Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

If they figure the angle with flat tires the angle will increase when there is more air.

Running bleeders and coming in with less air in the rear would lower the wing angle.

The reason the sings are run at such an angle now is they don't work worth a shit any more because the down force has been taken out of them. Years ago when doty was running you didn't need all that wing angle because the wings were wings, not flat pieces of plywood with no down force.

Nailed it. It doesn't matter what angle you run the wings at, if they're flat, dirty air will continue to a be a huge factor in the racing. Especially on the larger tracks. I can't for the life of me figure out why in the hell they're still using them. The only time I ever heard about dirty air before the flat wings was during a NASCRAP race. Every driver or crew member I've ever talked to 100% agrees with me on this.

If they figure the angle with flat tires the angle will increase when there is more air.

Running bleeders and coming in with less air in the rear would lower the wing angle.

The reason the sings are run at such an angle now is they don't work worth a shit any more because the down force has been taken out of them. Years ago when doty was running you didn't need all that wing angle because the wings were wings, not flat pieces of plywood with no down force.

The drivers are saying they need more downforce, that they can't turn behind someone. Are you not listening???  Jeff Swindell hasn't raced a 410 in 15 years. 

If wing angles are measured post race at the scales with an inclinometer...will teams have to stop using bleeders at the risk the car will settle at an illegal post race reading?

As I have said for years it's the side boards that are the problem and the flat wings made it worse. Why do we have 5 foot (60 inches) by 5 foot (60 inches) center foil section and 72 inch side boards. Cut a foot off make then 60 inches. Remove wicker bill. This will get rid of the left side of the wing air packing.

WoO rule 15.8 wings

15.8.1 Top Wing Center Foil A.) Center Foil maximum size of 25 square feet with a maximum width and length of 60 inches. Center Foil must be square or rectangular in shape with all 4 corners set at 90° angles with no variance allowed. Center foil top is to be flat from front to back and side to side. The center foil top must start being flat within 6” from the center foil’s front leading edge.

15.8.3 Side Board Panels TOP A.) The Top wing side board’s maximum size will be 72 inches long and 30 inches tall. The top 2/3’s of each top wing side panel shall consist of only 2 corners. Each corner shall be set at a 90° angle with no variance. This portion of the side panel’s leading edge may not be behind the center foils leading edge.

When the wings first started they were for forward bite not rudder effect.

Looking at the two pictures in this thread what do you see is the bigest differnce in the cars. Hint look at the left side rails. And back of the wing.

Another expert , it's 60" x 60" bud. 

The drivers are saying they need more downforce, that they can't turn behind someone. Are you not listening???  Jeff Swindell hasn't raced a 410 in 15 years. 

The drivers are saying they need more downforce, that they can't turn behind someone. Are you not listening???  Jeff Swindell hasn't raced a 410 in 15 years. 

Every driver I know says the racing usually sucks until the track slows down. There has been alot of people coming from deep in the pack on the narrow right rear tire once the track slows down a couple of seconds. Track slowing down a couple of seconds is the same thing as unhooking the cars. Unhooking the cars was and is the key for both better racing and cost containment. It is time to take some of the drive out of the left rear tire and lower the wings to kill drag. To reduce engine expense and facilitate better racing when the track is wet or rough.

Dewease thinks the problem is easily solved. "The late models went through this years ago," Dewease said. "They had a big right rear and had all these wedges to put in the car, and it was too easy to go fast. We have the same problem. They went to a narrow tire and unhooked the cars and now, they have to race."

"That's what we need to do. The tires have gotten so good, that we need to go to a smaller tire." - Lance Dewease

"I didn't see a big problem when we had to put on the 16" (wide right rear tire) for the ASCS show. I think 16" is a move in the right direction, but it plain and simply is not enough. The tire companies will probably freak out on this, but I believe we need to cut the left rear width back to around 12" to help take some of the drive out of the car. Less tire, less power needed." - Jeff Swindell

Since we're dealing with facts here Mr. Herring, I'd point out that Jeff Swindell has indeed raced a 410 in the last 15 years.   He raced the #94 either last year or in 2013 at the Knoxville 410 Nats...

