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Topic: 305 Sprint Cars - Looking for interest at Lake Ozark Speedway Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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CSI
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November 21, 2017 at 12:02:50 PM
Joined: 08/24/2012
Posts: 10
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Reply to:
Posted By: Sprint 5 on September 11 2017 at 09:06:29 PM

Lake Ozark Speedway Sprint Fans and Drivers:

There will be a Meeting Saturday September 16th at 5:00 PM to discuss a possible starter class for young sprint car drivers.

We will be discussing chassis and engine types to get input from the area to see if we can get enough participation to try a new class next season. We will meet at the race track in front of the concessions.

If you know of anyone who has interest in this class please spread the word.

Jerry Jenkins, Chuck Hines and Tim Trimble will be listening to your input to see if this makes sense to pursue next year. 

LOS Staff



Everyone has there own opinin and that is what makes the world go around but, I think you need to look no further than the program at Knoxville Raceway and their success in the 305 class (really need to change the name).  The CT525 is a great engine that will blend in with other 305 engines when starting a new class.  While the CT525 will cost a bit more, it's life will long out live the RaceSaver and open 305 engines.  Verses the 602 and 604 engines, which also have great potential, the CT525 engines are new technology engines and are built on platforms that are the futrure of engines, not the past.  I highly suggest any tracks looking at a new sprintcar class, outside of 410's or 360's, that they contact the guys at the Knoxville Raceway for their input on the success and the pluses they have in adding the use of the CT525 engine.  Knoixville Raceway - (641) 842-5431.



iq
November 22, 2017 at 01:11:20 AM
Joined: 06/29/2006
Posts: 52
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Seems very distracting to the sport to have so many people trying to figure out how to make themselves competive. The ascs deal has done nothing but increase costs. Engine builders love it, we have gone from 40 lb cranks to maybe 26 who knows or less we have gone from 7800 rpm to 11,000, we have gone from a nice 625 hp motor that lasted 2 years to 10 race gernades. The cheap 305 deal went away fast. The 360 two barrel is a money pit if you want to compete. We have close to 60 open 360 winged cars out at three tracks within 150 miles most weekends in Nor Cal, we are fine just leave our rule book alone if you cannot afford it get out. It is a big sacrfice for our family to field a car, we run a limited schedule, we don't have a big shop, just an open trailer and the best car we can field, and we love the sport.   



Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
November 22, 2017 at 08:37:09 AM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1457
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Once again, it's the racers (and some engine builders) who are to blame. It's always been that way, and for the most part always will be!!!

As for a "cheap 305", define cheap. The Racesaver engines can be had for well under $10,000 if you build it yourself. Are there $20,000 Racesaver engines? Of course, but they have no significant advantage of the $8,000 ones.

As for the CT525, yes they do cost more than a Racesaver engine. And, from what I recall, the first ones were time bombs. Have they improved since then? I have no facts, but to say that they will outlive the Racesaver engines is a little preposterous, given their history and the short amount of time that they've been in use.

Just my opinions, of course.


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.


W2Motorsports
November 22, 2017 at 09:09:38 AM
Joined: 03/02/2017
Posts: 292
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I bought a Race Ready Racesaver car last weekend. It isn't the top shelf motors that you see selling for $20k all over the place but one of the last races out the car got a top 5 at the Grove with the PA Sprints. I paid $10k race ready and the motor only has a handful of races since being refreshed. I call that pretty cheap so I don't really know what some of you guys are talking about with Racesaver cars getting out of hand. If you can buy a competitive car for $10k that is cheap racing. When I look at the Knoxville rules all I see is a much higher entry point. Here in PA we get 30+ cars most weeks in the Racesaver class at each of the tracks where they are running (we have as many as four different Racesaver series that could be running in the PA area any given weekend) so I would say they are doing something quite right.



CSI
MyWebsite
November 22, 2017 at 09:43:53 AM
Joined: 08/24/2012
Posts: 10
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Posted By: Eagle Pit Shack Guy on November 22 2017 at 08:37:09 AM

Once again, it's the racers (and some engine builders) who are to blame. It's always been that way, and for the most part always will be!!!

