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DGM 7620
September 14, 2008 at 09:04:01 AM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
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Posted By: sprintcar21n on September 13 2008 at 07:49:54 PM

Yea Grubb and old Roger Weiden both got caught running the 400's in '79 or so at Tulsa. Sad to hear about Roger. Mike Maggie was fun to watch. He would have his hands together at 12 O clock on the steering wheel and he never turned the wheel, he would yank down on it to turn the car. Never seen a picture of him out of his car. Every picture I even seen always had him sitting in his car (as far as track photos or winner circle) I knew Fred had his pilot license but I have no idea when he got them. I thought Dave has his too? I thought everyone who lived out in western Kansas and drove a super had to have their pilots license??? LOL Now I dont think Jon Johnson didnt cause he would always comment about the drive he was making every week when he was running Tulsa back in the early 80's.



I didn't know RW very well but Dave I did and every now and then see him at some races, as far as Hembree goes the story I was told by Dave and Fred standing there happened before he had a lic.

Dave had his lic. and thought Fred had his until they got in plane and Fred started warming her up.I think the jest was that Dave did most of the flying after Fred taxied out to the runway(or tried) apprently Fred had only been in this plane a couple of times with the guy who owned and flew it, Fred hadn't even had a lesson at that time.

On response to your email: David Grace



DGM 7620
September 14, 2008 at 10:52:53 AM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
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Posted By: dirtbag on September 13 2008 at 11:02:52 PM

Hey JD,

Agreed, why do we now have :

Fast cars starting in the front of their heat

30 minute plus intermissions

Cone starts

Five,six, seven, classes of cars for a weekly show

 

And what I wouldn't't give to see :

Bacon,Grandstaff, Peters,Taft at Dewey on a Friday night with the track heavy

Larry Phillips, Tommy Laster, & Ferris Collier going at it at Thunderbird

Shane Carson at Dewey in his six cylinder running against the supers

A 50 lap NCRA A feature at Hutch on a Sunday afternoon(talk about separating the men from the boys)

 



Changing a motor in the infield at Hutch with it at a 100+ will also seperate the boys to.

How bout throwing in Cadwell, Drake & Randolph with those other 3 at T-Bird or Hutch.

Watching Wahoo drive the old mans car at OKC, it was win it or wear it.

In '75 standing in turn 1 at OKC seeing Aaron Madden back it in the fence and catch on fire, being the first one there and realizing he couldn't undo his seatbelts.

Seeing Aaron end his career on the front stretch wall at the Big Tulsa Track.There are only so many hits your body can take and to come back after so many is a testament to the type of drivers of that age.

That big track was a love hate relationship alot of good guys were killed or hurt bad there but MP and I won a few races there in the Hill&Kearney #10 the old man and Benny won some races there before Benny got hurt and he won a few there with Leep.

Watching Larry Ring go over the 3rd turn wall two weeks in a row and land in that pit stands right inside the pit gate(lot of old fat pit man were faster then they thought)

Watching OPP win in Wilson's #25 for the first time at Tulsa in his comeback.(Very Priceless). Having breakfest with Jan and his wife (I don't remember her name) on the Tuesday following his Tulsa win they were staying in OKC at a Holiday Inn on 39th street, he was so very happy about the win!!

Seeing Darrell Brazell knock over that big Jeep going down the back stretch at Tulsa during Hot Laps.

Seeing my good friend Mike Stewart in a ball of fire leap out right before it hit that Corvette parked in the infield.

Watching Ray Cates smoke a loaded cigarette and the expression on his face when it blew up, I thought he would kill Jack Davis(no relation to Phil)

Ah Phil god rest his sole, there was a guy who ran his pit area, between him and that big oak tree cop that worked there they kept everything pretty organized and under control.

 



miketx
September 14, 2008 at 12:17:51 PM
Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 50
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This message was edited on September 14, 2008 at 12:21:38 PM by miketx
Reply to:
Posted By: sprintcar21n on September 13 2008 at 07:49:54 PM

Yea Grubb and old Roger Weiden both got caught running the 400's in '79 or so at Tulsa. Sad to hear about Roger. Mike Maggie was fun to watch. He would have his hands together at 12 O clock on the steering wheel and he never turned the wheel, he would yank down on it to turn the car. Never seen a picture of him out of his car. Every picture I even seen always had him sitting in his car (as far as track photos or winner circle) I knew Fred had his pilot license but I have no idea when he got them. I thought Dave has his too? I thought everyone who lived out in western Kansas and drove a super had to have their pilots license??? LOL Now I dont think Jon Johnson didnt cause he would always comment about the drive he was making every week when he was running Tulsa back in the early 80's.



There's a picture of Mike McGee standing beside his car on page 99 of Bob May's "High Plains Thunder", along with his dad. Good looking car. They say it won best engineered in 1974. Weird thing is that all the years I knew him, I never knew he was interested in racing, and I knew him from the first grade on until I moved to Houston after 9th grade.

I've mentioned Bob May's books a couple of times on the forum, and I still recommend to you all, if you don't have this book, buy it. It's a great history book. Mr. Brewer is mentioned 9 times in the index, and and Harold Leep is mentioned 22 times , just for examples.

One more thing to add to the list...really good looking trophy girls. Remember in Tulsa the trophy girls came from a modeling studio?