My bad, I attended that Nationals to. Guess I missed what race he was in. Hasn't been full time or a player in 15 years. So I don't think his opinion should matter. All I know is the more people listen to this board, the worse the racing will become. You guys are all about big money teams having an advantage. Well the more rule changes will only benefit these guys! That's what you don't understand. 

never before in modern history have so many non outlaw teams won races! Greg Wilson won from 9 at Eldora on used tires, so they can't be that bad?????  Dietrech from 9 at the Grove. Blaney from 9 at Lernerville, Mc Carl from 9 ( Nats Prelim ), TK from 14 ( NSL final ) Jacob Allen from 17 or 18 to challenging for the win at Deer Creek! Should I go on???? Oh, stewart from 14 at Kings Royal. 

The only ones that will benefit from rule changes are the big teams. testing etc 

Sprint cars aren't that complex,wheel spacing and offset,stagger,shocks and bars.Any sprint car guy with a little knowledge will figure out quickly what the car wants,it aint rocket science.

My bad, I attended that Nationals to. Guess I missed what race he was in. Hasn't been full time or a player in 15 years. So I don't think his opinion should matter. All I know is the more people listen to this board, the worse the racing will become. You guys are all about big money teams having an advantage. Well the more rule changes will only benefit these guys! That's what you don't understand. 

never before in modern history have so many non outlaw teams won races! Greg Wilson won from 9 at Eldora on used tires, so they can't be that bad?????  Dietrech from 9 at the Grove. Blaney from 9 at Lernerville, Mc Carl from 9 ( Nats Prelim ), TK from 14 ( NSL final ) Jacob Allen from 17 or 18 to challenging for the win at Deer Creek! Should I go on???? Oh, stewart from 14 at Kings Royal. 

The only ones that will benefit from rule changes are the big teams. testing etc 

Horsepower costs big money so yeh, the big money teams will always have that advantage. Especially when the adjustability of the car is limited which is what the rules packages focus on today. A good team with respectable horsepower just might come up with a combination that could out race huge horsepower, given the opprtunity to make wholesale changes to the set up. But, without a more open adjustability rules package, respectable horsepower has little chance. I guess my question is this. Do we have better racing today with 900 HP than we did when we had 700HP? When we had 700HP more was allowed to be done with the car set up.

As I have said for years it's the side boards that are the problem and the flat wings made it worse. Why do we have 5 foot (60 inches) by 5 foot (60 inches) center foil section and 72 inch side boards. Cut a foot off make then 60 inches. Remove wicker bill. This will get rid of the left side of the wing air packing.

WoO rule 15.8 wings

15.8.1 Top Wing Center Foil A.) Center Foil maximum size of 25 square feet with a maximum width and length of 60 inches. Center Foil must be square or rectangular in shape with all 4 corners set at 90° angles with no variance allowed. Center foil top is to be flat from front to back and side to side. The center foil top must start being flat within 6” from the center foil’s front leading edge.

15.8.3 Side Board Panels TOP A.) The Top wing side board’s maximum size will be 72 inches long and 30 inches tall. The top 2/3’s of each top wing side panel shall consist of only 2 corners. Each corner shall be set at a 90° angle with no variance. This portion of the side panel’s leading edge may not be behind the center foils leading edge.

When the wings first started they were for forward bite not rudder effect.

Looking at the two pictures in this thread what do you see is the bigest differnce in the cars. Hint look at the left side rails. And back of the wing.

+1

reduce both wings and sideboards by 10%. 

harder tires and reduce the max height and width of both rear tires.

make the driver more important AND reduce the advantage of more HP.

Measuring wing angle on a sprint car is simple. Other racing series have a lot of aero rules: bodies, spoilers, wings, winglets, underwings, diffusers, etc. Sprint car wing angle is easily and quickly measured with a digital level when it crosses the scales. Lowering it would save thousands of dollars a year in engine expense.

+1