As for a "cheap 305", define cheap. The Racesaver engines can be had for well under $10,000 if you build it yourself. Are there $20,000 Racesaver engines? Of course, but they have no significant advantage of the $8,000 ones.

As for the CT525, yes they do cost more than a Racesaver engine. And, from what I recall, the first ones were time bombs. Have they improved since then? I have no facts, but to say that they will outlive the Racesaver engines is a little preposterous, given their history and the short amount of time that they've been in use.

Just my opinions, of course.



Hey Eagle Pit Shack Guy . . . I understand that you want to support an engine that has worked well at your track but, to use the term "time bomb" and preposterous about the CT525"s is a bit false.  The CT525's have been around much longer than you must know and have proven their value and durability in Late Models for several years, in the southeast.  Now, they have begun to move into the sprintcar and modified classes as well and the interest in CT525's is moving rapidly into the midwest.  You also commented that they cost more than the racesaver and that is true in some cases but, you also mentioned that there are $20,000 Racesavers out there.  The cost of a CT525 for a sprintcar tops out at $15,950 and for that money you get a complete plug and play engine from air cleaner to oil pan.  The only other parts that are needed to go racing is a radiator and hoses.  The CT525 will most likley last at least 100 nights with only normal maintainence, no rebuilds!!!  Granted, there can be failures, like with any other engine, but inthe case of the CT525, that most likley will be self inflected by the Owners/drivers.  In the end, I am not saying what you have going on at Eagle is wrong, it is working for you and your drivers but, the Racesavers were new too, when you started your program and the CT525's were not yet available for use in Sprintcars.  What I am saying is, I wiould encourage promoters, track owners, car owners and drivers who are looking to start a cost effective sprintcar program to take a look at the use of engines that are the future, not the past.  And, I encourage those to contact the tech guys at the Knoxville Raceway for their input.  And as far as facts go, I beleive that 15 of the 22 drivers in the 305 class at Knoxville were running the CT525.  Eight out of the top 10 in points were running a CT525 and the Champion in 2017 ran a CT525.  Knowing how hard a big half mile can be on engines, I would say that, that speakes in volumes about the value, quality and dependabilty of the CT525 . . . 



racefanigan
November 22, 2017 at 10:33:59 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 230
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This message was edited on November 22, 2017 at 10:37:38 AM by racefanigan

The problem with starting a class such as the CT525, is you need to have someone willing to buy 10-15 of them and loan them out to teams, otherwise people probably will not buy them honestly. I don't know how many people actually have them at knoxville, but I'm guessing it definitely wasn't half the field. People will always go for a more "open style" engine because they can do some different things with it, and whether it gives them an advantage or not, people will always think that what they did helps them, and thats all they need to know. I say "open style" because the racesavers are sealed, but they arent completely spec, you can run different rods, pistons, etc.

Look at the crate sprint car class at husets a few years back and see how that worked out. I think letting these motors run with an already established class would be okay, I just dont think they will fare well as their own entity unless someone is willing to invest the capital to buy 10-15 of them to get guys started on them.

I'm sorry, If im going to spend $15,950 on a motor, im going to buy a Racesaver, so I can say " I want Mahle pistons and lighter rods and a Dart block." Even though I know I might not gain anything from it, at least in my head I think I do. Thats a lot in racing anymore. A great driver once told me "You can take the worst car and win if you think you can win, and you can take the best car and finish 5th because you dont think you can win."




Bill W
MyWebsite
November 22, 2017 at 12:04:10 PM
Joined: 11/23/2004
Posts: 5142
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Reply to:
Posted By: racefanigan on November 22 2017 at 10:33:59 AM

The problem with starting a class such as the CT525, is you need to have someone willing to buy 10-15 of them and loan them out to teams, otherwise people probably will not buy them honestly. I don't know how many people actually have them at knoxville, but I'm guessing it definitely wasn't half the field. People will always go for a more "open style" engine because they can do some different things with it, and whether it gives them an advantage or not, people will always think that what they did helps them, and thats all they need to know. I say "open style" because the racesavers are sealed, but they arent completely spec, you can run different rods, pistons, etc.

Look at the crate sprint car class at husets a few years back and see how that worked out. I think letting these motors run with an already established class would be okay, I just dont think they will fare well as their own entity unless someone is willing to invest the capital to buy 10-15 of them to get guys started on them.