m



sprintcar21n
MyWebsite
September 14, 2008 at 07:58:22 PM
Joined: 08/17/2005
Posts: 50
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I don't know about the trophy girls at Tulsa Speedway as my ex-wife was one of them. I didn't really know Mike except he worked over at Murphy Switch and he smoked those stinky cigars..LOL. The Mike Stewart fire was one of those weird deals for me, as the lap before when he came out of 4 I turned to my brother and pointed at the rear-end of his car telling him something broke. The next lap we found out what it was. He did his best to ride that thing out and keep it away from the infield and that Vette, but the Vette got hit. The car was going pretty slow by the time it hit it. Mike was always one of my brothers and mine favorite guys. We use to go over to his store just to buy some part we could get over in Sand Springs just to talk racing with him. He always had time to tell some story or just listen to ours. As far as Larry Ring I remember him going over the backstretch wall and through the fence in 78 or 79 and the wrecker couldn't hardly make it over to where he was cause of that stupid area between the track and the fence was blocked. The day Darrell Brazell having his wreck is still to this day one of the darkest days in Tulsa Speedway history to me. Darrell had just got the OFIXCO sponsorship and was in-line for a great run at Tulsa and the NCRA, but how they allowed that guy (we wont mention any names) to drive across the track when he did is still unreal to me. I had seen him do it 1 million times before just like everyone else had but never understood why he couldn't have waited just 30 seconds. Those where not the best of times at Tulsa Speedway as far as drivers getting hurt or worse. It's kinda weird how somethings like that just sticks in your mind forever. I remember the night Junior Taft had his accident. It was another of those strange days for me. As I sat on the wall watching the street stocks run their feature Junior came up and sat down beside me. Now I didn't know him and had not really spent anytime talking to him in the past but he comes and sits down beside me and starts asking about who's winning etc etc. We sat there for maybe 5 minutes just shooting the crap and he got up to go and told me to take it easy. I thought he seemed like a nice guy. Fast forward a few hours and there he is running down the back stretch behind Jim Carpenter and George Armstrong. Jim's car breaks down at full speed, George rear ends him and Junior swerves to the right to miss them both but catches Georges right rear wheel and starts to flip. It was one of those flips we had all seen our whole lives, not real bad, but Junior never made it out. I was standing along the pit fence with Chuck Ezkorn, the guy who owned Tony Armstrongs car, and I just had this feeling come over me that I could not describe even to this day, but I knew Junior was gone. Chuck said something to me and I remember telling him somethings wrong with Junior, and as the ambulance drove past us leaving the pits I knew I was right. Those where tough time for the Tulsa Speedway. We lost Gene Daniels that year, Court Grandstaff broke his neck in a wreck that never seem to end and George Armstrong broke both of his arms in one wreck then had another and broke his back. I think that was also the year we lost Tommy Thomas in a sprintcar wreck at Sedalia.


The older I get the faster I use to be

jdsprint71
September 15, 2008 at 12:30:31 PM
Joined: 05/02/2005
Posts: 1336
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Posted By: DGM 7620 on September 14 2008 at 10:52:53 AM

Changing a motor in the infield at Hutch with it at a 100+ will also seperate the boys to.

How bout throwing in Cadwell, Drake & Randolph with those other 3 at T-Bird or Hutch.

Watching Wahoo drive the old mans car at OKC, it was win it or wear it.

In '75 standing in turn 1 at OKC seeing Aaron Madden back it in the fence and catch on fire, being the first one there and realizing he couldn't undo his seatbelts.

Seeing Aaron end his career on the front stretch wall at the Big Tulsa Track.There are only so many hits your body can take and to come back after so many is a testament to the type of drivers of that age.

That big track was a love hate relationship alot of good guys were killed or hurt bad there but MP and I won a few races there in the Hill&Kearney #10 the old man and Benny won some races there before Benny got hurt and he won a few there with Leep.

Watching Larry Ring go over the 3rd turn wall two weeks in a row and land in that pit stands right inside the pit gate(lot of old fat pit man were faster then they thought)

Watching OPP win in Wilson's #25 for the first time at Tulsa in his comeback.(Very Priceless). Having breakfest with Jan and his wife (I don't remember her name) on the Tuesday following his Tulsa win they were staying in OKC at a Holiday Inn on 39th street, he was so very happy about the win!!

Seeing Darrell Brazell knock over that big Jeep going down the back stretch at Tulsa during Hot Laps.

Seeing my good friend Mike Stewart in a ball of fire leap out right before it hit that Corvette parked in the infield.

Watching Ray Cates smoke a loaded cigarette and the expression on his face when it blew up, I thought he would kill Jack Davis(no relation to Phil)

Ah Phil god rest his sole, there was a guy who ran his pit area, between him and that big oak tree cop that worked there they kept everything pretty organized and under control.

 



David,

 

Seems changing anything at Hutch in 100+ degrees would seperate the sweatin fat boys like me and the non sweaters.LOL

Watchin Bob Ewell come to the Tulsa Fairgrounds and run and watch people around me place bets on what lap the motor would let go, seemed he could'nt catch a break then.

Seeing the fleet of Ofixico cars at the track and thinkin Lloyd K.Stephens must be the richest guy in Okla.

Wonderin what happened to the old 5 gal. Army cans that would line the open trailer which carried the fuel for the race car, never thought a second about anyone hitting you while going down the highway but if they did it would have been a ball of fire goin down the highway.

Spending a week down in Dallas, Tx. when I was 14 yrs. old with Bob Ewell and getting a upclose look at weeks preperation for Friday at the Devil's Bowl and Sat. at some track in Okla. and then usually an NCRA on Sunday and firing the car off on Thursday night and running it up the street in Locust Grove addition in SE Dallas to see if everything was good to go and the cops showing up to give yet another warning and Ewell putting the warning tickets in a box in the shop and the box was dam near full. LOL

Watching Charlie Lupi (former Lawton Flagman) come down out of the flagstand and go out on the track and on more than one occassion to stop a race and give the front row starters a little advice/consultation on how and where to start the race, the advice/consultation always seemed to work, What happened to those type flagman who ran the show on the track, PERIOD!!. which does not happen now.

One other thing you mentioned about Roger who rode his bike to the track on Fridays , always remembered he did not care for Mike P.and would always say down in front of the grandstands that he had put the hex on Mike for the night, but did'nt he like Steve Gastineau to a lot., seems like I always heard him saying Steve is the fastest thing out there back in the 80's

Some really good stuff in this thread.



DGM 7620
September 15, 2008 at 06:36:53 PM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
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Reply to:
Posted By: jdsprint71 on September 15 2008 at 12:30:31 PM

David,

 

Seems changing anything at Hutch in 100+ degrees would seperate the sweatin fat boys like me and the non sweaters.LOL

Watchin Bob Ewell come to the Tulsa Fairgrounds and run and watch people around me place bets on what lap the motor would let go, seemed he could'nt catch a break then.

Seeing the fleet of Ofixico cars at the track and thinkin Lloyd K.Stephens must be the richest guy in Okla.

Wonderin what happened to the old 5 gal. Army cans that would line the open trailer which carried the fuel for the race car, never thought a second about anyone hitting you while going down the highway but if they did it would have been a ball of fire goin down the highway.

