Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Still haven’t seen the list of excuses. Guess you and WingedSpeed are still collaborating on one. While we wait, let’s take a look at some facts from last nights feature 410 race from BAPS Motor Speedway. 

Lance starts in P13. During the course of the race he manages somehow  to pass Zearfoss, Shaffer, Kemenah, Reitzel, Macedo, McMahon, and Larson (granted he was a dnf,but still counts as a pass in the box scores). Didn’t have to pass Hodnett, DD, or Lucas because he started and stayed in front of them. Despite beating fully 1/3 of the starting field in this years Knoxville Nationals A main, the 69k is the one team that “fell of it’s horse”. Gee, not sure then, what that means for the schmucks they beat.

So? One race doesn't determine what a team is all about......whether it be a show like the Mansfield deal or the Tuscarora 50.  I also don't allow myself to be overly swayed by what they do at Port and WG.  I'm not sure what you may have against the 69k team.....that's up to you. As for me I have nothing against the team or Dewease, I try to be objective in that regard but I do take issue with some of the cheerleaders.....and too with some of the naysayers. I owe you an apology for my first post, I'm sorry I was so stupidly blunt. Not many fans realize that when the Outlaws first started coming to WG the Posse won 5 of the first 8 races there. Once the Outlaws got a handle on the Grove the dominance began and it lasted a long time....up until Steve and Sammy got old and Donny was about the only Outlaw that had the place pretty well figured out. The new young guns making there way there are going to start putting a lot of pressure on the Posse again, as they gain WG experience. JMO, so we'll see.

Guess what? Nobody wins every race, no excuses necessary

Lance has won 11 out of 24, approximately 46%

Schatz is 17 for 52, about 33%

Yea, yea, different competition, we all know that. Nobody is saying he's better than Schatz.... but Lance beat him at the Grove this year

WoOgot ahandleon the Grove???? Or did they change the rules to slow the PA cars ???? It was the latter.

Yeh, right! LOL! Another excuse?

Yea Right. Not that it has anything to do with today but, After that 5 to 3 start the outlaws did not suddenly get a handle on the Grove. After starting with the slogan "Run what you brung" that all changed when the Posse brung their big blocks which is what those first ass whoppins were with. Thus was born the 410 cubic inch limit. Now if anyone was not around to know that which I know Tenter was there is no sense argueing the point because that is the facts. I will not respond to any reply to this post because anyone who disagrees simply does not know the history of sprint car racing so there no sense argueing with them about it.

Okay.....let's talk history. The Big Blocks were in use in PA when the WoO first started coming to the Grove. Ted Johnson had implemented a 410 cubic inch rule for the touring series. Think about what you re saying. By your thoughts, the Posse drivers weren't winning by out driving the Outlaws.....instead they wanted and needed to run their 520 cubic inch (or run whatch brung ) Big Blocks in order to beat them. Is that what you are saying? Sure sounds like it. Isn't that kind of like taking a 410 today and putting an ass whoppin on a 360? I give the Posse drivers throughout history more credit than that. They didn't need the Big Block advantage to be competitive.  What's true today was true back then.......the best sprint car drivers are from all over and they are on the WoO tour. And it takes more than a few laps to figure out and master the Grove.

Not so much that they "needed" the big blocks to beat the outlaws, just the fact that big blocks were cheap horsepower that worked well on the 1/2 miles so that's what a lot of teams had. They could of cared less about the outlaws. The outlaws were nothing yet. The best drivers in the country in that era moved to PA because they had the most sprint car tracks, most well funded owners and the highest purses. PA also had a cast iron engine rule up until somewhere around the early/mid 90's just like the all stars did at the time. A lot of those WOO dominant years, they were running aluminum block 410's vs. cast iron 410's of the locals. The WOO "leveled the field" by turning it into a money game which is still the case today.

A

How about the 51 car, minus a motor issue, he was fixing to be 2 wins and a second. Against Nascars finest. @ 22 years old.

I'm not getting into a pissing match with the uninformed. I'll just say this. The WoO were running 430 -440 motors when they first started, NOT 410. When they went into PA they started getting beat . Then the rule changed to 440 limit, still, Wolfgang was beating them with a downsized big block. Then the WoO went to 410. I know people, even blazer00 has said when rule changes happened with tires it took a year or so to figure them out. Just think of changing from a huge big block to a 410 , and on top of that, from a motor that weighed 50 lbs more to a small block . I'd say that could take a couple years for the teams to figure out. I'm not making excuses at all. I don't even get into the Posse vs. the world crap. I'm just pointing out a couple things that many newer fans over look when making asses of themselves arguing about it.

No doubt Ted Johnson forced the aluminum 410 on to the PA scene (and all over actually). And the PA tracks did care less about the Outlaws because it was plain they generated more revenue, and better purses. And he implemented the 410 rule in th '80's.  Not saying that the PA drivers didn't continue with the cast iron for their 410's or even the big blocks when the Outlaws weren't in town......I wouldn't know that not having been there. But I thought I did read that somewhere years ago. As for the cost savings.....Johnson initially may have had that in mind......run what ya brung was going to go through the roof cost wise also. Sooner or later the big dollar teams were going to go to aluminum. And I dare say the richest owners in PA would have gone there at some point, also, with or without the Outlaw rule.  Like Wiekert and Hamilton for example. And don't overlook the fact that back in the '70's the sprint car ranks discovered just how much weight reduction meant to winning, also. So aluminum blocks were going to come regardless. IMO for every good thing the WoO brought to the sport, one negative sticks out like a sore thumb. They aren't honestly really trying to do anything concrete as far as cost reduction. And why would they? Their teams have the most bucks.......so they sure as hell won't nuetralize that advantage. And as long as one group maintains the control, that will always be the case. The tracks need to take the power back.

Those aluminum BIG big blocks were not cheap by any means. But only a couple teams in PA had them. The steel big blocks were a big cost savings for many, but it's still all relative.  It would really be interesting to know what a no holds barred aluminum big block would cost and what it would run like present day.

Your list is pretty much perfect but I would like to add "a cool refreshment" to your list!

  By golly you're right. But I must admit my preference for "a cool refreshment" has changed some over the years. 

No doubt Ted Johnson knew he was reversing any advantage the Posse had at home over the Outlaws in the beginning. And I agree with you 100% that the transition to the 410 limit was tougher on the Posse drivers than the Outlaws. Johnson sure as hell wasn't going to let everything be equal if he could help it. If he had, he would have been jeopardising his own brand. The other thing that Johnson had to do, and it still holds true today, is to do everything he could to help insure that the Outlaws take home the top money night after night. Those of us that were around back then knew that the PA area was a damn tough place to win at. I watched Opperman and Weld and later Wolfgang head to PA for the racing. And they all had great results against tough competition. But hell, those three would have been the show no matter where they settled to race. As for Wolfgang's years in PA........he and Keith Kauffman had as great of rivalry as any two drivers have had.  I think If I remember right, those two finished 1st or 2nd like 90 some times while racing each other during Wolfgang's four years in PA. I know it was an awesome number.