I'm sorry, If im going to spend $15,950 on a motor, im going to buy a Racesaver, so I can say " I want Mahle pistons and lighter rods and a Dart block." Even though I know I might not gain anything from it, at least in my head I think I do. Thats a lot in racing anymore. A great driver once told me "You can take the worst car and win if you think you can win, and you can take the best car and finish 5th because you dont think you can win."



Actually, more than half in the Knoxville standings were using Pace Evolution CT525's and four out of the top five, including the champion.


If this post isn't results, stories or something c
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racefanigan
November 22, 2017 at 01:05:41 PM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 230
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This message was edited on November 22, 2017 at 01:10:19 PM by racefanigan
Reply to:
Posted By: Bill W on November 22 2017 at 12:04:10 PM

Actually, more than half in the Knoxville standings were using Pace Evolution CT525's and four out of the top five, including the champion.



I noticed that, I had to look after I posted, I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong!

Aanother question, I was reading that this engeine can be restricted down to 475 HP and up to 600 HP, If this thing can be restricted down to racesaver levels, I could see more people buying them to compete at those events, (even though I dont think the race saver rules will ever allow that).

Ill still stand by my statement, for almost $16,000, I'd rather build a motor that I have some say as to what goes in it. you can build a hell of a racesaver motor for $16,000, granted thats not all out custom, which can get up to around $22k, per a quote I got from one of the biggest racesaver builders out there. But, once you get past the $15,000 mark, the only thing youre gaining out of the engine is quality, not much power difference.

at $16,000 on a racesaver, you will have a racesaver head specific injection, the light pistons and rods, custom ground cam, all that good stuff.

Im not saying that the CT525 is a bad idea, I think it could really be a good thing as an entry level engine. but I still feel like someone is going to have to come forward with the capital to buy 15 of them to lease out to really get people excited about them.

Again, I just remember the sealed engine class at husets. 5 people bought the motors hoping it was going to be the next best thing for sprint car racing. Within the year interest dwindled, and they were sitting on $8,000-$10,000 paper weights that they couldn't get rid of.

I know of one that got sold, it was sold for 20% of what they bought it for.

Hopefully it will be able to prove itself and get going strong!



Wesmar
November 22, 2017 at 01:16:26 PM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 626
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Interesting conversation going on. 




MoOpenwheel
November 22, 2017 at 01:27:19 PM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 637
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My biggest fear in this whole thing is LOS overextending itself by trying to run two nights a week.  There are only so many fans to go around.  Will they come both nights or will they be split now?  Will the 360 car count suffer because some decide to swap to 305s?  Will the track surface suffer on Sat?  It'll basically take an all nighter every Fri night to get it back to proper shape to provide good racing Sat.  Will they be able to find enough help to run things smoothly both nights.  I doubt some of them will want to work both nights.  

I've always felt LOS could become the 360 capital of the midwest.  Its a great facility that can produce awesome racing with good track prep.  I was hoping they would put effort into improving and growing the Sat night show.  Especially before extending to multiple nights.  The only way the Sat night 360 show will grow is improved payout.  I have doubts of that happening with trying to run two nights.  I hope I'm wrong.

I thought they did a good job their first year.  About all you can say is good luck.  I hope it all works out and the place continues to grow.  



racefanigan
November 22, 2017 at 01:28:54 PM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 230
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Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on November 22 2017 at 01:16:26 PM

Interesting conversation going on. 



Kelly, I'd love to hear any information or opinions you might have on the topic. I'm a racer, and you know racers, were hard headed. I really try to keep an open mind when it comes to new technology, and I usually give credit where credit is due. What are your thoughts on Racesaver vs CT525?

My opinion is just my opinion. I will never try to sway anyone from theirs as they are entitled, thats not what I'm trying to do on here.