Spending a week down in Dallas, Tx. when I was 14 yrs. old with Bob Ewell and getting a upclose look at weeks preperation for Friday at the Devil's Bowl and Sat. at some track in Okla. and then usually an NCRA on Sunday and firing the car off on Thursday night and running it up the street in Locust Grove addition in SE Dallas to see if everything was good to go and the cops showing up to give yet another warning and Ewell putting the warning tickets in a box in the shop and the box was dam near full. LOL

Watching Charlie Lupi (former Lawton Flagman) come down out of the flagstand and go out on the track and on more than one occassion to stop a race and give the front row starters a little advice/consultation on how and where to start the race, the advice/consultation always seemed to work, What happened to those type flagman who ran the show on the track, PERIOD!!. which does not happen now.

One other thing you mentioned about Roger who rode his bike to the track on Fridays , always remembered he did not care for Mike P.and would always say down in front of the grandstands that he had put the hex on Mike for the night, but did'nt he like Steve Gastineau to a lot., seems like I always heard him saying Steve is the fastest thing out there back in the 80's

Some really good stuff in this thread.



JD,

At Comet go-kart track over on Scott st & I-40 I saw Lupi take the ride of his life he was pretty good size back then, Lyndon, Jack Davis, Charles Jarvis & myself were racing and Jack & Lyndon dumped Lupi into the tires at the end of straight away he drove it straight in and the tires were banded together and didn't give the back went up in the air about 2 feet and Jarvis ran under him and had a cast on his left foot from prevoius racing accident, that cast blew up in about a hundred pieces. Lupi nutsacked himself going over the steering wheel and we had to take Charles back to hospital to get new cast.

I tell you I considered OFIXCO to be the ones to beat, I to thought Lloyd K. was one of the richest guys but the old man kept telling me we could beat them. It took a lot of hard work not just by us but alot of other guys and together we just finally wore them down.

In the Hill&Kearney days which was before OFIXCO was so big you had to beat 15-16 guys we worked our ass off we kept the car over at B&T's for a while did alot of chassis work trying different things, Boyd was doing the motors and while they were fast they broke alot, the old man finally came around and started working with me on the motors and things got better after awhile.

I can remember MP and I at Tulsa in Hill & Kearney #10 when we broke our last motor in heat no pay day, Larry & Bub were straped pretty tight on money also so MP and I split the last $50.00 we had between us to make it to the next Saturday, I went home and took motor apart and went down to the old mans begging for help, well he give us a little help on parts and what to do and we made it back the next Saturday and won the A-FEA paid $1000.00 if I remember right. We were rich as kings.

Later on GDYR came up with some new tires and we put them on and really started going faster that MP could just get against the wall and drive right on by, sometimes be 4-5 wide in turns well of course got to have more power to pull those better tires so we had finally got our Boyd motor back and put it in and it was a hoss, we won 1st night with it in but it still wasn't running right so we put our old faithful in and the old man mixed us up some fuel to perk it up but he forgot to tell me about JETS & TIMING, well it made 7 hot laps and the pistons were all in the pan, we had that big ol syrup bucket for a dry sump tank and I was draining the oil out and there was as much aluminum in the oil as there was oil, the old man had just walked in the pit gate and there I was with that drain pan and he says did you richen it up and back the timing down, he started laughing as MP was telling him how fast it was for 7 laps Hence 1st fuel lesson it involved more then just pouring it in the tank!!!!!

There were alot of good rivalries Firestone (Kalb 1 of the great guys in racing) GDYR (CM also some of the best guys in racing) Marsh (the Humpers) Engine builders abounded Carbone, Moritz, Cox, Boyd,Cowett,Apple,Richardson,Schiender,Allard,Wilson just to name a few, Chassis Nance,Edmunds,Walker,Parsons, Howerton and a few others. Back then you just did more of the actual building yourself on chassis and motors. Then you pretty well built your own trailer and just used your old PU to tow it with.

I can remember Evertt Issac picking up his Parson car at Dale P's with a Chrysler Imperial as a tow vehicle, remember DP using his '57 chevy to tow from Whicita to OKC. Wonder what they would think now if you pulled in with your Imperial and single axle open trailer and kicked everybodys butt!!

Remember building my 2nd motor for the Purple and Silver #01 that Lyndon drove and dropping a rev kit spring down the oil drain back hole and pulling the pan and starter back off to get it out and then Jack Davis saying you can't do that again in a 100 years and about 30 sec's later it happened again (didn't put pan back on till I got the heads on after that one)

Remember very vivid getting burned by scalding water working on Jarvis's old # 20 modified when it blew a head gasket and filled a cylinder up which sphewed out on me when I pulled the plugs out, I had on a white T-shrit and when I jerked it the hide came with it, they got me on a hood of a truck and Glen Hunter poured a quart of 50 wt all over me before the ambulance got there, well when I got over to St Anthonys they stripped me and then took a fire hose and washed me down a scrubbed the hide off, seems the Dr. wasn't very happy with Glens doctoring but they bandaged me up and I was back at track in time to see A-FEA.(don't know if I thanked Glen for that)

Roger did like Steve and Shane and about anybody that wasn't named MP. Old Roger use to come by the shop and get the latest gossip then beline it to Mike Baccus's shop and on to some body else shop, Ray Crawford told me one time that Roger would come by the Fire Station and he would give him the gossip then Roger would haul ass over to OFIXCO and tell them what Ray said then he would haul ass back to the Fire Station to tell Ray what they said, I wish I had a dollar for every mile Roger ever rode on a bike I believe I could retire. One thing for sure there haven't been many fans more devoted then him!!!

 

 

 



jdsprint71
September 16, 2008 at 09:46:39 AM
Joined: 05/02/2005
Posts: 1336
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David, Lupi was just one tough hombre in my book, heck when he ran Faxon Speedway down by Lawton, Ok. in the 80's (mini sprints) , he was a rather physical type promoter, never let a competitor get out of hand at his race track whether he was promoting it or flagging it.

Left a red shop rag in the intake one time and did not see it or pay enough attention and in a hurry and put the carb on and fired up the motor and it just sounded funny and would not clean up and run right and then I remember looking down and seeing pieces of red rag shooting out the header , had to pull intake and both heads and clean pieces of red rag and lint out between valves and for about 2 hrs. , was not fun and well you learn lessons. Still have a piece of that red rag hanging on the garage wall to remind me of that day and tell myself not to hurry.

