaced exhaust ports or not on the headers than the 90% you think don’t know that it’s a bow tie under the hood. My guess is Ford and TSR will have a FoMoCo design (notice I didn’t say a Ford....any knowledgeable fan knows What sits between the rails is no more Chevy or Ford than the Toyota in my company truck as far as factory parts) when they are damn good and ready and not gonna lay an Egg! I’m a Ford man through and through (got no choice in brand of company truck), and this bothers me in the least...other than the useless quibbling over it. Either way....don’t matter what’s under Shatz’s hood...love him or hate him he’s still gonna kick ass.
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January 25, 2018 at
06:56:50 PM
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Wesmar, last I heard from some guys I raced with today's 410 is double what we were paying. 100% increase. As for HP we could not get it all to the ground and today's racer is in the same situation. We would send are heads out for a refresh, polish the crank journals some new bearings , rings and we where as good as new. 2 motors lasted us a year. Purses, at best, have gained 25% at your better race tracks. Fuel was a big advantage for some that could afford the good stuff, prices were outrageous. Funny, how a guy with a 20K sponsorship could be a top of the line ride back then. Today that won't cover a tire bill for a month.
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January 25, 2018 at
07:46:04 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: alum.427 on January 25 2018 at 06:56:50 PM
Wesmar, last I heard from some guys I raced with today's 410 is double what we were paying. 100% increase. As for HP we could not get it all to the ground and today's racer is in the same situation. We would send are heads out for a refresh, polish the crank journals some new bearings , rings and we where as good as new. 2 motors lasted us a year. Purses, at best, have gained 25% at your better race tracks. Fuel was a big advantage for some that could afford the good stuff, prices were outrageous. Funny, how a guy with a 20K sponsorship could be a top of the line ride back then. Today that won't cover a tire bill for a month.
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It really is insane on the cost of the engines these days.
The last year we did Beefpackers engines (2000) a new 410 was $38,000. Like I mentioned above a new 410 today is $70,000. The things that are being done to the engines is mind boggling. The majority of your top Outlaw teams send them back in after 8 races, some send in after 6 races. They are so on the ragged edge all the time it's unreal but that's just the nature of the beast these days.
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January 25, 2018 at
08:39:42 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: rolldog on January 22 2018 at 08:47:55 AM
I've been behind on the news but I just read that TSR announced at the PRI show that a Ford engine would not be under Schatz's hood until July 2018. Strikes me as odd in that development is taking this long, especially since there are Fords in dirt late model that run very well. Not being a technical engine guy I can't really speculate on what is taking so long. Any thoughts out there amone people that know more? Are they working on more HP or durability or building up a stock of parts?
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I believed Donny explained it well when he was on Wing Nation for last years Jackson Nationals
If you go on Wing Nations archives you will get the answer your looking for.
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January 27, 2018 at
11:59:24 AM
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What does FORD stand for?
https://www.abbreviations.com/FORD
They don't even know how to spell sprint car
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com
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January 27, 2018 at
12:24:50 PM
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Boring....................................If you guys want to argue endlessly about bogus emblems which have nothing to do with the performance of a race team or race car, the Daytona 500 is only weeks away.
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January 31, 2018 at
03:58:15 PM
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I seen a RY410 Ford once, looked like it went hard, was a cool looking bit of gear.
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February 01, 2018 at
07:47:33 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on January 23 2018 at 02:22:44 PM
The way I understand it is WOO head rules. WOO sprint rules says intake and exhaust valces must be in straight line. Ford valves are staggared. A new head is required , and block needs to be changed some for pushrod location. I might be wrong, but this is what I heard. If you read Smokey Y. book, motor co. engineers do not alway move along at a rapid pace. When the Ford hits the track it will be a big media event and Ford does not want to lay an egg.
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Not all Ford heads have splayed/canted (staggered) valves. The Splayed/canted valve design is based off of the Cleveland
engine, which is what evolved into the D3 ford head which Roush Yates used for years in Nascar. This same essential
design is what most late model guys use, (given some exception to the FR9 guys). The Windsor head design is an inline
valve head, and is the model for the ASCS Ford head. When R/Y was building a few 410's towards the end of their sprint car
program they were using a 10 degree Edelbrock design. The issue with trying to use an off the shelf Ford inline valve head
is that all of them have been designed for an intake manifold, to fit under a hood. By contrast the 13 and 10 degree All Pro,
Brodix, and Shaut heads all have the intake runners raised and the port at a much better angle to the valve, because they
have been designed specifically for independant runner manifolds, to fit under the hood of a sprint car. Jeremy Anderson
can correct me if I'm wrong about the 10 degree Edelbrock stuff, but I know at one time they were testing it. As for the
Block the valve layout is the same so moving the lifter location isn't an issue. With cnc's it's no big deal to change that
peramiter these days.The rumor I heard was Durham Racing Engines was working on some engines for TSR as well. They
are one of the top late model builders.
Salina Engine
Salina Ks
(785)823-2273
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February 01, 2018 at
08:01:45 AM
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Thanks for the info Salina, very informative.
I've heard the Durham late model engines are pretty strong. Any idea what kind of HP they have?
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February 01, 2018 at
09:10:18 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: rolldog on February 01 2018 at 08:01:45 AM
Thanks for the info Salina, very informative.
I've heard the Durham late model engines are pretty strong. Any idea what kind of HP they have?
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They are 900+ most likely closer to 950 in qualifying trim. Most are 430 cubic inch.
Salina Engine
Salina Ks
(785)823-2273
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February 01, 2018 at
09:18:17 AM
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Way to go Salina, straightening things out again, how's business? Been too long my friend.....
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