Eagle Pit Shack Guy
MyWebsite
November 22, 2017 at 01:29:08 PM
Joined: 02/11/2005
Posts: 1457
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This message was edited on November 22, 2017 at 02:01:03 PM by Eagle Pit Shack Guy
Reply to:
Posted By: CSI on November 22 2017 at 09:43:53 AM

Hey Eagle Pit Shack Guy . . . I understand that you want to support an engine that has worked well at your track but, to use the term "time bomb" and preposterous about the CT525"s is a bit false.  The CT525's have been around much longer than you must know and have proven their value and durability in Late Models for several years, in the southeast.  Now, they have begun to move into the sprintcar and modified classes as well and the interest in CT525's is moving rapidly into the midwest.  You also commented that they cost more than the racesaver and that is true in some cases but, you also mentioned that there are $20,000 Racesavers out there.  The cost of a CT525 for a sprintcar tops out at $15,950 and for that money you get a complete plug and play engine from air cleaner to oil pan.  The only other parts that are needed to go racing is a radiator and hoses.  The CT525 will most likley last at least 100 nights with only normal maintainence, no rebuilds!!!  Granted, there can be failures, like with any other engine, but inthe case of the CT525, that most likley will be self inflected by the Owners/drivers.  In the end, I am not saying what you have going on at Eagle is wrong, it is working for you and your drivers but, the Racesavers were new too, when you started your program and the CT525's were not yet available for use in Sprintcars.  What I am saying is, I wiould encourage promoters, track owners, car owners and drivers who are looking to start a cost effective sprintcar program to take a look at the use of engines that are the future, not the past.  And, I encourage those to contact the tech guys at the Knoxville Raceway for their input.  And as far as facts go, I beleive that 15 of the 22 drivers in the 305 class at Knoxville were running the CT525.  Eight out of the top 10 in points were running a CT525 and the Champion in 2017 ran a CT525.  Knowing how hard a big half mile can be on engines, I would say that, that speakes in volumes about the value, quality and dependabilty of the CT525 . . . 



I'm only going by what I heard, which was the fact that 2 of the first CT525's at Knoxville blew up. If that is incorrect, I apologize.

My point was that if this is the first season for them in sprints, and to say that they are more reliable than a Racesaver is blatantly false!! You yourself said they are just recently available in the sprints, but Racesaver engines have been around since 1997 when the series was started. All of them were used in sprint cars.

Last year there were 732 registered Racesaver IMCA drivers, and they ran at 91 different tracks if my calculations are correct. In addition, there were 18 regional series competing at various tracks.

Just saying.


I am lucky enough to work at one of the best tracks 
anywhere.


ACRE
MyWebsite
November 22, 2017 at 01:40:03 PM
Joined: 03/12/2013
Posts: 7
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By going crate, no matter which option you settle on you will severly limit where your drivers can compete. Racesaver is a nation wide sanctioning body spanning from the west cost to the east coast and most parts in between. With crate engines you will be committing your drivers to only race at your track, or Knoxville, and will lose any chance of pulling any cars from any of the surrounding areas, or states which have Racesaver sanctioned tracks. There is one other track going racesaver in Missouri already, Kansas has a strong racesaver following, all throughout Nebraska there is a firm field of cars, Oklahoma is seening a huge growth of 305's, they have been competing in Iowa, theres a huge field of racesavers in Texas, and they are raced at several tracks in Arkansas, Indiana, and Louisiana. Starting a class like this in an area which doesn't already have a field why not go with uniform rules and have an opportunity to pick up a few drivers from other areas.

 Another thing you should consider is engine builder support at your racetrack. If you decide to release a strictly crate engine class you run the possibility of losing the sponsorship support to both your racing facility, and to your drivers from the small time engine shops and builders. Most engine builders aren't the bad guys people make them out to be. The most expensive racesaver I've personally been around cost what it did because of the parts the customer specifically specified, not what the engine builder felt it needed. I know for a fact the engine which currently holds the track record at Eagle Raceway had 25 nights on it, with a 2 3/16 hilborn box style injection, sold for less than $10,000 in the offseason, and raced another 20 nights the next season without a freshen.



Wesmar
November 22, 2017 at 05:56:31 PM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 626
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This message was edited on November 22, 2017 at 05:58:08 PM by Wesmar
Reply to:
Posted By: racefanigan on November 22 2017 at 01:28:54 PM

Kelly, I'd love to hear any information or opinions you might have on the topic. I'm a racer, and you know racers, were hard headed. I really try to keep an open mind when it comes to new technology, and I usually give credit where credit is due. What are your thoughts on Racesaver vs CT525?