I can only imagine what everyone would think if you pulled in towing a car today with a passenger car and a single axle trailer and kicked their butts, with this sport today of monkey see monkey do , hell next week all of them might have the same tow rig. Like you have stated no idividuality today.

I remember standing in line at Caney Valley Speedway several years back was the last ASCS show they had there and Wayne Johnson won the deal driving the 44 car out of Texas and they pulled it in on a 16 ft. Utility Trailer and won the thing and I remeber they were leaving and driving by as they had collected there loot and were outta there and Jim Bailey said we must be doing it all wrong , we got these 53' haulers and yet the guy with the only small open trailer comes in and wins the thing. So it can be done without the Big Hauler.

Those motor builders you mentioned was that Cecil Apple , was that his name?

I remember seeing back in the 70's in Lawton those 2 brand new Nance 4 Bar cars for Tony Layton and Joe Moore Jr. which Bill Layton owned and they were the Lawton Brace and Limb Racing Team. I remember Layton saying to several of us that these were store bought cars and they had high expectations to win and well did not exactly go that way as back then as J.L. Nash and A.J. Little and Jerry Douglas and Gilbert Hutson were there along with a host of other great drivers and it was tough to win then at Lawton and I guess it shows as it still does today that it takes all 3 ingredients for Wins and Champioships , good cars, good motors and a great driver.

I always wondered back in the 70's about the tire guys Goodyear and Firestone , did you ever notice that Jerry Maxwell and John Kalb were both similar , both never talked much and not much on words , neither were very vocal , both just seem to just go about the business at the track kind of quiet and heck come to think of it Gary Aikman fits in that mold to , not much of a talker and a person of few words , just found that interesting.

How much longer do you think Mike P. will drive , the guy has not lost a step if you ask me ,can still win races on any night and still can take a shot , especially the one he took earlier this season at OKC , head on into the front stretch wall and gets out and walks away from it .



DGM 7620
September 16, 2008 at 01:12:20 PM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
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Reply to:
Posted By: jdsprint71 on September 16 2008 at 09:46:39 AM

David, Lupi was just one tough hombre in my book, heck when he ran Faxon Speedway down by Lawton, Ok. in the 80's (mini sprints) , he was a rather physical type promoter, never let a competitor get out of hand at his race track whether he was promoting it or flagging it.

Left a red shop rag in the intake one time and did not see it or pay enough attention and in a hurry and put the carb on and fired up the motor and it just sounded funny and would not clean up and run right and then I remember looking down and seeing pieces of red rag shooting out the header , had to pull intake and both heads and clean pieces of red rag and lint out between valves and for about 2 hrs. , was not fun and well you learn lessons. Still have a piece of that red rag hanging on the garage wall to remind me of that day and tell myself not to hurry.

I can only imagine what everyone would think if you pulled in towing a car today with a passenger car and a single axle trailer and kicked their butts, with this sport today of monkey see monkey do , hell next week all of them might have the same tow rig. Like you have stated no idividuality today.

I remember standing in line at Caney Valley Speedway several years back was the last ASCS show they had there and Wayne Johnson won the deal driving the 44 car out of Texas and they pulled it in on a 16 ft. Utility Trailer and won the thing and I remeber they were leaving and driving by as they had collected there loot and were outta there and Jim Bailey said we must be doing it all wrong , we got these 53' haulers and yet the guy with the only small open trailer comes in and wins the thing. So it can be done without the Big Hauler.

Those motor builders you mentioned was that Cecil Apple , was that his name?

I remember seeing back in the 70's in Lawton those 2 brand new Nance 4 Bar cars for Tony Layton and Joe Moore Jr. which Bill Layton owned and they were the Lawton Brace and Limb Racing Team. I remember Layton saying to several of us that these were store bought cars and they had high expectations to win and well did not exactly go that way as back then as J.L. Nash and A.J. Little and Jerry Douglas and Gilbert Hutson were there along with a host of other great drivers and it was tough to win then at Lawton and I guess it shows as it still does today that it takes all 3 ingredients for Wins and Champioships , good cars, good motors and a great driver.

I always wondered back in the 70's about the tire guys Goodyear and Firestone , did you ever notice that Jerry Maxwell and John Kalb were both similar , both never talked much and not much on words , neither were very vocal , both just seem to just go about the business at the track kind of quiet and heck come to think of it Gary Aikman fits in that mold to , not much of a talker and a person of few words , just found that interesting.

How much longer do you think Mike P. will drive , the guy has not lost a step if you ask me ,can still win races on any night and still can take a shot , especially the one he took earlier this season at OKC , head on into the front stretch wall and gets out and walks away from it .



Cecil Apple was the name I always knew him by he built motors for the Schippert Mobile Home cars #4 & #04 and a couple others I'm not for sure but I think he helped Walt for a few years to (Walt was a pretty good motor builder himself.

You know something that made Bob,Jon Johnson,Stan,Bruner & a few others so good the could assembly a car, rebuild a rear end or build there own motors. Not many in sprint pits can do that anymore!!

Just because you have money and buy the latest car and motor and have the biggest rig does not mean your a shoe in to win, I'm going to add a couple of things to your list: #1a good crew chief & crew and # 2 This might be the most important a car owner who understands that just because he spends a dollar does not mean your going to win races or championships, you have to keep everthing in prospective and mix the right combination of these items together to even have a chance to win races then if he or she hasn't out spent themselves and as the presents to survive then they might win a championship.

I'll never forget '87 with Mr. Bill's #97 We were ahead by a little over 400pts on August the 1st and lost the championship by 20 pts or less on the last night. Believe this or not Roger played a part in that we pulled up to the pit gate and ole Roger was sitting there on his bike he says hey big Dave you know what your doing and I replied back buying a pit pass do you know what your doing and he answered back puttin the BLACK CAT IN YOUR CAR, I said Roger why would you do that and he said MP was a dirty driver and he didn't like him, well guess what happened 1st in the heat, leading the A-FEA on 16th lap by a mile and they have a red and when Mike restarted the car the starter burned up and shorted all of the wiring out and we were left sitting.

Whats your take on driver introductions I liked it seems some others did to, you just have to be organized to do it maybe rotate classes but at least the fans would get a better up close view of driver with there car.

What ever happened to Buddy Jackson #47 that ran Lawton?

What ever happened to James Skinner from Whicita Falls?

Old Tony Pressley bought that #65 from Carl Wyatt that James drove he ran it a few times at end of season and then asked if I could help him a little, so over the winter we completely revamped that car, put coil overs on front and sprint tank crowerglide clutch etc. well I had learned from the old man early that weight was important so I started drilling all of the bolts out well I put 7/16th hole in the steering arm bolts (big mistake)n so we go to the city and in A-FEA Tony comes off turn 2 hits a rut breaking bolts off of RF steering arm and turning him head on into wall, man he flipped bad really busted his ass and then it caught on fire and they powered him pretty bad with the dry chemical ex. Tony was knocked out cold got him over to Hospital and they had to suction his lungs out from inhaling that powder. He spent a couple/three days there and learned a few new life experencies. I tell ever body there is a guy who owes me one for drilling those bolts out.

This was not my last try at drilling bolts out (ask Emmett) but thats another story.



brian26
September 16, 2008 at 01:48:21 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply

James Skinner is still around. He is thinking about putting together a car for the nostalgia shows. Just waiting for the right car.




jdsprint71
September 16, 2008 at 02:47:41 PM
Joined: 05/02/2005
Posts: 1336
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: DGM 7620 on September 16 2008 at 01:12:20 PM

Cecil Apple was the name I always knew him by he built motors for the Schippert Mobile Home cars #4 & #04 and a couple others I'm not for sure but I think he helped Walt for a few years to (Walt was a pretty good motor builder himself.

You know something that made Bob,Jon Johnson,Stan,Bruner & a few others so good the could assembly a car, rebuild a rear end or build there own motors. Not many in sprint pits can do that anymore!!

Just because you have money and buy the latest car and motor and have the biggest rig does not mean your a shoe in to win, I'm going to add a couple of things to your list: #1a good crew chief & crew and # 2 This might be the most important a car owner who understands that just because he spends a dollar does not mean your going to win races or championships, you have to keep everthing in prospective and mix the right combination of these items together to even have a chance to win races then if he or she hasn't out spent themselves and as the presents to survive then they might win a championship.

I'll never forget '87 with Mr. Bill's #97 We were ahead by a little over 400pts on August the 1st and lost the championship by 20 pts or less on the last night. Believe this or not Roger played a part in that we pulled up to the pit gate and ole Roger was sitting there on his bike he says hey big Dave you know what your doing and I replied back buying a pit pass do you know what your doing and he answered back puttin the BLACK CAT IN YOUR CAR, I said Roger why would you do that and he said MP was a dirty driver and he didn't like him, well guess what happened 1st in the heat, leading the A-FEA on 16th lap by a mile and they have a red and when Mike restarted the car the starter burned up and shorted all of the wiring out and we were left sitting.

Whats your take on driver introductions I liked it seems some others did to, you just have to be organized to do it maybe rotate classes but at least the fans would get a better up close view of driver with there car.

What ever happened to Buddy Jackson #47 that ran Lawton?

What ever happened to James Skinner from Whicita Falls?

Old Tony Pressley bought that #65 from Carl Wyatt that James drove he ran it a few times at end of season and then asked if I could help him a little, so over the winter we completely revamped that car, put coil overs on front and sprint tank crowerglide clutch etc. well I had learned from the old man early that weight was important so I started drilling all of the bolts out well I put 7/16th hole in the steering arm bolts (big mistake)n so we go to the city and in A-FEA Tony comes off turn 2 hits a rut breaking bolts off of RF steering arm and turning him head on into wall, man he flipped bad really busted his ass and then it caught on fire and they powered him pretty bad with the dry chemical ex. Tony was knocked out cold got him over to Hospital and they had to suction his lungs out from inhaling that powder. He spent a couple/three days there and learned a few new life experencies. I tell ever body there is a guy who owes me one for drilling those bolts out.

This was not my last try at drilling bolts out (ask Emmett) but thats another story.



I thought Cecil was his first name and how so correct you are on drivers knowing how to rebuild a motor or rear, not many can do it that drive today . Like a former race parts dist. in this area who now is out of the business once said "all you need to race today is a credit card and telephone" and how true that statement is as with the right amount of money you can have a car turn key to go race at your front door if you want it.

I remember asking Walter Judge who wrenched on Al Unser Jr. #71 Sprint car when they came through back in the early 80's on those Sagebrush series with the WoO and Judge said races are won in the garage , preperation and maintenance is everything , check and re check and do your homework at home and the classroom (meaning the race track) a passing grade won't be so hard to achieve, Kind of followed that philosophy and may not have won a lot of them but at least my car has finished more shows than it fell out of because of mechanical woes. Your correct a good crew chief is one I left out of the equation.

Seems to me today and this is more of on a local level than regional or national, that the driver is the main key, seems many get out there and try but not real successful at it and then there's the ones who have the knack/skill whatever you call it and can just go get it done and can get more out of the car than others, back 25 plus years ago seems it was not that way , if you had 40 cars in the field heck you could have 20 to 25 win on any given night, but now if you have say 30 in the field you might have 5 to 7 guys that could win on any night. Not sure if it has to do with everyone equipment is so equal today , you can just about buy anything you want , cause it is all mass produced as you well know or if the drivers are not what they use to be because of the cost of todays racing which will limit who all can get into the sport and that possibly leaves some of the ones who could be special out of it. Curious to hear your take on that statement.

I think they should get back to driver introductions , be better for the fans , those Intros for the Hutch Nat. were quite special, felt dam near like you was at Indy, sent chills up the back of your neck when they fired off the motors to start the race and the echo off the ceiling of the grandstands , only thing that was missing was C Ray did not release 100,000 ballons , which I am really surprised he did not think of that.

Last I heard Buddy Jackson was still living in Marlow,Ok. but that was some 10 or so years ago.

I tried drilling out 1/2 " bolts before and found out quickly that you need a very strong Drill Press and a lot of patients and a few extra drill bits of the size you are choosing to drill out.

Your beginning to make me think Roger had magical powers and really could lay the Voo Doo Hex on you if he did not like you.



jimmessmer
September 16, 2008 at 05:39:16 PM
Joined: 05/30/2008
Posts: 161
Reply

Man, you guys have got my head goin 200 MPH right now. Good stuff.

What ever became of Royce Harlan?

I guess about 1970 is when I flat got hooked on racing. Before that I'd been to races at Taft (even saw Pat Suchy drive), and plenty at the fairgrounds, but at 13 years old, I just thought the supers backin it in on the half mile was the coolest thing ever! Been hooked ever since.