My opinion is just my opinion. I will never try to sway anyone from theirs as they are entitled, thats not what I'm trying to do on here.



  To be honest I don't know much about the CT525 crate engine other than what I have read or seen on various forums so therefore I don't feel I can accurately give my opinion on them.

  We have rebuilt a couple Racesaver 305's and built one new one.  Honestly they (305's) aren't my cup of tea BUT they seem to be for quite a few people.  From what I have seen they appeared to have saved racing in some areas and even brought some racer's back to the sport that got out.  I say that's a good thing for racing in general.

  In the end you have two choices with the 305, the CT525 and the Racesaver.  On one hand it appears the CT525 might be a better option for the guy/gal that is new to the sport and doesn't know much about the engines and on the other hand the do-it-yourself racer can still build their own engine if they'd like to.

  Now the Knoxville/Burlington 305's is a whole different story.

  Not sure if that's what you were looking for?

 



crankshaft
November 24, 2017 at 08:56:13 AM
Joined: 07/31/2005
Posts: 14
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Reply to:
Posted By: CSI on November 21 2017 at 12:02:50 PM

Everyone has there own opinin and that is what makes the world go around but, I think you need to look no further than the program at Knoxville Raceway and their success in the 305 class (really need to change the name).  The CT525 is a great engine that will blend in with other 305 engines when starting a new class.  While the CT525 will cost a bit more, it's life will long out live the RaceSaver and open 305 engines.  Verses the 602 and 604 engines, which also have great potential, the CT525 engines are new technology engines and are built on platforms that are the futrure of engines, not the past.  I highly suggest any tracks looking at a new sprintcar class, outside of 410's or 360's, that they contact the guys at the Knoxville Raceway for their input on the success and the pluses they have in adding the use of the CT525 engine.  Knoixville Raceway - (641) 842-5431.



The problem with the CT525 is you are subject to only one individual person being able to freshen the engines.  As the amount of people using them goes up the turn around time will take longer.  How do you know evryone is getting the same thing?  They already admitted to changing pistons in a couple of them for "durabilty" reasons.  Did all users of the CT525 know of this happening?  How about the fact that it could have changed the outcome of the champion for the 2017 season?  Would an open 305 have won the championship if ALL the engines had the same original pistons in them?  

Also the price is already increasing due to the piston upgrade.  Anyone want to take bets the price will increase?  Whats next a dry sump?  

The only reson the 305 open motor got out of hand is because it wasnt teched like it should have been.  Really in all reality the Racesaver is the only cost effective option out there.  Problem is at 450 hp its a little weak for a big 1/2 mile.

By mandating the CT525 for 2019 all that they did was eliminate all the open 305's and sent all the freshen/repair business to one person and took away from the local machine shops and engine builders.

All I can say is there must be some behind he scenes money exchanging to mandate only running the CT525,  Why would you eliminate the 305 option if the racing has been that close all year?  You are reducing car counts.

 

 




crankshaft
November 24, 2017 at 09:07:56 AM
Joined: 07/31/2005
Posts: 14
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Reply to:
Posted By: Sprint 5 on September 11 2017 at 09:06:29 PM

Lake Ozark Speedway Sprint Fans and Drivers:

There will be a Meeting Saturday September 16th at 5:00 PM to discuss a possible starter class for young sprint car drivers.

We will be discussing chassis and engine types to get input from the area to see if we can get enough participation to try a new class next season. We will meet at the race track in front of the concessions.

If you know of anyone who has interest in this class please spread the word.

Jerry Jenkins, Chuck Hines and Tim Trimble will be listening to your input to see if this makes sense to pursue next year. 

LOS Staff



I would suggest looking into the Burlington/Knoxville style rules.  With speacials you could possibly increase car counts with guys being able to run a wide range of used 305 engines.  Its hard for people to spend an initial 17,000 to start racing with the CT525.  If not then the Racesaver would be a great option also.  on a 1/4 to 3/8 mile track that is slick it will provide great racing.   Just remember you have local machine shops and engine builders who are cut out with the crate engines.  And people will still try to cheat with a crate.





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