Can you believe in 1970 Jackie Howerton won 13 out of 27 races at OKC?? Thats battin 500 any old day!

Saw Harold Leep run into Larry Holmans parked car in June, broke his leg & his face, made a great come-back in 71'. Ron Fowler did a great job as a sub in the Cates car.

At the Mar Car Nationals in July Howerton & Evard Humphrey "got togrther" cut Howertons tire off. Took me 10 years to get over that!

At that time my dad worked for Suchy, I got to work with some great drivers, these guys really made an impression on this kid. 70' Grady Wade, 71' Bobby Reynolds, 72' George Armstrong. In 73' Charlie Locke from Southwest Automotive got with Pat & that was the first year Benny Taylor drove. A lot of gold plating on that car, one of the prettiest race cars ever!

Got to work a lot with Aaron Madden at that time also, made a lot of trips to Tulsa & NCRA races just gettin to stooge for Madden & Saturdays at Tulsa got to work the Firestone truck with Jerry. Great times!! Every Saturday goin to Hardees in Tulsa on the way to the track!

Great engine builders?? Don't forget John Gilmore & Horace!! They won a LOT of races in the 70's powering the Plunkett car.

David, I do remember Opperman winning that Tulsa race. He was so far ahead, lapping cars, he didn't know he won till after the race!! The night before when he drove at OKC, I got an autographed picture from Jan. It's still around here somewhere.

Remember when we all made a "run for the gate" coming back from Tulsa? A whole caravan of race cars running about 80-90 down the turnpike.

With all the good there is always sad. Watched Jimmy Whitson get killed in 70' & Bob Clark in 71', oddly both happened during the fair.

The best part of all these years of racing is the people I've met & the friends I've made. Would not change a thing. Have much more to tell, more later;

Jim



DGM 7620
September 16, 2008 at 05:41:26 PM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: jdsprint71 on September 16 2008 at 02:47:41 PM

I thought Cecil was his first name and how so correct you are on drivers knowing how to rebuild a motor or rear, not many can do it that drive today . Like a former race parts dist. in this area who now is out of the business once said "all you need to race today is a credit card and telephone" and how true that statement is as with the right amount of money you can have a car turn key to go race at your front door if you want it.

I remember asking Walter Judge who wrenched on Al Unser Jr. #71 Sprint car when they came through back in the early 80's on those Sagebrush series with the WoO and Judge said races are won in the garage , preperation and maintenance is everything , check and re check and do your homework at home and the classroom (meaning the race track) a passing grade won't be so hard to achieve, Kind of followed that philosophy and may not have won a lot of them but at least my car has finished more shows than it fell out of because of mechanical woes. Your correct a good crew chief is one I left out of the equation.

Seems to me today and this is more of on a local level than regional or national, that the driver is the main key, seems many get out there and try but not real successful at it and then there's the ones who have the knack/skill whatever you call it and can just go get it done and can get more out of the car than others, back 25 plus years ago seems it was not that way , if you had 40 cars in the field heck you could have 20 to 25 win on any given night, but now if you have say 30 in the field you might have 5 to 7 guys that could win on any night. Not sure if it has to do with everyone equipment is so equal today , you can just about buy anything you want , cause it is all mass produced as you well know or if the drivers are not what they use to be because of the cost of todays racing which will limit who all can get into the sport and that possibly leaves some of the ones who could be special out of it. Curious to hear your take on that statement.

I think they should get back to driver introductions , be better for the fans , those Intros for the Hutch Nat. were quite special, felt dam near like you was at Indy, sent chills up the back of your neck when they fired off the motors to start the race and the echo off the ceiling of the grandstands , only thing that was missing was C Ray did not release 100,000 ballons , which I am really surprised he did not think of that.

Last I heard Buddy Jackson was still living in Marlow,Ok. but that was some 10 or so years ago.

I tried drilling out 1/2 " bolts before and found out quickly that you need a very strong Drill Press and a lot of patients and a few extra drill bits of the size you are choosing to drill out.

Your beginning to make me think Roger had magical powers and really could lay the Voo Doo Hex on you if he did not like you.



I to agree that there is probably some talent out there that gets past by because of money, guess it's always been that way but know days it is all mass produced and any body with money can get it. In the old days it was easier to build your own stuff out of what ever you could get. I know for a fact that several of the local guys could compete in other types of motorsports if they have the money.

I wonder what Larry & Jerry Madden are doing know? I drove down Eastern the other day going to S&W engine and noticed that the A&A building is still there.

I'm kind of ashamed of my self at Jr's funneral service I saw several of those old guys but didn't get time to talk to them as I had to get back to Tx to work truck race. What a blast it would be to sit and talk to these old guys!!

I wonder what Mr. Bill & Lela Beamon are up to now. It was one of the hardest things I every had to do was walk away from them. They treated me like family but one of the 5 things we have talked about that makes a deal work had to be changed and Bill was a long time friend of Steve Carbone, they had drag raced back in the real early days so Steve built Mr. Bill's motors. Steve & I had history from back in the Hill & Kearney days and I had bought an engine from him when Howard the Duck drove for the old man (much to Pat's disliking) and we had alot of issues with OFIXCO so Steve and I had issues from the get go, anyway after the '88 knoxville nats. when Estes was driving, he was more then fast enough to win that race we had built a special car and Steve was supposed to have freshened our best motor up but come to find out after Qualifing night when the cylinders all leaked about 15-20% he hadn't put pistons and rings in even though Bill had paid for them, I had enough and told Mr. Bill we needed to change something (engines) he wasn't receptive to that, he was happy with everything and everybody and we were very competitive but we were not ever going to be a championship team with those motors. So I made a change for him and left.

I am so proud of the Willinghams for restoring there old #6 Super it looks like they did a very nice job, I hope to see it in person as I have only seen the pictures that Kim Parson forwarded to me.

Wonder where Larry Holman is, last I heard he was in Colorado.

Guys I miss (deceased) Aaron Madden, Stan Schoenburg, Bobby Reynolds, Ronnie Brotherton, Tom Humphrey, Evard Humphrey and so many more of those guys I watched as a kid growing up.

Guy I miss the most is the old man biggest one influnce in my life, everything I have done in racing past, present and future is a part of him.

If Roger was still alive I would never under estimate his power!!

Wonder what ever happened to Jerry Leep he was a good photogapher.



brian26
September 16, 2008 at 05:54:11 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply
This message was edited on September 16, 2008 at 05:56:19 PM by brian26

Things seem to dissapear in the Marlow area. My Dad's last race car(6 banger mod), and possibly the Suchy 76(still waiting on that one), and I was there a lot last year, but no one seemed to know a Buddy Jackson. He must not be very social.

From what I've seen and heard, Hutch was every but as real as Indy, without the corporate money. Going to sprint cars just made it a race almost like anything else.(Thanks JD for taking me to the last 100" Hutch. I failed a math test the next day in college, but in this case, that was okay.)

One more- While skating on the ice in a boxvan, with my at the time NEW girlfriend, I saw a Gremlin bodied super(weird) trailering out of Marlow last year. Wanted to chase him down, but somehow my lady was scared of the ice and ....................well you can guess the rest of the story. Curious who's old car that was.




DGM 7620
September 17, 2008 at 12:15:38 PM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: jimmessmer on September 16 2008 at 05:39:16 PM

Man, you guys have got my head goin 200 MPH right now. Good stuff.

What ever became of Royce Harlan?

I guess about 1970 is when I flat got hooked on racing. Before that I'd been to races at Taft (even saw Pat Suchy drive), and plenty at the fairgrounds, but at 13 years old, I just thought the supers backin it in on the half mile was the coolest thing ever! Been hooked ever since.

Can you believe in 1970 Jackie Howerton won 13 out of 27 races at OKC?? Thats battin 500 any old day!

Saw Harold Leep run into Larry Holmans parked car in June, broke his leg & his face, made a great come-back in 71'. Ron Fowler did a great job as a sub in the Cates car.

At the Mar Car Nationals in July Howerton & Evard Humphrey "got togrther" cut Howertons tire off. Took me 10 years to get over that!

At that time my dad worked for Suchy, I got to work with some great drivers, these guys really made an impression on this kid. 70' Grady Wade, 71' Bobby Reynolds, 72' George Armstrong. In 73' Charlie Locke from Southwest Automotive got with Pat & that was the first year Benny Taylor drove. A lot of gold plating on that car, one of the prettiest race cars ever!

Got to work a lot with Aaron Madden at that time also, made a lot of trips to Tulsa & NCRA races just gettin to stooge for Madden & Saturdays at Tulsa got to work the Firestone truck with Jerry. Great times!! Every Saturday goin to Hardees in Tulsa on the way to the track!

Great engine builders?? Don't forget John Gilmore & Horace!! They won a LOT of races in the 70's powering the Plunkett car.

David, I do remember Opperman winning that Tulsa race. He was so far ahead, lapping cars, he didn't know he won till after the race!! The night before when he drove at OKC, I got an autographed picture from Jan. It's still around here somewhere.

Remember when we all made a "run for the gate" coming back from Tulsa? A whole caravan of race cars running about 80-90 down the turnpike.

With all the good there is always sad. Watched Jimmy Whitson get killed in 70' & Bob Clark in 71', oddly both happened during the fair.

The best part of all these years of racing is the people I've met & the friends I've made. Would not change a thing. Have much more to tell, more later;

Jim



Your right about Johnny & Horace they were pretty good car builders to!!

This is part of what I'm saying guys like that could build there own stuff, you know Benny built a few of those okie sprinter cars, McCutchin, Fat Mike, Walt built his own cars, look at all those 6 cyl mods. that 90% were home built.

Remember what color Holman's car was that Leep ran into?

Can still see it like yesterday Leep spinning Cox and Wayne slowly driving around the bottom until Leep caught him then they both went into that turn 3 wall where Holman's car was setting, everybody knew it was going to happen!!

Remember the Harold Arter # 50 that Bobby Reynolds drove that thing was bad ass on dry slick and had the coolest sounding engine the pipes ran out to the rear torsion tubes, I believe it had TRACO or SNYDER motors which the old man told me cost $5000.00 in those days.

Remember when an R-1 and a 13.5 Firestone was the hot set-up for a 6 cyl & a Big Jaloony & GDYR rain tire were the hot set-up on a Super!!

I remember when Walt could win at 81 SPDY on low profile tires and everybody else was on rear grooves.

Remember Big Earl from Enid? Wonder what happened to him?

Your right about the old mans cars back then they were pretty showy, he and Schoenburg liked alot of that plating I can remember that #39 CAE stretched sprint that Stan drove during practice in '73 Stan was going down the back stretch and 1 of those big 3/4 gold plated heims broke on the drag link and Stan rolled up to the 3rd wall and stopped, I walked out of the infield and he said little buddy I just about busted my ass!!

Don't lose that pic of OPP it might not mean much to some but anybody from that era would understand it's value!!(priceless)



jimmessmer
September 17, 2008 at 12:48:32 PM
Joined: 05/30/2008
Posts: 161
Reply

Yeah, I hadn't thought about that in years, Holmans car was light GREEN!

In Tulsa about 75' or 76' Thad Dosier came down one night to drive the 8 car for dad. The hot set up then was the drag tire on RR. Thad went to the trailer, told us to put 2 diamods on the rear & 2 ribs up front so he could drive it. Went right out & won his heat & finised top 5 in the A.

At Enid in 74' Jay Woodside drove the 8, I remember we had to go dig up some GIANT throttle springs because Jay couldn't pick his right foot up!

1970 a Sunday show at 81, Grady Wade went off turn 2, this is in Pats car, blew through the cornfield off the back straight, came back on & never lifted, all 4 wheels off the ground. After he pulled off he honestly told Pat he didn't understand why the ol motor kicked a rod!

We are kind of throwback. We show up with our open trailer & 10 year old wheels & do the best we can. Even managed to win a couple the last few years. You are exactly right though, races are won at the shop, doin your homework. In these days I don't know anybody who puts in more hours & does more with less than Ernie. That guy lives to race & works hous & hours doing it mostly himself. He does consider it an honor when MP drives the car, & I know Mike is real frustrated that he hasn't won in # 11 YET!! He'll be back.

Man I've got some Schoenburgh stories!! For another time. More later.



brian26
September 17, 2008 at 01:13:38 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply

Good stuff guys.




DGM 7620
September 17, 2008 at 01:15:44 PM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: jimmessmer on September 17 2008 at 12:48:32 PM

Yeah, I hadn't thought about that in years, Holmans car was light GREEN!

In Tulsa about 75' or 76' Thad Dosier came down one night to drive the 8 car for dad. The hot set up then was the drag tire on RR. Thad went to the trailer, told us to put 2 diamods on the rear & 2 ribs up front so he could drive it. Went right out & won his heat & finised top 5 in the A.

At Enid in 74' Jay Woodside drove the 8, I remember we had to go dig up some GIANT throttle springs because Jay couldn't pick his right foot up!

1970 a Sunday show at 81, Grady Wade went off turn 2, this is in Pats car, blew through the cornfield off the back straight, came back on & never lifted, all 4 wheels off the ground. After he pulled off he honestly told Pat he didn't understand why the ol motor kicked a rod!

We are kind of throwback. We show up with our open trailer & 10 year old wheels & do the best we can. Even managed to win a couple the last few years. You are exactly right though, races are won at the shop, doin your homework. In these days I don't know anybody who puts in more hours & does more with less than Ernie. That guy lives to race & works hous & hours doing it mostly himself. He does consider it an honor when MP drives the car, & I know Mike is real frustrated that he hasn't won in # 11 YET!! He'll be back.

Man I've got some Schoenburgh stories!! For another time. More later.



Baby poop Green that thing was ugly.

I remember that deal with, if I remember right you guys had 2 even diamonds no stagger if any that was old school I remember the track slicked up and he was fast everybody else was bouncing up and down on those Drag 500's

I think the springs were just part of Woodside I don't know what happened to his foot do you? I remember seeing him at a Fair race driving a IMCA sprint car probably '68/'69 and his foot was that way then.

When you guys won this year I told DJ guess you don't have to have all of this to win, I was proud of you guys, I know you'll have worked hard to win!!!

One of my favorite Stan stories is the one where the guy came in in a Cad. to get his car worked on any way the guy was not happy and came back in a couple of days to bitch at Pat, well Pat won't to hit him but the guy kept saying I'll sue you even though he was MF'in & SOB'in the old man. Lloyd tried to get him to leave but he kept jaw'in, well Stan heard all of this comotion going on and slipped out the back and came through front door like he was a customer and waited for a minute or two then just pile drove him with one of those #9 fists that he had. If I remember right Lloyd drug him out to his car and put him in it. Next day the guy showed up with of all people Bill Minor and Larry Goodspeed well he proceeded to tell them that Pat and Lloyd (maybe your dad to) had kicked his ass and wanted them arrested. Lloyd told them we never touched him some customer walked in and he told him to shut-up so the customer punched him out.

 



jdsprint71
September 17, 2008 at 05:22:09 PM
Joined: 05/02/2005
Posts: 1336
Reply

All that I have to say is maybe you guys should write a book on this stuff, sure have enjoyed reading this , some I can relate to and other stuff have not heard about but still ties altogether from the 70's and 80's in the racing from this area , Pretty amazing, have seen you guys for the last 4 decades at tracks OKC and about everywhere else in this 3 state area and have really never talked , just passing by waves and nods. But can say that this is some good reading and memories and really getting a kick of it.



jimmessmer
September 17, 2008 at 09:32:16 PM
Joined: 05/30/2008
Posts: 161
Reply

O.K. How about 1971? This is the year NCRA was born. After seeing the big red white & blue logo & seeing some of the races on the schedule, we really were big time! Thought we'd be nationwide someday. Almost made it, I guess the zenith for NCRA was late 70's, early 80's, goin to knoxville & all that. I do agree we lost something when the 100" cars went away. They were special, they were OURS!

Yeah I know NCRA is still going strong & I hope it keeps growing, but they don't even come to OKC anymore. Man in 71' when they ran the pavement at Shreveport that was big time, thought we were going big like USAC. Aaron madden won the only NCRA race on asphalt!

By June of 71' Howerton had already won 6 A features, & I'm sure the other guys were glad to see him go to USAC. It was a big deal for us around here, thought for sure he would be at the Speedway in a year or two. Man things changed fast about that time & Jack never got that big chance. But Opp did the hair-cut & went Indy racing and made us all proud!

Emmett started driving Doc Garretts car in OKC & the Zink car in Tulsa & NCRA. I believe Jim Morrison was building the engines for Docs car & they sounded way different. When Emmett came out to wheel pack, that thing sounded like a freight train! Speaking of funny sounding, it was about this time or maybe 72' when first Jerry Wilson & grady Wade, then later Leep in the Cates car tried out that 180 degree crankshaft that fired 2 cylinders at once! Talk about a whole different sound. Wonder why nobody kept that thing goin?

Aaron came out of retirement in 71' drove that beautiful # 1 Walker car, white with blue stripes. It was just sexy! I also believe it was that year Terry Linville turned over in hot laps at Enid & lost his arm. I was there for that & it was pretty ugly.

This was also the year Reynolds drove Suchys car & our regular Saturday deal was Enid. Think we won 3 or 4 that year up there. There was a little Tastee Freeze on hwy 74 just north of crescent we would stop at & reynolds would get us all an ice cream cone. Good times! We would put everything in the back of that green econoline van Pat had, & all of us kids would ride on a tire on the way up. Big fun. More later.



jdsprint71
September 18, 2008 at 09:49:19 AM
Joined: 05/02/2005
Posts: 1336
Reply

I always wondered if NCRA had kept the promoters banded together like they were in the 70's and early 80's if the NCRA would have expanded and grown, they sure had a great head start on everyone else some 8 yrs. on the WoO , always thought Emmitt H. sorta took the idea of NCRA and expanded it with his series the ASCS and look at it now , Regions all over the country and a Nat. tour next year. Just a shame the promoters of this area took the me/I approach instead of all staying focused on the same page, I am sure everyone has an opinion on the why's and if's but sure would have been nice to have seen it really grow and expand.

David, Was it tough working for an owner like Bill Beaman back then, I mean you hear it all the time today about the owners in WoO and such spending lots of money and wanting instant success and having no patience, was it that way with your deal back then?, wondered about Stephens with Ofixico and even Zink with the 52 car if they applied the pressure for those who drove for them?, Heck today you can be hired and fired in such a short time ,before you can even get any continuity going, just not much loyalty and patients in people these days anymore , especially when it comes to spending money and not showing any success.





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